ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

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Johnny J
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

I recieved the BMS today, but there was no connection diagram and no markings on the 5 cables that comes out of it.
Have e-mailed Mountain.

MEroller
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Any pics, Johnny?
My Thunder is currently being fitted with the central bleeding / balancing-type BMS of Emsiso, a Slowenian Company which is part of the Austrian Seidel Group. Apart from the normal BMS'y type of things such as logging charge cycles, storing and allowing display of individual cell voltages and the likes it has heaps of programmable additional facilities such as correct SOC assessment and display (in conjunction with an optional hall effect current sensor and display means) and cell temperature induced influence on the charger (with optional temp. sensors). I just hope my Thunder also gets a correctly working replacement charger this time.
The way things are looking it will also get a new wiring harness with thicker gauge wire and a current 8kW replacement motor. And proper battery bay sealing from above. It should get out of this mayhem better than new, far better than new :-)

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

Johnny J
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

BMS.jpg

Johnny J
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

New front shocks:

FShocks.jpg

MEroller
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Sadly my first reply to the pics (thanks Johnny for those!) sent the VisforVoltage board software into oblivion for some time and thus it got lost in the process :-( So here I go again:
This BMS is different from the little shiny aluminum box that the BMS in my Thunder was. But it appears to be of the centralized bleeding type. It sure needs a proper wiring diagram!!!

The new shocks look shockingly similar to the original ones! Let's hope that their inner workings are better adapted to Thunder with more precision and tuned spring and samping rates...

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

LeftieBiker
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

It may be that the first forks were Chinese copies of the Taiwanese forks you just got, from one of the Taiwanese scooters. Taiwanese workmanship is generally much better.

MEroller
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Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

MEroller wrote:

... Let's hope that their inner workings are better adapted to Thunder with more precision and tuned spring and samping rates...

Of course I meant to write damping :-)

Leftie, you could be right about mainland copy vs. island original. Mountain is refering to Taiwanese shocks in this context.

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Hi Johnny J

That is the EXACT same BMS that I received. I got 4 of them to install...wow, so many wires. Yes I have an installation manual (PDF with photo's really). I will try and upload these here. I'll just take screen captures. Back soon...

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Here are the photos from the PDF manual for the 24 cell model.

Where to Store the BMS
Storage.jpg

BMS and BUS adapter
BMS and BUS 24 cell.jpg

BUS adapter pinout for 24 cell
BUS adapter 24 cell.jpg

Using the BUS adapter to monitor cells
Using Bus adapter.jpg

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Grrr. Does anyone know how I can upload photos so they don't get squashed to 500 pixels in height?

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

LeftieBiker
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Joined: 07/09/2011
Points: 877
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Upload them to Photobucket, then instead of linking the whole photo, use the thumbnail link code. You will see small photos here, but if you click on them you get the full-sized ones.

Johnny J
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Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

I have those documents, problem is it´s not for the exact same BMS, ours have 5 wires coming out, so I got this pic from Joey (Mountains tech)

BMD Joey.jpg

I still have some questions though f.ex. the B- in and Out - Discharge wires are very small and can certainly not handle 180A, so what is the thought here?

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

One thing that worries me is my Cycle Analyst. With the BMS it requires the charger negative to be seperated from the battery negative. This sucks because I have the charger negative and battery negative together at the moment so I can see power coming out of the battery but also power from the charger going into the battery. This way the Ah count up and when I charge, the Ah count back down to 0Ah.

How have others overcome this?

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

LeftieBiker
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Joined: 07/09/2011
Points: 877
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

The idea that you can keep track of every watt used is an illusion, at least if you do it with a CA alone. Connect the CA so it counts down pack usage as usual, and use a Kill O Watt meter, connected to the grid end of your charger, to count what the charger uses. That way all of the many, many watts that get wasted as charger heat can be counted as well.

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Thats not my point at all. I use the CA to count Ah used and if I stop at the shops and plug in that Ah used number will count toward zero while charging. I want to keep this feature with the BMS. I'm asking how others have kept this feature whilst using a BMS.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Thats not my point at all. I use the CA to count Ah used and if I stop at the shops and plug in that Ah used number will count toward zero while charging. I want to keep this feature with the BMS. I'm asking how others have kept this feature whilst using a BMS.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
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Points: 837
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Well, I would say SOMEWHERE within your ride those two negatives NEED to come together again, else the battery will not be chargable, right? I think a diagram of some sort would help heaps to get a brainstorming round started. Maybe together with a short explanation for the BMS instructions why it must be connected differently?

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Hi MEroller.

The diagram that I got sent with the BMS shows that the charger "-" needs to go to the BMS now. I assume so the BMS can turn the charger on and off. I thought you had a BMS and a CA. I know the power measured isn't 100% correct but the Ah gauge certainly helps a lot as a fuel gauge.

Here's a link to my photobucket image.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
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Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 837
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Phil, I just got a probably similar kind of BMS installed in my Fury Thunder, the Emsiso BMS2405, but I have received no feedback that anything had to be changed with the CA shunt. On the contrary, it is an important part in the Kelly pimping that was done at the same time :-) As the complete battery current, charge, discharge and regen is now routed through the BMS, the natural position for the CA shunt is between Battery - and the BMS. Right?

