Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

184 replies [Last post]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
mark IV
Offline
Joined: 07/18/2007
Points: 10
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

The owner of the bike store I purchased my Bionx system said that I cannot code in the speed limit 3773 because Bionx have changed the electronics.
Although this could be hogwash, my question is: what happens if I programe to elimimate the speed limit and it does'nt work?
Is there a way to reverse it?

------------------------
E-bike platforms so far:
36 v geared Hienzmann frnt wheel dr (6yrs old)
36 V 350-watt Bionx-li-on hybrid bike (new)

__________________

E-bike platforms so far:
36 v geared Hienzmann frnt wheel dr (6yrs old)
36 V 350-watt Bionx-li-on hybrid bike (new)

Teflonmonkey
Teflonmonkey's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/18/2007
Points: 16
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

I think that the code disables the regenerateve breaking from coming on at around 31km/h so its a faster easier ride u can push it up to a faster speed with out fighting the breaking power of the regen slowing you back to your top legal speed of 20 m/h and converting the exsess energy that would have gone to more speed to your batts,,, i used the code right away so i dono the wall effect so much more than the natural assist not doing much over 30. thats how i understood whats going on, get a wilderness energy or somthing like a 405 for speed! i dono id think about it hard next time. if your looking to go fast there is other systems,.

__________________

Teflon Monkey

mark IV
Offline
Joined: 07/18/2007
Points: 10
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

The system works wonderfully otherwise, and has no "wall effect" that people speak of, the power just lowers down slowely away at 30km/h. Which is fine 95% of the time.
I must say though, that my 500 watt Heinzmann with reduction gearing seems nicer even after many years of useage. The smooth transition of power (and more of it,it seems) is comforting in comparison to the "pulsing effect" of the Bionx and other gearless systems. I like them both for what they are, my recumbent bike will probably try the Crystalyte systems with 48 volts of power sounds like a perfect match and good value.
Off topic: why don't they use aluminum wiring in the hub motors?

---------------------------
E-bike platforms so far:
36 v geared Hienzmann frnt wheel dr (8yrs old)
36 V 350-watt Bionx-li-on hybrid bike (new)

__________________

E-bike platforms so far:
36 v geared Hienzmann frnt wheel dr (6yrs old)
36 V 350-watt Bionx-li-on hybrid bike (new)

mgmartin
Offline
Joined: 07/25/2007
Points: 4
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Also using PL-350 on an MTB with an 8 speed shifter and have to say that the Shimano 11-28 7-speed was a major improvement over the SunRace I originally purchased. I was pedaling like a maniac at full speed, didn't expect going from 13 to 11 would be such a major improvement but life is much better now. Also, the SunRace tended to whine when freewheeling at higher speeds, denying much of the benefit of the quiet hub motor (it quieted some if you pedaled along even slowly). With the 7-speed freewheel and an 8 speed shifter you just have to tweak the derailleur limit to keep the chain from popping off. Wouldn't worry about the loss of one gear, even 7 feels like too many for an electric bike.

Allanb
Offline
Joined: 02/08/2008
Points: 1
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Just got my Bionx PL350 installed on my Kona Dew . The dealer hacked it for me, but he set the limit up to 40k/hr. It,s so nice to ride in 30mph wind/rain and get home from work not feeling dead. First week having this and I look forward to ride home. Can't wait for good weather.
Allan

E-strada
Offline
Joined: 02/13/2008
Points: 1
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Just got my Bionx PL-350 with 36V Lithium battery pack yesterday (2/12/08). Am now installing it. Is the code to disable the speed limiter still 3773, or is it something different now? Thanks!

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

The code should be the same. I just upgraded to a 500W Bionx motor and I disabled the speed limiter with the same code. You can still use the assist settings as normal but the throttle now will give you continuous power output instead of pulsing on and off. The only draw back is quicker battery drain.

A good parts upgrade from Bionx would be a larger battery pack made of LiFePo that can be carried in a back pack and plugged into the existing motor system.

sandorszabo
Offline
Joined: 06/19/2007
Points: 72
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

What top speed are you getting with throttle only on the 500W motor?

