ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

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IBScootn
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Meroller, great idea with the speedo. I have been suggesting the CA-LDP for the ZEVs and similar scooters. I was helping a guy just south of me get one ordered for his ZEV Trail 7100, but the folks at ebikes.ca kept getting in the way (like what happened to Leftie) and trying to get him to buy a different model. But after getting on the phone directly with ebikes.ca, we got them to ship the correctly modified CA-LDP (with 6.8nF cap). I installed it last week and it works great. Having it connect to the hall sensor is such a reliable and elegant solution. The ZEV hub motor has 28 poles. But I forgot that Leftie could just mount his sensor next to the wheel rim. That would be much easier way to get it working considering his CA model. No need to change the cap.

__________________

Motorcycles:
2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 75+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 800 miles so far.
2010 ZEV 6100, 72V, 40AH, 60+mph; Cycle Analyst, LED head lights, 3 Cell Log interfaces, TNC throttle and faster charger added. 8100 miles so far.

Big EV Grin. :)

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Why would it make any difference, assuming I could get magnets mounted and the cable located correctly near enough to them at the rear wheel? Wouldn't it still reset at 35MPH?

Speaking of speed, I did a downhill run (about 10% grade) and got my 5000 up to an indicated 68MPH, or 110KPH. What's the speedo error, IB?

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

LeftieBiker wrote:

Why would it make any difference, assuming I could get magnets mounted and the cable located correctly near enough to them at the rear wheel? Wouldn't it still reset at 35MPH?

As the CA's standard Reed contact sends just one impluse per passing of the magnet(s) it can detect a far higher speed with just one or two magnets on the wheel rim, than if you use a motor hall sensor that might send 28 pulses per wheel revolution. The CA simply divides the number of sensor pulses per second by the pole number set in the CA advanced settings and multiplies the result with the tire circumfrence set in the CA normal settings. As it can only detect up to 500 pulses per second with the normal C6 capacitor, THAT defines the limit, not a specific speed.

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

That makes perfect sense. Didn't you or someone else write earlier, though, that the limit is 1k per second? At any rate, how fast can you go with two magnets without a reset? And it would have been nice if I'd learned this bit of info before, instead of being told by various sources that the limit was 35MPH, not 500 pulses per second... maybe I'll put connecting the bloody thing back on my list, because I wasn't looking forward to having to tap into the hall sensor output - especially not with the expectation of having to double the number of poles and thus the actual speed as I read it, when that would have doubled the reset problem, instead.

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Oh, and what are you using for wheel magnets? I think the CA I have came with a worthless-looking one that clamps onto a bicycle spoke.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Leftie, you can dowload a pdf Instruction manual for your model of CA from their page. The manuals are almost halfway down that page:
CA page link
The 500Hz pulse limit is from the last table entry in the specifcations section. I do not know what the mechancial limit for the Reed contact would be, but probably not much more actually :-)
I took home two spare NdFeB cube magnets from work that have 5mm sides and glued those onto the left motor lid, first with superglue and then with a nice epoxy bead all around. Rare earth magnets are not absolutely necessary, but they sure give the Reed contact a lot of room to work in. If you use ferrite magnets the speed sensor would have to be placed extremely close to the magnet in order to register it's passing in a dependable way. But you can easily test this as you can hear the Reed cotnact click when it registers the magnet, though it would have to be pretty quiet around you, and the sensor should be held close to your ear.
As my motor windings went up in smoke I broke the magents off of the lid before I sent the scooter back to "home base" for repair and a general overhaul, but the guy there put on two new magnets on his own accord. My scooter is currently on it's way here, so I have not seen them yet myself.

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I'm not sure why you think I need a CA manual - I have the one that came with mine. It tells you to mount the magnet that comes with it on a "spoke" and that's how it's designed. For a bicycle. I don't believe it mentions frequency limits. Good idea about the rare earth magnets, though, as I don't like the idea of having one mounted 1mm away from the swingarm on a rapidly rotating wheel.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

LeftieBiker wrote:

I'm not sure why you think I need a CA manual - I have the one that came with mine.

Because a more up-to-date manual will answer some of of your questions, such as

LeftieBiker wrote:

It tells you to mount the magnet that comes with it on a "spoke" and that's how it's designed. For a bicycle.

