xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in range....

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I have owned my xb-700li for 18 months and my range appears to be decreasing after putting a little over 3000 miles on it. Has anyone else ridden more miles than that? And if so has your range decreased? Are you seeing decrease in full charge voltage?

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

I'd check cell voltages UNDER LOAD at the end of a fairly long ride. I'd bet that one or more cells is out of synch. You will at least have hard data to give to the vendor...

How many recharge cycles has the pack had?

Mark

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

After a 4 mile ride, my under load voltage is around 48 to 49. When the bike was new that same voltage would have been around 50 to 50.5. I have not yet disassembled the battery pack. It would appear that is not a simple thing to do. I would guestimate I have around 500 charging cycles.

Are the LIFEP04 batteries really that superior to my LIFEMN04? Do they last longer?

My range brand new was probably around 25 miles. It has dropped to around 15. Has anyone else experienced this?

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are 'better' than lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4, which is what I assume you mean - I don't believe there is such a thing as a lithium iron manganese oxide cell which is what LIFEMNO4 would be), largely in the sense that they can't catch fire. On most other measures they are worse (energy density, power density). But that not catching fire thing is important. And yes they do have much better cycle-life.

Here's a useful comparison summary:
http://www.efirstpower.com/li.html

That lists 500 cycles as the lifetime for managnese based cells.

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Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

Anyone Else???? We can get 9 posts on a brake question, 16 posts on a charger question, but nobody with a 700li can chime in about how their voltage and range is holding up after X number of months??????

Help me out here please. This seems about as critical and important as anything we are ever going to discuss. Am I going to get 7-10 years out of these batteries, or am I going to dump another 600 dollars into my 700li every 18 months?????

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

Did you check the AIR PRESSURE of your TIRES recently?? It is VERY important for good range!--Low pressure shortens range!!

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Robert M. Curry

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

I'm on the sidelines on this one, since I've got lead in my XB600. However, a series of cells lives and dies on the individual cells in the pack. That means, in practice, a BMS system for cells that cannot withstand an "average" charge over the years.

What kind of BMS does the XB700 have? Are they just "hoping" that all the cells will remain synched?

Mark

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

I'm not clear which battery type you have in your machine. Is it stock or did you buy it separately and if so from where? You said you had 'LiFEMNO4' batts, which I can only find mention of in some obscure research papers.

I don't have your particular machine either so don't know much about it. Ah, I see from http://www.x-tremescooters.com/electric_bicycles/xb700li/xb700li.html that models built before 2010 have 'LiMn' packs, whilst newer ones have 'LiPO4'. You need to provide this sort of info if you want people to help, not expect them to look it up on the internet themselves for your benefit. What sort of battery-management is provided on the bike?

The link I provided earlier sugests that Lithium Manganese (actually Lithium Managnese Oxide or LiMn2O4) packs have a 500 cycle life so your seeing noticeable capacity reduction at this point seems in line with that.

If you read up on endless sphere you will find endless information on the details of battery management. If you look inside the pack to find out which actual cells were used it might help people advise on their expected lifetime.

Here's a page saying that both colbalt-based and managanese based chemistries have increasing internal resistance over time (resulting in increased voltage drop under high load) and will be poorly after 2-3 years.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_high_power_lithium_ion

Not storing at high charge levels seems to be the main way to extend lifetime of lithium-ion cells, but of course that isn't usually very practical.

Bottom line: assuming I have the right chemistry, then yes, you've had a reasonable life from them and they are probably now on the way out. A Lithium-iron phospate replacement will be bigger/heavier for the same capacity but _should_ last at least 4 times as long (if protected with a suitable BMS to prevent differential cell charging and over-discharge/undercharging).

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Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

Thank you for all of your replies! My 700li is a 2009 model with LiMN batteries. Sorry for the confusion. XTreme did not put BMS on the 700li's. Are the LiP0 really so superior they last 4 times as long? If so, then it might be worth it to spend the 599 for the battery pack plus 80 for the new charger. I had counted on the batteries I have lasting 7-10 years as advertised. Apparently not.

Yes my tire pressures are fine, as in 40psi. I changed my tires and tubes several months ago and monitor them frequently. I live in Phx AZ where temperatures frequently top 105 or 110, so I am wondering if heat is a factor too. I have never heard of storing Lithium batteries at low charge to extend life. Is that correct?

And lastly, are other pre-2010 700li owners all upgrading to the LiPO batteries? Does anyone offer any kind of trade in program, because we are falling wayyyyy short of the advertised 7-10 year battery life. Thank you!!!

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

Just wanted to comment on my scooter, I bought a XB700Li around march of 2010, it has the newer batteries in it. Rode it about 60 hard miles a week and not always charged right after riding sometimes after a few days of riding. Lost job, brought bike to my home and let it set for a month with battery charged. Got it back out recently and still getting 35-45 miles from a charge. I love it, it saved my life when not having a drivers license.

On another note, sold the bike today to a nice older woman. She rode around all day and loves it. Unfortunately, they just called and said they plugged it in after riding and it started to smoke. I think they plugged the charger cord only directly into the bike's charging port, this is the only way I can imagine that it would smoke when plugged in. They will return the bike tomorrow and I will access the damage for them and see if I can fix it. I am sure that this is not the first time someone has done this, anyone else fry the controller by plugging directly into the charging port from the AC wall socket, if so, PM me and leave some details if you can.

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Re: xb-700li - Battery Life? Anyone seeing a decrease in ...

Oooh, that's heartbreaking. It is basically criminal to use a standard 110V AC plug type for a 48V DC supply. There was a case in England where the same thing happened. The same plug style is a more standard service plug in England.

Mark

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