I agree that Bionx should be working on a LiFePo battery upgrade. But why the backpack configuration? I like the convenience of their existing battery pack. I'm hoping for a third-party small business that would take the exhausted Bionx battery packs and install LiFePo cells. Competition would surely bring prices down.

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

I'm getting about 26 mph on the flats, all throttle and no pedaling with the High Speed 500W motor. I took it for a spin yesterday on the hills of Palos Verdes, California. Round trip was 36.5 miles, average speed was 19.4 mph and run time was 57.29 minutes with two 36 volt Lithium batteries (spare battery carried in a backpack).

The backpack configuration takes the weight of the battery off the frame and allows for better handling at least for my set up. I can carry a much larger battery in a backpack, plus a larger 20Ah battery mounted on the frame would put too much stress on the two little screws that secure the battery on the frame. I have carried up to two Lithium batteries in a backpack comfortably on extended throttle only trips to test the 350W system.

BobotheDestroyer
BobotheDestroyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
Points: 9
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

My first post, so please excuse my ignorance.

I noticed from the previous posts, that no matter what the size of wheel (based on 250 and 350 series), the maximum speed remains approximately the same. If I was to order a 20" wheel and re-spoke it for 26" wheel, would this not in effect create a lower torque, faster system with the speed limiter disabled?

www.ebikes.ca sells custom spoke sizes

Cheers,

Bobo

P.S. Thanks for all of your great work. I'm hoping to buy a Bionx system in a few weeks with a 9-speed freewheel. Not sure if I'll buy a P-350 or PL-350 system yet. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

"If I was to order a 20" wheel and re-spoke it for 26" wheel, would this not in effect create a lower torque, faster system with the speed limiter disabled?"

It makes no sense to re-spoke a rim on the 350W motor since Bionx offer both a 20" and 26" 350W motor kit, the motor is still the same. It would only make sense to re-spoke if they do not offer the rim size you are looking for.

You may want to read a little more on hub motors at www.ebikes.ca and www.crystalyte.com under motor spec, additional speed record, testing report. It may clear things up for you.

As far as I know, disabling the speed limiter only does one thing. It gives you continuous power output when the throttle is engaged. If not disabled the throttle will pulse its power output on and off continuously to conserve energy.

Regarding your freewheel choice, when I tried to install an eight speed freewheel on my Dahon Mu SL, the SRAM X7 derailleur rubbed against the hub motor at the lowest gear, so I went with the 7 speed Shimano freewheel instead, but this is for a 20 inch rim. I don't know about the larger rim sizes though.

Hope that helps,
Dennis

davew
davew's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/20/2006
Points: 88100
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

BobotheDestroyer wrote:

If I was to order a 20" wheel and re-spoke it for 26" wheel, would this not in effect create a lower torque, faster system with the speed limiter disabled?

This raises an interesting question.

Dennis wrote:

It makes no sense to re-spoke a rim on the 350W motor since Bionx offer both a 20" and 26" 350W motor kit, the motor is still the same.

My guess is that Dennis is right, but this is only a guess. Do we know that these are indeed the same motor? They certainly wouldn't have to be.

--
I think the deal with Bionx is the motor is designed more for low end torque than for speed. I bought a 26" system and it will get me up to 20mph, but only just. With the speed limiter removed I can go faster with most of the extra energy to do that coming from me. Common sense suggests that the 20" would struggle to get up to 20mph. I think only a well-constructed, side-by-side test could say for sure.

__________________

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

BobotheDestroyer
BobotheDestroyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
Points: 9
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

The reason I ask that question is that I suspect the motors are different. Here's why:
1) Bionx has their own wire wrapping machine so they can specify turns (seen it on Youtube)
2) Bionx builds the wheel (can't buy just motor)
3) Why wouldn't Bionx then ensure that every size of wheel could go approx 20mph by customizing the wraps?

If Bionx does control the wraps based on wheel size, then thats a whole new set of options available to us. We just need to find out if a 18 or 20" Bionx wheel can power to 20mph.

