Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

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antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

HarryS wrote:

arrangement of 3 stacks of 8 cells and 2 stacks of 9 cells laying on their side. This fit into the currently existing battery compartment.

That could be done, The battery would have to be pre-wired before lowering into the battery box.
It could probably be done per stack, however, due to the lack of clearance an Anderson on each stack would be necessary if only putting it in one stack at a time.

An insulating barrier between the battery terminals and the frame would also be necessary (this bit is not quite as hard).
To prevent movement of the individual cells, it will have to be a close fit (otherwise the copper interconnects work harden).

The next tricky part is there would be no room for the master module.
Its not shown in the pictures, but I locate it on the poly carbonate barrier, above the front layer of cells.

The master module should be located near the mains line for the charger for ease of wiring.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

antiscab
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Points: 1599
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

HarryS wrote:

The cut into the fan housing, while no big deal, does actually make the bike less water tight. Kudos on your courageous effort. We will soon all be thankful for your pioneering work.

oops, forgot to answer this part,

The cut in the fan housing does make that section less watertight, however, it is also in the section that endures the least amount of water ingress.

There is both the outer panel and the seat covering that section.

The battery box never was completely water tight, more water resistant, as anyone who has experienced the dash christmas tree in wet weather can attest to.
Its main job is to restrain the batteries.

If water does get into the battery box its not much of a drama,
The noalox paste prevents the connections from oxidising,
the controller has a conformal coating so that has a degree of water resistance aswell.

Thanks for the words of encouragement :)

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

antiscab
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Points: 1599
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Mik wrote:

how about including a battery lifting attachment for getting the old battery out? It would not cost you much, but could present a stumbling block for some.

What is the angle grinder needed for? Do you need to cut parts of the battery box or frame?

Hi Mik,

I have been thinking about battery removal.

for my own conversion I secured a piece of wire (25 mm^2) to the two threaded rods in each battery and pulled maually.

its a good point, I think I will come up with a solution for the kit.

for the two converted last week, a roof mounted block and chain was used to do the heavy lifting.

another possibility is to remove the top layer of cells before lifting, which should reduce the mass of the heaviest battery by ~15kg.

I have been spending the day joining up video, and I already see a few areas where I should have done some more filming.

The angle grinder is for two things:
to help cut the holes in the fan cover,

the other use is on some bikes, due to manufacturing tolerances, one of the aluminium plates near the motor controller needs trimming by 1-2mm on either side.
you can do it with a file, but an angle grinder is faster.

Mine didn't need it, but one I did last week did.

the other option is to sand some of the ribbed plastic back on the rear cells.

Neither spots are load bearing.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

oobflyer
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Points: 367
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

For those of you in the USA, wondering about the cost of the batteries, I wrote to Thundersky (winston777@winston-battery.com) requesting a quote for the 40AH batteries - this was their response:

42pcs LYP40AH: 42*US$ 48/pcs=US$ 2016(EXW)
42pcs connectors: 42*US$ 1.5/pcs= US$63(EXW)
6 set jigs and straps: 6*US$ 8/ set= US$48(EXW)
(to pack 6 blocks of 7 cells, you could change the cell qty in one block,
then the total qty of the jigs and straps would be changed accordingly,
but pls note that one set jigs and straps can not pack more than 10 cells)
----------------------------------
total US$2127(EXW)

With the Antiscab kit ($1200 US), and shipping (by sea) ($428) to California, the total would be:

US$3755, plus any labor costs, if you pay someone to do the conversion ... as I'm planning to do.

I sent the same request for a quote to CHL, regarding the 50AH Li-ion batteries, but I did not receive a reply.

CHL lithium battery
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Ok,to support your project,our 50AH LFP battery would give some way on price at Usd62/cell FOB China,connectors and strip are free of charge.

antiscab
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Points: 1599
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Its worth checking around for prices, including shipping.

oobflyer - do you have an import agent to deal with customs and import tariffs?

I did a quick search for suppliers who reside within the USA (and so have already done the importation):
http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Thundersky/Thundersky-40ah-cell-p24.html
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_lpf_ts_40ah.php
http://evolveelectrics.com/Thunder%20Sky%20Lithium%20Batteries.html
http://lithiumstorage.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=&products_id=30&zenid=u6mlstpa4vqr733c89151ejd94

CHL is relatively new to the western market, so I can't seem to find any company that already imports in large quantity, and allows payment options such was via credit card.

I'm not familiar with importation costs into the USA, but an agent might be able to give you a good idea.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

CHL lithium battery
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Points: 305
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

We already sell a lot battery installed on E-scooter to Europe market.

Such as PDT in Spain,E-sprit in Austria....

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Thanks for doing the research - it would be much easier to order from within the U.S.
I've never placed a large order from China before - I didn't know I needed an import agent.
I had decided to go with the CHL 50AH batteries - in for a penny, in for a pound, as they say.
I guess I better do some more research about importing before I place the order.

