Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all electric cars beginning in February 2010

The information below came from Darryl McMahon who is the president(?) of one of the Canadian EV associations. Why do you think this is happening? Dr. Henry Makow of Winnipeg, the inventor of the hit parlor game "Scruplus", has some interesting conspiracy theories. Anybody here have ideas?

"Electric car sales here are effectively frozen as the Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all electric cars beginning in February 2010. This is causing a lot of confusion, as the same government has promised large incentives for electric cars starting in July. "

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Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

What do you expect man... We have a scientific dictatorship,; ALL VEHICLES SHOULD BE RUNNING ON ELECTRONS WHICH COMPOSE ALL OF EXISTENCE... If you really think about it, we are living in the TWILIGHT ZONE, having combustion engines still around???? IN 2010???

Check out the vid - who killed the electric car. (google it) - update: its on my site: http://criticalunity.org/videos.html?task=videodirectlink&id=400

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

vancouver_gadgeteer wrote:

The information below came from Darryl McMahon who is the president(?) of one of the Canadian EV associations. Why do you think this is happening? Dr. Henry Makow of Winnipeg, the inventor of the hit parlor game "Scruplus", has some interesting conspiracy theories. Anybody here have ideas? Electric car sales here are effectively frozen as the Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all electric cars beginning in February 2010. This is causing a lot of confusion, as the same government has promised large incentives for electric cars starting in July."

Guy's, before you post a rumour, did'ya ever think to email, write, or just ring up the Ontario Ministry of Transport? It's called checking a source! Yeah, I know, tedious and boring, but old Hunter S, is no longer with us!

So why not give it a go, check before you post??

Ontario has elected one of the world most impressively progressive environment conscious governments. The policy program and incentives for EV's adoption is astonishing. They even have a phone number, answered by a real person, to answer questions: (Bob Nichols, Communications Branch 416-327-1158, Ontario Ministry of Transportation. Ontario.ca/transportation )!

Ring, check, post!

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Okay, well, I wouldn't be surprised if was true,

- the truth however is in my post... Check it out man... Its something REALLY to get excited about;

---> not the hockey game... - Sorry, we have to get our priorities straight.

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

dudemanaroo wrote:

Okay, well, I wouldn't be surprised if was true,the truth however is in my post... Check it out man... Its something REALLY to get excited about; not the hockey game... - Sorry, we have to get our priorities straight.

Ah, maybe I missed something? The documentary, "who killed the electric car", is not really very new! (Maybe it improves in Dutch!). The commentary really adds nothing to a now very old, and in the light of all the new EV's being released, irrelevant debate.

Most conspiracy theories enjoy a brief period of credibility to the gullible, then die away. Only to be rehashed in the silly season, or on a really slow news day. Yet conspiracy theories abound, usually peddled by people who are too lazy or too crazy, to acquire any sense of logical perception, gained by the hard work involved in unbiased fact gathering.

I know this is dull and boring, but so are most human beings. Real conspiracies are usually tawdry, sad,affairs whose only distinction, is how such normally intelligent people, could prove to be such pathetically inept bunglers! Watergate etc...

Still, National Enquirer makes more money than the Now York Times, so conspiracy has it's fans!

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

marcopolo wrote:
vancouver_gadgeteer wrote:

The information below came from Darryl McMahon who is the president(?) of one of the Canadian EV associations. Why do you think this is happening? Dr. Henry Makow of Winnipeg, the inventor of the hit parlor game "Scruplus", has some interesting conspiracy theories. Anybody here have ideas? Electric car sales here are effectively frozen as the Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all electric cars beginning in February 2010. This is causing a lot of confusion, as the same government has promised large incentives for electric cars starting in July."

Guy's, before you post a rumour, did'ya ever think to email, write, or just ring up the Ontario Ministry of Transport? It's called checking a source! Yeah, I know, tedious and boring, but old Hunter S, is no longer with us!

So why not give it a go, check before you post??