Another Question: Has anyone heard of Bionx owner using a custom made LiFePo4 batteries? I was thinking the P-350 battery bag could easily hold a 15AH LiFePo4 battery. My concerns are specifically with the battery control module and its compatibility.

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2006
Points: 1309
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

The reason the same motor runs the same speed in different size rims is because it is turning different RPMs based on a code entered into the Bionx controller. If you enter the code that is for a 20 inch wheel and use a 26 inch wheel the bike will go faster but the speedometer will be wrong. That is why the guys on V have found a code that disables the Bionx top speed. You can read about it here.

Chas S.

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

My answer is a guess as well. Based on all the info I have read about the Bionx system and my experience with it, I came to that conclusion.
A good comparison to the Bionx motor is the 400 series Crystalyte motor, specifically the 408 which gives good torque and good speed on a 26" rim. Put the same motor on a 20" rim and you have higher torque and lower speed. I spoke to Kevin, the owner of Electric Cyclery in Laguna Beach about this and he also stated the 350W Bionx system on a 20" rim has a lot more torque for going up hills but it's slower compared to a 26".
The same 408 Crystalyte motor at 24V and 36V will give you similar increases in performance as the 250W and 350W Bionx motors.
Then there is the new 500W high speed Bionx motor. This is where I think they changed the windings to make it a high speed motor. The motor size and voltage is the same as the 350W but it's faster and has less torque. It's sort of like the 406 Crystalyte high speed motor.
I have tested the 350W and 500W system on my 20" rim Dahon Mu SL. On the flats, full throttle with the speed limiter disabled with no pedaling gives me about 18mph and 26mph respectively.
Maybe some one else has more info to share?
I too, wish I can figure out how to replace the batteries for the Bionx closed system.

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

What are you talking about chas? I'm confused??? Entering the code of the wheel size into the Bionx console does not change the speed of the motor. It is only used to calibrate the speedometer, so the speed shown on the speedometer will be correct for the different sized rims.

Disabling the speed limiter just affects the way the throttle works and lets the motor spin continuously instead of pulsing on and off at full throttle. Try it for yourself on any Bionx kit with a throttle. If you do not disable the speed limiter, the electronics will pulse the motor on and off, even at full throttle to decrease the rpm. That is how the electronics control the speed of the motor by pulsing the energy input. When the speed limiter is disabled you will notice the wheel will no longer pulse on and off at full throttle, it will spin continuously and drain the battery much quicker.

chas_stevenson
chas_stevenson's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2006
Points: 1309
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Gee, maybe I am confused as I do not have a Bionx and was going by what I have read on V and other sites. I thought the controller used the speedometer to control the speed of the bike.

Sorry if I gave out wrong information.

Grandpa Chas S.

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

What are you sorry for? It's just a friendly discussion Grandpa Chas. :) When you said other forums, did you mean http://endless-sphere.com/forums/. I have been lurking there for a while and if you do a search there under Bionx console programming, you will find a good deal of information regarding the Bionx system. ;)

Speaking of misinformation. My first 2 posts on this thread had the distance numbers and speed wrong as well. At the time I programmed the wrong numbers for the wheel size into the console, thinking it would trick the motor programming into giving me more speed but it actually did not. It just gave me higher speed and distance numbers than the actual speed and distance.

Chas,

Just a thought, can the electric bicycle forum have a sub category for Bionx like the motorcycle/moped forum with a sub category for Vectrix?

BobotheDestroyer
BobotheDestroyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
Points: 9
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

A Bionx forum would be brilliant! Good idea Dennis.

sandorszabo
Offline
Joined: 06/19/2007
Points: 72
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

I run a Bionx 350W motor on a 20" wheel. I have no trouble hitting 20mph (indicated). However, the lower wind resistance of my recumbent set-up is a complicating factor when it comes to side-by-side comparisons.

BobotheDestroyer
BobotheDestroyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
Points: 9
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

What if we compared the no-load speed of a 20" to 26"/700c (lift of the ground). Wind resistance would not be a factor and we would then know for sure. The 26" systems appear to top out at around 25 mph from what I've read.