The Cycle Analyst 2.23 manual wrote:

For systems like scooters or motorcycles that don’t have spoked rims, a standard magnet can be attached with epoxy to a suitable location on the wheel.

LeftieBiker wrote:

I don't believe it mentions frequency limits.

The Cycle Analyst 2.23 manual wrote:

Speed Range: Up to 600 kph or mph. There is an upper limit of about 500 Hz for the speed sensor input, which can be increased by removing C6

;-)

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

My point about the spoke magnet was that I couldn't use it on my scooter. I do remember it saying you can use another magnet for scooters, but they don't provide one, or sell one. The CA people are great at saying you can do anything with their bicycle computer - you just have to modify it for non-bicycle use, as they can't be bothered to do so, being too busy selling it to scooter owners. I don't remember the frequency limit being there, but either way, I was told specifically that it will reset at 35MPH if the guts aren't changed, not that it will reset at 500 pulses per second and that you could avoid that by using the magnetic pickup instead of a direct hall sensor connection. Now *that* would have been useful info, which probably explains why they omit it.

I've been using the ZEV a lot, putting another couple hundred K's on it, but the front end wobble, combined with the too-far reach to the brake levers, makes it fun only on country roads where I don't have to keep braking. I think I'll ask both the local Harley shop and the local scooter club where to find a good scooter front-end expert.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I think the Cycle Analyst is VERY geeky kind of appliance to start with, so their approach of letting the owner tinker with it never bothered me too much. But I would have been as annoyed as you if they had wrongly advised me. I just researched everything on my own and picked the most fitting package for my needs all on my own, so I pretty much bypassed the possiblity of haiving been advised incorrectly from them.

I think it will be a good idea to have a real scooter expert look at your front fork setup. It is the same kind of hardware as any stinking, fume-spewing scooter has :-)

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I did a range-ride yesterday evening, taking the ZEV to the Saratoga Battlefield National Park, riding through that, then taking a slightly longer route back home. I got a bit worried looking at the odometer while there, but had no problems. Speeds ranged from 10-25MPH at the park to 40-50MPH on the highways. I'd say my average speed was roughly 35MPH. There were plenty of hills and grades, and I actually got to see the regen work, looking at the voltmeter. It's weak, but there. So how far did I go? I forgot to check the odometer when leaving, but remembered shprtly afterward, so the number is +\- 1 kilometer or so, but with juice to spare I went........

71 kilometers. I'd say the range under those conditions is about 75-80 kilometers.

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

"I think it will be a good idea to have a real scooter expert look at your front fork setup. It is the same kind of hardware as any stinking, fume-spewing scooter has :-)"

Would this be the GY6 scooters, or another designation? I heard some tapping in front on my last ride, and checked the front tire for foreign objects and the forks for play this evening. Negative on both. Even with with no play in the forks at all, the shuddering remains. I did notice that the front wheel doesn't turn as easily as I'd expect. Anyone else notice this? It would be nice if there were an aftermarket front end assembly for these scooters that was of higher quality and rigidity than the crap OEM unit.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

If you are referring to Jonway scooters then yes, some of those tend to have the same fork and front end in general.

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My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I don't know if I am or not! I see "GY6" or "GY-6" mentioned a lot in scooter forums as the standard build for 150cc class scooters, and that's the extent of my knowledge. I can't even find a replacement key blank for the ZEV (it looks just like a "type 4" or 5 Chinese scooter key, but it's longer), so even though the front end looks standard, I have no idea where to look for better or even just new, undamaged parts.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

It appears the front shocks used on a lot of Chinese Scooters are a cheap copy of a Taiwanese original.
JohnnyJ and Klas from Sweden appear to have switched from mainland Chinese juddering copies to more solid Taiwan Chinese originals which they got from the Chinese confectioner of our bikes, Mujin "Mountain" Chen.
As for replacment keys, a lot of Chinese scooters use a format orignally from Yamaha. So using the right Yamaha template any seasoned key smith should be able to copy one of your unused keys. I have this template from the Italian key template maker Altuna:
 Original sheet metal with LOTS of  plastic
LH: solid Altuna JMA YAMA-22D.P RH: Original sheet metal with LOTS of plastic attached

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

That could be it... The lookalike blank that is too short is either 22 or 24mm. How long is your Yamaha blank? I mean just the exposed metal, of course. I'll go check the place I got the other keys from, and a few others. Thanks.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

24mm? That is waaaay too short :-) My Yama 22B is 36mm long metalwise, and my lock needs the most of that. Good luck!