Ontario has elected one of the world most impressively progressive environment conscious governments. The policy program and incentives for EV's adoption is astonishing. They even have a phone number, answered by a real person, to answer questions: (Bob Nichols, Communications Branch 416-327-1158, Ontario Ministry of Transportation. Ontario.ca/transportation )!

Ring, check, post!

Do you actually believe POLITICIANS and/or BUREAUCRATS????

If you do, please watch this Youtube video, an rare expose by CBC :
Electric car maker:Ottawa blocking its sale in Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDOp8CcN4w0&feature=youtube_gdata

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

vancouver_gadgeteer wrote:

Do you actually believe POLITICIANS and/or BUREAUCRATS????

Look, I don't want to be unkind, but before you ask someone to listen to you, think about what you say,and check your facts.

The news story you cite is about the Federal government not Ontario. The report is completely biased and doesn't include any explanation from the Canadian Ministry of Transport.

This is called Balance!

It's not a good idea to just adopt a position and only listen to those who agree with you! The Canadian regulations are very similar to the rest of the developed world. (the US excepted). The fact that ' Neigbourhood Vehicles' are incapable of campatible speeds with normal traffic, is a totally resonable reason for restricting the use of such vehicles.

This is not anti-EV, but anti-low speed vehicles.

Canada has over 4,000 registered EV vehicles, including Vectrix.

Like I say, question, check your source, question, check other veiwpoints, question, reason, check, then post!

Hard work?

Or just listen to ole Earl down at the local tavern, y'know the longer you stay, the more he makes sense!

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Dear marcopolo,
I would welcome you to check the source. Please feel free to start at
http://www.10n10.ca/e/Ontario%20EV%20Ban.shtml.

The Ontario government's record on environmental consciousness is rather imperfect. I supported the current government in it's first election due to it's commitment to shut down all coal fired electric generation in the province by 2007. Well, other than the one they knocked down before it fell down (Lakeview), all the coal-fired stations they inherited all still operational, including Nanticoke (you can do your own fact checking on this).

Would you be so kind as to tell me which "astonishing" EV incentives are currently effective in Ontario (May 30, 2010), other than the Retail Sales Tax rebate (maximum $1,000) which will be terminated on June 30, 2010? You see, I live here, and am an EV owner, and that's the only incentive of which I am aware (RST 703, alternate fuel vehicles, which also includes natural gas and propane).

We certainly have rumours of better incentives to come, possibly as soon as July 2010, but nothing concrete.

Darryl McMahon
(By way of keeping facts straight, I am not currently the President of any electric vehicle association. I was a co-founder of the Electric Vehicle Association of Canada, was President of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa many years ago, and Chaired the majority the Ottawa Electrathons [1998-2002]. Currently, I am a member of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa, Electric Mobility Canada and Historian for the Electric Auto Association.)

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Actually, the current issue is about highway-capable EVs in Ontario, not low speed vehicles.

[Tangent: In Canada, we use the term LSV (low speed vehicle) as the equivalent of the NEV (neighborhood electric vehicle) in the U.S. In Ontario, we torpedoed LSVs by a different method - we legalized them, then saddled them with a bunch of safety rules (effectively, the same standards as used for passenger cars capable of travelling at 200 km/h), which no NEV/LSV manufacturer is prepared to meet for a relatively small market.]

The current ban on licensing electric vehicles in Ontario is not documented on government Web sites - that's one of the issues we are having in trying to counter the 'policy'. The Ontario government has since admitted to a licensing 'moratorium', but is vague on what it covers. Originally, we were told it only covered conversions, but then we found a factory Jet Electravan imported from the U.S. into Ontario that got caught by the unpublished policy. Ministry of Transportation Ontario (MTO) then told us that was a mistake, but in over a month have not been able to resolve that 'mistake'. A more recent version of the story (as told to my Member of Provincial Parliament) is that the current ban covers all on-road electric vehicles except those sold as new by a dealer. That's the beauty of having unpublished policies - you can keep revising them as you find convenient.

So, currently in Ontario, you can license any NEW fully-electric (no hybrid aspect) vehicle. Unfortunately, there aren't any.