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

I will start another topic under Bionx no load test.

lonnierenda
Offline
Joined: 03/11/2008
Points: 5
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Okay.... I am a total newbie looking into this for a commuting solution. So, I admit, even after reading the posts I am confused. My limiter in commuting is not fitness, but time. Thus, in order to commute by bike I need to be able to get to and from work faster than I can pedal alone. My commute is about 30 miles each way.

1) If I order the new Bionx 500w series, can I turn off the speed limiter?

2) If so, what kind of speeds can I expect on a hybrid-type bike both while not pedaling and pedaling? Assume I can output 180-220 watts of pedaling power and the surfaces are relatively flat.

3) I am assuming, I would have to recharge at work given my distance and speeds I am trying to achieve. Yes?

4) Assuming speeds higher than 20 MPH, what kind of brakes do you have? I am assuming if you are zooming around at 26 MPH in traffic that disc brakes are the way to go for safety. Yes?

5) What is the cost of a second battery and what is the top battery they offer?

davew
davew's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/20/2006
Points: 88100
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Quote:

1) If I order the new Bionx 500w series, can I turn off the speed limiter?

Since they advertise speeds up to 25mph one would presume so.

Quote:

2) If so, what kind of speeds can I expect on a hybrid-type bike both while not pedaling and pedaling? Assume I can output 180-220 watts of pedaling power and the surfaces are relatively flat.

This is going to be very difficult to answer until someone buys one.

Quote:

3) I am assuming, I would have to recharge at work given my distance and speeds I am trying to achieve. Yes?

They claim a range of 50 miles so yes. Recharging more often is better for the batteries anyway.

Quote:

4) Assuming speeds higher than 20 MPH, what kind of brakes do you have? I am assuming if you are zooming around at 26 MPH in traffic that disc brakes are the way to go for safety. Yes?

Not necessarily. The Bionx uses regenerative braking which gives you some extra stopping power. I feel perfectly safe on my Bionx with V-brakes at 25mph. Disc brakes would be better, however, if you have them.

Quote:

5) What is the cost of a second battery and what is the top battery they offer?

This would be a good question for the fine folks at Electric Cyclery.

__________________

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Quote:

1) If I order the new Bionx 500w series, can I turn off the speed limiter?

Yes, I did it with my kit.

Quote:

2) If so, what kind of speeds can I expect on a hybrid-type bike both while not pedaling and pedaling? Assume I can output 180-220 watts of pedaling power and the surfaces are relatively flat.

It's hard to say, on road test can vary. You need to take into account the weight of the bicycle with the kit, the weight of the spare battery, the weight of the rider and the rim size and your level of fitness. I'm 158lbs in fair shape, my Dahon Mu SL w/Bionx 500W kit and 2 batteries weigh 46lbs and the wheel size is 20 inch. On a 36.5 miles test ride in the Hills of Palos Verdes, CA, I was able to maintain an average speed of about 19 mph as indicated on the Bionx console in 58mins x 2=1 hr 56 mins (sorry for misposting time, should be times 2 because I use 2 batteries, crono time resets with each battery). I nearly used up both batteries, one bar left on console with both. On a 26" rim, total weight of bike, rider and fitness level being equal, you should be able to achieve a higher throttle only speed but lower torque compared to a 20" rim, which means it will take longer to get to the speed of the 20" rim and surpass it. The top speed throttle only for my set up is 26 mph indicated and when going down hill full throttle and pedaling over 33 mph indicated. If you have a tall road bike gear on the hybrid then you can pedal along and add to the top speed. My Dahon Mu SL's gearing is too low to add much at top speed, I would have to pedal like a mad man. I hope to change that with a Schlumpf High Speed Drive.

Quote:

3) I am assuming, I would have to recharge at work given my distance and speeds I am trying to achieve. Yes?

At top speed with the speed limiter disabled you will likely use up close to 2 batteries at 30 miles. It will take about 3-4 hours to recharge each battery.

Quote:

4) Assuming speeds higher than 20 MPH, what kind of brakes do you have? I am assuming if you are zooming around at 26 MPH in traffic that disc brakes are the way to go for safety. Yes?