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I was too tired when I wrote that. It's 42 or 44mm, not 24. So your key blank isn't even close. I'll have to try, again, asking Darus to get one. He mailed the spare to me when he sent the bike back after "fixing" it, and it never arrived. He doesn't use package or letter tracking.

pluginride
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

He doesn't use package tracking! Well, how very convenient for him. Suggestion: next time, insist on it and offer to pay for it yourself.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

LeftieBiker wrote:

I was too tired when I wrote that. It's 42 or 44mm, not 24. So your key blank isn't even close.

The original key made of some soft sheet metal was 39mm long, but some 11.5mm of those stick out of the lock, and along with the gigantic plastic end it is an ideal candidate for being bent or sheard off while mounting or getting of the scooter. And because this is a known issue I got a set of FOUR keys along with my scooter :-)

So it might be worthwhile to check how much of the original key is actually INSIDE the lock.

I scond plugin's idea of making Darus send a replacement key via a shiper with tracking and paying the difference yourself. Even the Deutsche Post now offers the option of tracking with their packages. Then again that does not surprise too much because they split off their parcel service many years ago and named it DHL :-)

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Pretty much all of the key goes into the lock. It isn't just the key length: the point at which the shaft is planed (the 'notch') is in a different spot from the usual Chinese keys.

I'm going to ask Darus to get and send one, and I'll offer to pay the $.50 it costs to add delivery confirmation to an envelope or package, or the $3.00 or so it would cost to send it Priority mail. I tried to find one on my own, and they just aren't out there.

PJD
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

It appears the front shocks used on a lot of Chinese Scooters are a cheap copy of a Taiwanese original.
JohnnyJ and Klas from Sweden appear to have switched from mainland Chinese juddering copies to more solid Taiwan Chinese originals which they got from the Chinese confectioner of our bikes, Mujin "Mountain" Chen.

Can you provide more information about obtaining these improved front shocks? My CuMoCo Scooter, which uses a standard Chinese "maxi" scooter body and frame (the style with the big windshield) could use improved front shocks. The stock ones are basically "fake". They have about the same damping as a pogo stick. The oil in them has no function except lubrication and to provide an adjustable air-cushion-spring (more oil=stiffer) to argument the coil spring inside it.

PJD
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

retry:

Quote:

It appears the front shocks used on a lot of Chinese Scooters are a cheap copy of a Taiwanese original.
JohnnyJ and Klas from Sweden appear to have switched from mainland Chinese juddering copies to more solid Taiwan Chinese originals which they got from the Chinese confectioner of our bikes, Mujin "Mountain" Chen.

- MERollier

Can you provide more information about obtaining these improved front shocks?

My CuMoCo Scooter, which uses a standard Chinese "maxi" scooter body and frame (the style with the big windshield) could use improved front shocks. The stock ones are basically "fake". They have about the same damping as a pogo stick. The oil in them has no function except lubrication and to provide an adjustable air-cushion-spring (more oil=stiffer) to argument the coil spring inside it.

MEroller
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

PJD, as I wrote "JohnnyJ and Klas from Sweden" especially JohnnyJ should know more about how to get those better shocks. Mine came from my dealer who is no longer in business...

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

CHL lithium battery
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Mountain chen is my partner,you may send mail to him mountain.chen@gmail.com and purchase directly

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

It would be even better top be able to buy whole front steering assemblies from Taiwan. The Chinese units (forks excluded) are adequate out of the box, but are prone to invisible damage (as I think happened to mine) and early symptoms of failure (as PCarlson seems to be experiencing) later on. I've seen whole GY-6 assemblies for sale, so I suspect (hope!) they copied the whole unit, not just the forks.

IBScootn
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

LeftieBiker wrote:

"I think it will be a good idea to have a real scooter expert look at your front fork setup. It is the same kind of hardware as any stinking, fume-spewing scooter has :-)"

Would this be the GY6 scooters, or another designation? I heard some tapping in front on my last ride, and checked the front tire for foreign objects and the forks for play this evening. Negative on both. Even with with no play in the forks at all, the shuddering remains. I did notice that the front wheel doesn't turn as easily as I'd expect. Anyone else notice this? It would be nice if there were an aftermarket front end assembly for these scooters that was of higher quality and rigidity than the crap OEM unit.