We have no domestic producers of highway-capable electric cars in Canada, which means we would have to import them. To import a vehicle, it has to appear on the Registrar's list. (http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safevehicles/importation/usa/vafus/list2/Section3_0.htm) I just looked at it again, and it does not have entries for AC Propulsion, Pleiades, Tesla, etc.

So here's the current box score for EVs in Ontario (May 30, 2010).

You can license an LSV in Ontario, if it meets Ontario's unique standards. No such vehicles exist. Homebuilts are explicitly excluded from Ontario's definition of LSV.

You can license a highway capable EV in Ontario, so long as it meets CMVSS (domestic production) or is legal to import per the Registrar of Imported Vehicles. There is no domestic production, and no EV producers appear on the Registrar's list of manufacturers, with the exception of EVT for specific models of electric motorcycles. So, in effect, no such vehicles.

You cannot license a conversion or older factory electric per current, unpublished practice of the MTO.

Those are facts. Please feel free to check them. It's tough enough trying to get rational responses from MTO officials without taking time to respond to incorrect statements on forums like this.

Darryl McMahon

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Darryl McMahon wrote:

Dear marcopolo, I would welcome you to check the source. Please feel free to start at
http://www.10n10.ca/e/Ontario%20EV%20Ban.shtml.

Firstly, let me start by thanking you for writing into this thread. It's always far more satisfying to hear things from the actual source.

However, substantiating your facts by quoting your own articles, really doesn't establish anything!It would help if you quoted directly from independent, recognised, respected news sources.

Darryl Mcmahon wrote:

Would you be so kind as to tell me which "astonishing" EV incentives are currently effective in Ontario (May 30, 2010), other than the Retail Sales Tax rebate (maximum $1,000) which will be terminated on June 30, 2010? You see, I live here, and am an EV owner, and that's the only incentive of which I am aware (RST 703, alternate fuel vehicles, which also includes natural gas and propane.

OMT Stated policy:

The next steps to-wards greener vehicles in Ontario. The McGuinty government is calling on all Ontarians to support an ambitious electric vehicle challenge that will result in one in 20 passenger vehicles on the province's roads being electric by the year 2020: "1 in 20 by 2020."

Transportation is the largest and fastest-growing sector for producing greenhouse gas emissions in Ontario and passenger vehicles are a major part of that. Having one in 20 passenger vehicles be electric by 2020 will not only help the environment, but it will strengthen our economy by driving innovation, revitalising the global auto sector and creating jobs. And the Ontario government will provide world-leading incentives to help families make the smart environmental choice to drive electric vehicles.

Purchase rebates to encourage sales - The McGuinty government will offer consumers a rebate to help reduce the higher cost of purchasing electric vehicles. The rebate will be available for plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicles purchased after July 1, 2010 and will provide between $4,000 and $10,000 towards the purchase of an electric vehicle depending on the vehicle's battery capacity. The high-end of the rebate would be the highest in Canada and amongst the highest in the world.

Rewarding plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicle purchasers with Green Vehicle Licence Plates - To reward early adopters, the Ontario government will introduce a unique green vehicle licence plate for plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicles. It will provide recognition to electric vehicle purchasers, allowing them to use Ontario's High-Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes for a limited time (5 years starting 2010), even if there is just one person in the vehicle. They will also be allowed access to public recharging facilities at select Ontario government and GO Transit parking lots. The University of Toronto and private companies such as Walmart Canada will designate priority parking spots for vehicles with green plates.

Electric Vehicles integrated into the Ontario Public Service (OPS) vehicle fleet - The McGuinty government will lead the way in building consumer demand by purchasing electric vehicles for the OPS fleet. Twenty per cent of eligible new Ontario Public Sector passenger vehicle purchases will be electric by 2020.