CHL lithium battery
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

FalconEV will order another samples,maybe Andy knows more import procedure of battery.

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Thanks - They don't have these types of batteries on their website, but I sent them an email - we'll see what options are available.

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Here is the total cost of conversion to the 50AH battery, if purchased from Joey Zhong of CHL:

42pcs LFP: 42*US$ 62/pcs=US$ 2,604(EXW)
Export Charge: $100
Connectors, set jigs and straps: included
Sea Freight (from China to Oakland, CA): $80
Antiscab conversion kit: $1,200
----------------------------------
total US$3,984

Plus any labor costs, if you pay someone to do the conversion ... as I'm planning to do. The engineer that I'm working with said he'd do the conversion for $500. So my grand total should be around:

$4,484

Remember: Vectrix said they'd sell me a brand-new NiMH (30AH) battery pack for $5,000 ;-)

HarryS
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Points: 341
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

May be Matt could clarify something for us regarding battery capacity. If his conversion uses the stock charger and stock electronics, it will not allow to fully charge either the 40ah or the 50ah battery. I believe that the charger will cut off after 3h on CP charge which would be 33ah add the one h of CC at 3ah and you could may be get up to 36ah. I'd true, there is no benefit of going beyond a 40ah lifepo cell like the TS.

colin9876
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Yea but thats assuming that the cells start off completely empty, which is unlikely.

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

HarryS wrote:

May be Matt could clarify something for us regarding battery capacity. If his conversion uses the stock charger and stock electronics, it will not allow to fully charge either the 40ah or the 50ah battery. I believe that the charger will cut off after 3h on CP charge which would be 33ah add the one h of CC at 3ah and you could may be get up to 36ah. I'd true, there is no benefit of going beyond a 40ah lifepo cell like the TS.

This is something I have been working on.

I already know I can set the fuel guage so total assumed capacity is 34.3Ah (3FFFF) (which works out fine for a 40Ah cell).

I know how to set the fuel guage to up to 44.4Ah (4FFFF) which works for 50Ah cells, but I have yet to fully test it.

so basically the CP charge phase runs until the assumed capacity has been charged (then tries to put an addition 3Ah in during the CC phase)

It may be possible to set it up to 582289Ah (FFFFFFFF) however I have not even attempted to to try this.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

antiscab
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Points: 1599
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I have mostly completed the video,

I have posted it on youtube so that anyone interested in the kit can know for sure what tools, skills and time is involved in the conversion.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CFDD8780E3FBEFD5

If theres something you would like clarified in the video, feel free to let me know.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

mikemitbike
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Matt,
great video. Interresting and quite helpful!
Greetings from Austria Mike

Edit: I use isolating gloves for the battery work and recomend it to everyone who starts to work on his V-Battery.

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Very useful videos so far, thanks!

There is a way to get the black impeller housing on and off without damaging it. It's still a bit of a pain, though.

You cut the cable-tie holding the front-batt temp sensor connector to the frame, move it to the side (stick it under the fairing), then lift the front of the impeller housing up first. That gives you a little more space to move at the back end, so that a good yank without a screwdriver will free it.

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This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Jonathanm
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Matt,
Congratulations, very useful material for anybody wanting to know more about their Vectrix's. In my view this should become a sticky and part of the handbook. Well done!

Jonathan

HarryS
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Matt,
Thanks again for taking the plunge for all of us. Nice documentation. I am still a bit concerned about the lack of ventilation with these revisions. What are the highest temperature that you are encountering? It seems that not only the batteries but the electronic boads received cooling through the impellers.
What are your thoughts on that?
Best
Harry

dcs01
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I'm very interested in your Li conversion kit. I have two VX-1's, one is running fine, the other needs a battery.
I don't have time to do the conversion myself, but I notice there's an owner in Stockton, CA that has a mechanic who'll do the mod for $500.
I live in Thousand Oaks, CA but can trailer my VX-1 to Stockton for the work, since I'm up there to visit my brother regularly.

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

HarryS wrote:

...
...It seems that not only the batteries but the electronic boads received cooling through the impellers.
What are your thoughts on that?
Best
Harry

If you have a close look at the impeller housing (and maybe run it off the scoot with a 12V 4A supply) then you will notice that part of the exhaust is expelled towards the MC boards inside, then re-circulates through the battery.

How much difference this makes, I do not know, but Australia would be the place where trouble fist shows, because of the sometime high ambient temperatures.

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This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

HarryS wrote:

What are the highest temperature that you are encountering? It seems that not only the batteries but the electronic boads received cooling through the impellers.

Hi Harry,

During charge, the temperature rise isn't measurable on the batteries.