It's better to have disc brakes, they will stop you faster. I have V-brakes on my bike and it stops with no problem combined with regen braking, even coasting down steep hills at 33 mph. I have not replaced the original brake pads, they have barely worn down and I have logged over 500 miles with the 350W kit on the same bike and so far 167 miles with the 500W kit.

Quote:

5) What is the cost of a second battery and what is the top battery they offer?

Check with http://www.greenspeed.us/, Lithium is what I use, lighter to carry in a backpack. If you live in Southern California, you can go in to take a test ride. Make sure you call to make sure he has a bike set up with the 500W system.
Hope this helps.

coach
Offline
Joined: 03/20/2008
Points: 1
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Hello
I'm also new to the site.
I coach a triathlon team and I've been looking into purchasing a scooter to motor pace my athletes in their training. My bike shop has recommended the bionx product feeling it would allow me to do the same thing. I've read all of the postings and I'm still not sure if the bionx unit would give me enough speed to pace a group of cyclists. I used to race triathlons but I'm not as fit and quite a bit heavier than my race days.
I was wondering if I could get some comments from bionx owners on if they feel the unit would allow me to pace a group of riders. I would need to be able to go periods at a speed of 30 MPH or 50 KMH as my riders would be in my draft. Plus I'd need to be able to talk to them (ie. I can't be out of breath although I can be riding moderately hard).
From the sounds of the postings the 250 and 350 models might not be fast enough but possibly the 500 model might work.
Thanks for any advice anyone can give me.

davew
davew's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/20/2006
Points: 88100
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

I can guarantee a PL350 would not be enough. I can cruise comfortably at 20mph on the level with no wind. Beyond this the motor doesn't push much. I can get up to 28mph or so, but it's a lot of work.

__________________

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

Dennis
Dennis's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2006
Points: 140
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

I tested both the PL350 and PL500HS on a 20" rim Dahon Mu SL. The 350W kit on a 20 inch rim was unable to keep up with road cyclists on the flats or downhill because my top speed with pedaling was only about 22 to 25mph and with no pedaling about 18 mph.

With the 500W kit, I am now able to cruise on the flats with no pedaling at about 26 mph. At that speed, only a fit road cyclist is able to keep up and draft behind me. When I pedal along at full throttle, I would usually loose them. When going uphill at about 20 mph with pedaling, no cyclists were able to keep up. Going downhill they were able to overtake me at about 40 to 45 mph. I am unable to pedal to add speed downhill due to low gearing on my bike. Even at full throttle, my top downhill speed was about 33 to 35mph. I will be installing a Schlumpf high speed drive in the next few weeks. I will post the full throttle downhill speeds while pedaling in high gear.

Range at top speed on one lithium battery for me is only about 18 miles with moderate to brisk pedaling.

Hope this helps

oskar
Offline
Joined: 03/24/2008
Points: 8
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Hi,
i am from germany and i am new in this forum and my English isn´t that good, but i hope you will excuse it...
I have been watching this forum and especially this topic since a couple of months and the possibility to remove the speed limiter of the bionx-system fascinates me even though it´s not quite legal here in germany...
But now i have read in a german "Velomobil-Forum" that somebody who owns the pl250-system since a couple of weeks has tried to enter the code and the display just said "max speed 25 km/h"!!! He was not able remove the limiter.
I´ve already ordered my PL250HT-System here in Germany and will get it hopefully in may but now i´m a bit confused about those news.Does anybody know anything about this? Did the Producers of Bionx changed the Software for Europe in the last months?

Andrew.R.W
Offline
Joined: 03/15/2008
Points: 20
Re: Removing Bionx 20mph speed limit

Hey Oskar,

You're English is pretty good! A whole lot better than my German for sure!

I read in another forum that the most-recent versions of the firmware did not include the limiter-removal option. Specifically, version Reu 2.3 was claimed to not have the option to remove the limit. I have Reu 2.2 and it seems to work for me.

You'll see the firmware revision number when you power up the system. It flashes at the bottom left of the console for several seconds.

I hope this helps.

Andrew

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Customize This