Support for public charging infrastructure - Ontario will build infrastructure for charging electric vehicles through a combination of private sector companies and Ontario's existing electricity utilities. The McGuinty government will take the lead in supplying this infrastructure by ensuring recharging capacity is integrated in parking facilities owned by the Ontario government and GO Transit parking facilities for public to use. Ontario is working with the private sector and electricity organizations to develop business models for recharging facilities that will work within Ontario's regulated electricity market.

Source; OMT.

No Government is perfect, but it looks to me like the Government of Ontario's heart is in the right place!

Darryl McMahon wrote:

By way of keeping facts straight, I am not currently the President of any electric vehicle association. I was a co-founder of the Electric Vehicle Association of Canada, was President of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa many years ago, and Chaired the majority the Ottawa Electrathons (1998-2002). Currently, I am a member of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa, Electric Mobility Canada and Historian for the Electric Auto Association.

Thank you for that clarification. As I say, without hearing from you in person, readers could only go by information supplied, probably unauthorised, in your name, by your supporters. The accuracy of such information should never be accepted as accurate, until verified by yourself.

As to your claims that the OMT had ceased to register EV's, I checked.

OMT deny such a ban exists and advanced irrefutable evidence of proof!
We also checked with the Canadian Federal Government. No such ban exists!
We then contacted a Ontario EV enthusiast who said that, not only no such ban exists, but he had just registered an EV in Ontario!

I contacted OMT and enquired whether I would have any problem registering the new Nissan Leaf,and received a positive response! Likewise, Ford EV,? already approved, (normal checks required)! Vectrix VX1, no problem, (insurance)!

Since there is not one single, independent respected news source willing or even interested in substantiating your complaint, you may understand scepticism.

Although I have no evidence, a shrewd would seem to indicate that you may be the problem. Or maybe the safety features of your vehicle(s) (Like 'neighbourhood' EV's) may not fit the provisions of the HTA.

On a brighter note, I have enjoyed reading your historic descriptions of early EV's. The collection of this history is a truly worthwhile pursuit. Well Done!

However, your claims to credibility are not enhanced by your connection with VancouverGadgeteer.

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Marcopolo wrote:

Quote:

However, substantiating your facts by quoting your own articles, really doesn't establish anything!It would help if you quoted directly from independent, recognised, respected news sources.

True enough, however, my article includes several links to letters by people affected by the ban or responding to it, and articles in the media substantiating my claim, e.g., http://www.emcottawawest.ca/20100416/Lifestyle/Moratorium+placed+on+registering+and+licencing+electric+power+vehicles. That's an article by a professional journalist who checked his facts, and MTO confirmed the "moratorium" to him. I just figured that it would simpler to refer to the main link rather than re-list all the links in that article.

I won't bother quoting the McGuinty / MTO EV vision blather. That is not fact, that's campaign material. I asked you for the 'astonishing incentives' that you said were in place for EVs in Ontario, today. You have provided political promises that may or may not materialize in the future. This is what I alluded to in my original article by "... the same government has promised large incentives for electric cars starting in July." Rumours out of MTO suggest that conversions will not be entitled to any of these incentives. However, that is not fact (yet). The McGuinty government, sadly, has a history of making grand statements on environmental matters, and then not living up to them. I have previously mentioned the coal-fired electrical generation. Note that the material you quoted was announced in July of 2009 - almost a year ago. Since then, nothing but rumours. Even the 'green' plates are still unavailable.

There is no federal ban on electric vehicles in Canada. I have not claimed such a thing.

I agree that there is no issue with licensing a mass-manufactured electric vehicle in Ontario, if one were actually available. The Nissan Leaf is not available in Ontario, and according to Nissan Canada, won't be until at least December 2011. For other OEM EVs, I don't have any availability dates for their vehicles being sold in Canada.

So, let's review again what I actually said.

1) You can license a new (non-LSV) electric vehicle from an OEM dealer in Ontario today, if such vehicles were legal for import or actually existed for sale here. With the exception of two electric motorcycle manufacturers, they do not. So, in effect you can license a dragon, if you can find one.

2) You can license a new, mass-manufactured electric LSV in Ontario, so long as it meets Ontario's unique standards for LSVs. No such vehicle exists. In effect, you can license a unicorn, if you can find one.