Those boards are rated for the shunts to run in an enclosed space with no airflow (the cell is the heat sink)
in the vectrix conversion setup, the shunts don't actually run until the last minute of charge.

during discharge, the highest temperature rise recorded to date was 2.5 deg C.
This was after 5 minutes of 90A continuous (a long steep hill at 80kmh).

As for the motorcontroller, it has its own fan which supplies the majority of the cooling.
I wasn't monitoring controller temps, but I will if I get another chance.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

antiscab wrote:

...
...
Those boards are rated for the shunts to run in an enclosed space with no airflow (the cell is the heat sink)
in the vectrix conversion setup, the shunts don't actually run until the last minute of charge....
...

What (and where) are the shunts you mention?

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This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

mikemitbike
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Mik wrote:

What (and where) are the shunts you mention?

Hi Mik, I think he means the little BMS boards on the cells. They usually start to shunt the cells during charging, when they reach the cutoff voltage between 3,6 and 3,8 Volt to protect the cells from overcharging.

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

mikemitbike wrote:
Mik wrote:

What (and where) are the shunts you mention?

I think he means the little BMS boards on the cells. They usually start to shunt the cells during charging, when they reach the cutoff voltage between 3,6 and 3,8 Volt to protect the cells from overcharging.

Yep, the red board on top of each cell.

in hindsight I think HarryS was referring to the original hardware like the motor controller at the back?

I will have to do more testing.
the hill which I like to do stress testing on is 40km from where I live.
not an issue for myself (aside from time), but getting a nimh bike out there for comparison could be more challenging.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Mik
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Points: 3727
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

antiscab wrote:

...
...

in hindsight I think HarryS was referring to the original hardware like the motor controller at the back?

I will have to do more testing....
...
Matt

Yes, the stock MC board receives some cooling by the battery cooling impellers.

Any heating needs to be tested during charging - maybe this is the reason for why the impellers always run when the bike is charging, even when it's stone cold and a bit of extra heat would be desirable for the battery. The charge current goes through the MC board but I have no idea if it is a low resistance shunt or if significant heat is being created.

The reason for re-circulating part of the battery air might also be to equalise temperatures between cell layers.

__________________

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

HarryS
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Matt,
Can you give us some real world data as to how the bike does after the conversion? What is a realistic range to expect?
Harry

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Just finished watching the conversion video- bravo Matt! I'm more excited than ever to start on my bike.

I haven't ordered the batteries yet - I got quotes from CHL and Thundersky. I also wrote to FalconEV (at the suggestion of CHL) - they replied right away that they deal with CHL - so I may be able to order the batteries from them (a domestic supplier for me here in the US). However FalconEV hasn't responded yet with a quote.

I do have one question: you mentioned in the video that the 120V conversion will differ from the 240V. Will the master control box have this option? Is it just a matter of attaching a couple of more wires? I'm still planning on paying an engineer friend of mine to do the conversion for me - I'm sure he'll understand how to hook things up with the 120V main lines, but any advice you can share I'll pass on to him.

Thanks Matt!

By the way - where is part 12: Riding the Li-ion Vectrix!?

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

dcs01 wrote:

I'm very interested in your Li conversion kit. I have two VX-1's, one is running fine, the other needs a battery.
I don't have time to do the conversion myself, but I notice there's an owner in Stockton, CA that has a mechanic who'll do the mod for $500.
I live in Thousand Oaks, CA but can trailer my VX-1 to Stockton for the work, since I'm up there to visit my brother regularly.

Hey dcs01,

I will pass it on to my friend - he may be interested (he doesn't live in Stockton, however - I have to trailer my bike to his house for the conversion). I did have to twist his arm a bit, but in the end I think his professional curiosity got the best of him :-)

antiscab
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Points: 1599
Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

HarryS wrote:

Can you give us some real world data as to how the bike does after the conversion? What is a realistic range to expect?

Sure can:
40km (23miles) @ 100kmh (60mph)
50km (28miles) @ 80kmh (45mph)
70km (40miles) @ 60kmh (35mph)

Thats assuming the fuel guage has been set to 30Ah total capacity, and you only ride to 0 bars.

unless you have already done two red battery lights in a row on your present batteries, your fuel guage will still be set to 30Ah.

oobflyer wrote:

I do have one question: you mentioned in the video that the 120V conversion will differ from the 240V. Will the master control box have this option? Is it just a matter of attaching a couple of more wires?

The Master control box basically just has a relay inside it, it doesn't really care what voltage you are putting through it.

the only difference between the 120v and that 240v versions will be which of the 3 black wires you will be using.
2 of them are used in the 240v version.
a different 2 are used in the 120v version.

if you use the resistance guage on a multimeter, you can work out which two wires go to your power plug, and which one goes nowhere.

oobflyer wrote:

By the way - where is part 12: Riding the Li-ion Vectrix!?

well, I have been planning to buy a go pro helmet cam, but haven't quite got around to it.
I will be able to buy one once I have the kits ready for sale.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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