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Oh yeah. Of course! I must have had a slow day?! I know I currently have battery - on the shunt and have the charger - on the other side. Because originally I had the charger - on the battery - directly. Silly. Yes as long as the shunt is between battery - and the BMS it should still count the charger as -10A and count backwards just the way I like. I've once done over 120km riding in one day Christmas shopping going from one shopping mall to another charging wherever I could, that Ah counting down was great. I never let it go past 44Ah but at the end of the day I had consumed a total of 98Ah and had regenerated (regen plus charger) about 50+ Ah. That's before I started logging my km and Ah's

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
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Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 837
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Ah, don't you just LOVE this forum? Sometimes it helps to bring one's muddled mind back on track :-)

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

Johnny J
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Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Mr. Carlson! Have you had the opportunity to look into my wire concerns above?

Johnny

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Yeah. It's got me stumped too? I haven't heard anything from eRider about how to install it yet either.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

Johnny J
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Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Philip! I do not know it you have this diagram, just got it from Joey.
I sent you a message, e-mail me if you want it in higher resolution.

Wirning diagram mindre.jpg

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Hi All,

I have been absent from this forum for a bit.

Here is my 1 YEAR UPDATE!!!

7909km
138 FULL charge cycles (charged 255 times), At this rate it will take me 21 years to use 3000 FULL charge cycles to reach 80% capacity
6916Ah used
Average of 62.96 Wh/km
or 100.73 Wh/m ( I think that's right, just times by 1.6)
Battery capacity still hanging around 101.6% capacity (50.8Ah)
Used $74.69 in electricity for the year!!
0.94 cents per km, that's UNDER 1c per km!
Still getting 80km / charge
I recently rode 68.6km and consumed 42.04Ah

Now I am out of winter, at FULL throttle and 112Amps the battery voltage only sags to 74.4v now. So it seems the CHL batteries have survived the winter well. Last night after 74.8km and 44.9Ah used, at FULL throttle it was still only sagging to 70.8v.

I still don't have a BMS installed (due to back injury) but I plan on installing it this weekend and I plan on taking photo's to help others. Thanks to everyone for info about the installation of it. I hate taking the battery past 41Ah and will not take it past 45Ah (if I can help it) until I get a BMS installed. But I've had these CHL batteries down to 41Ah+ used quite a few times and everything is still working fine.

Well today my ODO reads 8012km and I got the scooter on Sep 23 last year but I couldn't be bothered getting all the info again :-)

Oh, and best of all, the bike still performs as good as it did on day one. I have worn the suspension in a bit, worn the seat in. But not much has really gone wrong, I'm pretty happy. All new technology will have it's "bugs" and I was expecting it, but best of all with the 7909km on my scooter and 2200km on my wife's scooter, we have taken 10,109km off the petrol car and saved $1410 in petrol which we used to help buy ourselves a new Nissan Leaf and got rid of the petrol car all together!

Electric is the way to go. But with free parking for motorbikes at work compared to $12/day for car parking, I'll continue to ride my great little Erider PDT scooter.

If anyone in Australia is reading this, please contact Eric at Erider in Melbourne (www.erider.com.au) and get yourself one of these great little scooters, you won't regret it....I certainly haven't!!!

Cheers!

Phil...

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
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Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 837
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Still 3 days to go for the full year, but this all sounds rather reassuring :-)
As for your on-board energy usage, I am a little surprised about your higher average of 62.96 Wh/km, where I am consistently in the range of 50 to 56 Wh/km, despite my battery current draw peaking at around 180A during acceleration (and I tend to take advantage of that as often as I can :-). But then again my bike will not go much faster than 76km/h and sits around 70...80A at that point. Your Lightning Bolt can go a little faster, as the Sevcon pumps in current to all three phases and does it's field weakening trick up there too. I am at full "throttle" about 60% of my daily commute...

Back injury => not good... Don't overdo it with your BMS installation, that kind of work is not very kind to the back.

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

Johnny J
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Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

I have now taken my Thunder apart to mount the BMS and Cycle Analyst.

First thing I did was measuring the voltage of the 24 CHL batteries and...they were all between 3.343 and 3.345V!!!
2 thousands of a Volt difference!

I know measuring them resting doesn't give you the right picture, but it´s still quite amazing :-)

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

MEroller wrote:

I am a little surprised about your higher average of 62.96 Wh/km, where I am consistently in the range of 50 to 56 Wh/km

Yes, Weight makes a bit difference. I should lose some weight to increase range ;-) Yet the scooter still performs quite well.

I passed 8120km this morning. Still only seeing 74v under full 115A. I did a LOT of driving yesterday and clocked up 86km in a single day. Not on a single charge but I consumed 54Ah to do this.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

Johnny J
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Joined: 07/08/2008
Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Phillip!

Have you gotten anywhere with the BMS installation?

I have just ordered 2 more Thunders for a couple of friends and an extra "Puma" motor with thicker windings, should do more RPM with the same voltage accoring to Mountain.

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Johnny J wrote:

Phillip!

Have you gotten anywhere with the BMS installation?

I have just ordered 2 more Thunders for a couple of friends and an extra "Puma" motor with thicker windings, should do more RPM with the same voltage accoring to Mountain.

No, I didn't get around to it last weekend and this weekend I have family coming up.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

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