3) The MTO is currently preventing the licensing of electric conversions via an unannounced, unpublished and secret campaign within MTO. If someone is getting a conversion licensed as electric and fit for on-road use, they are somehow getting around the MTO "moratorium". I understand this is possible by visiting some small, rural license offices, that don't keep up with Ministry memos. The last communication I have from MTO (about a week ago) is that they are working on a solution that will allow them to lift the "moratorium", but there is no date commitment (which is what we have been told since early April). If you stop a practice with no commitment to resume it, that fits my definition of a ban, not a moratorium.

In summary, if you can license an EV in Ontario today, it does not exist. If it exists, you cannot license it (with the exception of two types of motorcyles).

Regarding your contacts with MTO, you asked if you can license a vehicle not sold in Ontario (Nissan Leaf). Ditto for any Ford EV. Can you buy a Leaf or Ford EV where you live today? If you can, congratulations! Here, it is not the case. The Vectrix and EVT motorcycles are the exceptions I already noted. (Of course, Ontario has another wrinkle to discourage electric motorcycles here - you can find that on my main article page as well.)

Regarding my EVs and Ontario HTA. I have registered 4 electric cars and 2 electric motorcycles here since 1979 without issues. My current EV conversion is licensed, and presumably grandfathered. I am not raising the issue on my own behalf, but because others have encountered problems since February and turned to me as someone knowledgeable about the EV registration process. What I learned as a result incited me to raise the issue on the Web page, and try working with MTO officials behind the scenes to get the issue regarding the licensing of EV conversions resolved. So far, no success.

I don't know which Ontario EV enthusiast you contacted that claimed there is no such licensing ban for EV conversions, but if you check the main article I wrote, you will find letters there from other Ontario EV enthusiasts that make it clear the ban is in effect. You might even look at the responses we got from MTO officials acknowledging the "moratorium".

In the interest of clarity, I claim no connection to VancouverGadgeteer. He or she quoted material I had written.

I hope this clarifies what I have said, and the facts of the situation. However, I suspect that won't be the case. I really hope you read the original Web article (http://www.10n10.ca/e/Ontario%20EV%20Ban.shtml), because refuting misinterpretations in this forum is simply too time-consuming.

Darryl McMahon

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Darryl McMahon wrote:

"So, let's review again what I actually said."

Yes, let's! What you actually said was (sic) ""Electric car sales here are effectively frozen as the Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all electric cars beginning in February 2010."

What is it that you don't understand about the word ALL?

Dragons, unicorns? You admit that there are EV's being registered, just not yours.

Why not simply write a far more honest and truthful article (although less sensationalist), headed " I and other(named)EV enthusiasts are having unreasonable difficulties registering our homebuilt EV conversions in Ontario because of prejudice from State official(s) (insert name(s))" ???

Such an article would have the same effect, and contain an element of credibility!

Quote:

The MTO is currently preventing the licensing of electric conversions via an unannounced, unpublished and secret campaign within MTO. If someone is getting a conversion licensed as electric and fit for on-road use, they are somehow getting around the MTO "moratorium". I understand this is possible by visiting some small, rural license offices, that don't keep up with Ministry memos.

Regarding my EVs and Ontario HTA. I have registered 4 electric cars and 2 electric motorcycles here since 1979 without issues. My current EV conversion is licensed, and presumably grandfathered. I am not raising the issue on my own behalf, but because others have encountered problems since February and turned to me as someone knowledgeable about the EV registration process. What I learned as a result incited me to raise the issue on the Web page, and try working with MTO officials behind the scenes to get the issue regarding the licensing of EV conversions resolved. So far, no success.

'Secret campaigns', 'behind the scenes' 'rumours', "not actually me, but someone told me',! Good grief, do you wonder why your overly dramatic, sensationalist, conspiracy theory lacks credibility?

Quote:

In the interest of clarity, I claim no connection to VancouverGadgeteer. He or she quoted material I had written.