Leftie, I was doing a V search and came across your old post. Regarding the front wheel not turning as easily as expected, I had the same thing happen on my bike. I kept fiddling with the brakes until I noticed that the disc was the problem. Then I noticed that the disc was moving in and out with the rim. Took the rim down to a wheel shop and it turned out one of the three wheel 'spokes' had a fracture which caused the wheel to lose roundness. Once fixed, the wheel turned easily. If you have an unbalanced front wheel, that could cause some shuddering in the front end. The wobble wasn't very noticeable on the bike, but when I removed the wheel, supported the axle on top of two cinder blocks and spun the wheel by hand, the wobble was very noticeable. Maybe worth a look.

On my 6100, I'm now past 5000 miles (8400 KMs) per the Cycle Analyst, not the inaccurate OEM odometer. Still going strong.

Best,

__________________

Motorcycles:
2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 75+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 800 miles so far.
2010 ZEV 6100, 72V, 40AH, 60+mph; Cycle Analyst, LED head lights, 3 Cell Log interfaces, TNC throttle and faster charger added. 8100 miles so far.

Big EV Grin. :)

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I'll check the wheel and brake disk for problems. Darus swears the wheel is fine, but that was just from him riding it briefly, IIRC.

LeftieBiker
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

The ZEV is off of warranty now: I bought it in July two years ago, although because of the shipping damage and return to ZEV I didn't really get to use it until mid-September. Anyway, the shudder in the front end remains, and now the front wheel bearing is groaning. I do have possibly better news, though: the other day I took my Sister for about a 10 mile ride; our combined weight is a couple of dozen pounds below the rated weight limit, but that was the first time I've taken a real ride with that much weight. I used the front brake only a few times, and only gingerly, of course. When I rode home afterwards, I noticed two things: the front suspension had gotten softer - more springiness in the undampened forks - and the shudder, while still there, was substantially reduced. I had the bike out for another ride this evening, for about 65km, and noticed that while the side to side wobble with hands off bars is unchanged, the severe bouncing on braking is still much less than it was. The wheel bearing is also louder, so I need to replace that ASAP. I don't suppose anyone knows of a Japanese or American bearing that will fit? I think I'll need to take the wheel off and have a shop replace it, unless it's *really* easy.

So, what do you folks think: did the extra weight partially 'unstick' a fork that was too stiff compared to its mate, or is the front caliper the culprit, and the extra weight loosened it up a bit? I want to get the bike working right, dammit, after never having it perform completely as it should. I've tried like Hell this Summer to find a shop that will work on it, but the only shops that work on scooters only work on brands with which they have a "relationship." It's a fair strain on my back and legs and hands just to adjust the drive chain on my EZIP, so tearing the whole front end down just isn't something I can do...

PJD
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Re: ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Did you ever remove the forks, remove the top plug and spring, and keeping fully extended, verify that there is the same level of oil in each of them? The oil lever dictates how much of an air cushion is in the shocks, which controls the spring rate. Spring pre-load is adjusted by adding spacers between the spring and the plug. Badly uneven oil levels may be contributing to the wobble.

Also, I had to replace my oil with a 50% mix original oil and 75W90 gear oil to get some degree of damping.

I have a bit of annoying hands-off handlebar wobble on my CuMoCo. I have been told that the problem is too much rake and trail in the fork geometry.

Regarding front wheel the bearings. Usually the bearing will tap out from the other side with a brass drift (or less desirable, a screwdriver) and hammer. Try to tap the bearing out as much as possible by the outer race - although this is less important if the bearing is already bad and it may not be possible anyway. There is a steel sleeve between the inner races which prevent lateral loading of the inner races when the axle bolt is tightened. Once the bearing is out, carefully measure its three dimensions with a micrometer caliper. Then look up "sealed bearings" on the internet, you will find several dealers that sell bearings of the dimensions you need. Drive in the new bearings by the outer race with a appropriate sized wrench socket (or better, copper pipe), making sure you remember the spacer sleeve.

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