Accepted!

Quote:

I really hope you read the original Web article because refuting misinterpretations in this forum is simply too time-consuming.

Hmmm.., Darryl, without wishing to seem too patronising, if you left out all the silly conspiracy theory nonsense that so taints your contributions, and destroys credibility, some of your technical and historic material is not only interesting but well written. It's a pity you can't separate the two.

The above is meant sincerely and without malice. I am sure you possess valuable knowledge to impart, the silly, sensationalist, conspiracy stuff, just makes it hard work!

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

OK, let's try again.

1) There is a "moratorium" / ban on EV conversions being licensed in Ontario. MTO has confirmed this in writing to journalists and numerous correspondents, including me.

2) The Ontario standard for LSVs excludes all current models being produced worldwide. However, if you can find such a non-existent vehicle, you can theoretically license it. Creating a standard that cannot be met is, in my opinion, effectively a ban.

3) Ontario will let you license a highway capable electric car, if it is produced in Canada and passes the CMVSS, or is on the federal Registrar's list for imported vehicles. If you know of such an electric car that is currently for sale in Ontario, please identify it. Permitting the licensing of cars that don't exist is, in my opinion, effectively a ban.

So, which electric car is it that you can buy today in Ontario, and license for on-road use? As near as I can tell, it's none. The inverse of none is all.

Also, I'm still waiting for your list of 'astonishing incentives' for EV purchase currently in effect in Ontario.

Sorry if the facts lack credibility in your view. Sometimes they just aren't convenient that way. I don't recall claiming any conspiracies. I do recall pointing out an irony, perhaps hypocrisy, on the part of the Ontario government.

As for what I said.

The quote that started this thread is from a private e-mail which I sent in response to a query, which was in the context of privately-owned (i.e., conversions) electric cars. (I get several such e-mails daily on the subject of the Ontario EV licensing issues.) That quote does not appear in the article I wrote for public consumption, which tries to provide the complete picture, but which you apparently refuse to read. (However, just because the quote comes from private correspondence does not mean I won't stand behind it - so long as I am permitted to provide the context. I am not prepared to provide the remainder of that private e-mail as it contains personal information.)

Now that you have accused me of being of less than honest and truthful in the article I wrote ("write a far more honest and truthful article"), perhaps you could actually read that article, and tell me what in there is not honest or truthful. The article you have disparaged is here: http://www.10n10.ca/e/Ontario%20EV%20Ban.shtml.

Darryl McMahon

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Darryl McMahon wrote:

I don't recall claiming any conspiracies. I do recall pointing out an irony, perhaps hypocrisy, on the part of the Ontario government.

Irony? No conspiracy? Did you not write,

(sic)"The MTO is currently preventing the licensing of electric conversions via an unannounced, unpublished and secret campaign within MTO",

Were these not your words?? What else is this meant to convey, if not a conspiracy or covert activity?

Either you live in a parallel universe, or are you just a remarkably adroit dissembler.

Wouldn't it just be simpler to be accurate,and less sensational?

The truth is evident. All journalists try to embellish stories to make them a little more sensational and interesting! But, when caught out, it's pretty pointless to continue remonstrating endlessly!

Wouldn't it be much simpler to just say "I (or whoever you nominate) have problems with registering my EV with OMT?".

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

The Ontario government has lifted the EV conversions licensing ban as of this week.

Details are available on my Web site at:

http://www.10n10.ca/e/Ontario%20EV%20Ban.shtml

Re: Ontario provincial government stopped licensing all ...

Darryl McMahon wrote:

The Ontario government has lifted the EV conversions licensing ban as of this week

Darryl, you should really get yourself a job with one of Rupert's Tabloids!

You have taken a non-story, distorted the facts to suit, beat-up a fantasy, published it diligently, then invented a negotiated 'victory' casting yourself as the Hero, thereby vindicating to your readers the proof of your claims.

Well done! A very neat piece of spin! There are a lot of young gutter press tabloid and electronic journalists who should select your methods as a role model.

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