ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

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MEroller
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Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 844
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Yes, even I was eying a Puma motor or at least Phils slightly beefed up 8/???kW motor as a replacement for my burnt out 5/8kW motor, but sadly exactly the same motor model was put in by the technical rep. of my importer :-(

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

titine360
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Joined: 02/01/2009
Points: 38
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Hi all,
I'd like to know if any of you would not have had a problem with the KEY SWITCH?
Indeed it has been 5 years since I regularly change my KEY SWITCH on my scooter now equip xm3500li Sevcon Gen4 motor 8kw in 180A and MR Chen
I know that the Sevcon has a preload resistor
but before that the voltage is not in the key switch?
This made ​​the 95 volts (27 cells) create an electric arc in the ignition key I check the ignition key and indeed there is a little black (burn a son of 2)
Sometimes the wire unsoldered it!

Would you have a solution?

Limit the current in the ignition key?
or install a preload on the ignition key?

thank you very much

laurent

__________________

SOSSON

Johnny J
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Joined: 07/08/2008
Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

titine360 wrote:

Hi all,
I'd like to know if any of you would not have had a problem with the KEY SWITCH?
Indeed it has been 5 years since I regularly change my KEY SWITCH on my scooter now equip xm3500li Sevcon Gen4 motor 8kw in 180A and MR Chen
I know that the Sevcon has a preload resistor
but before that the voltage is not in the key switch?
This made ​​the 95 volts (27 cells) create an electric arc in the ignition key I check the ignition key and indeed there is a little black (burn a son of 2)
Sometimes the wire unsoldered it!

Would you have a solution?

Limit the current in the ignition key?
or install a preload on the ignition key?

thank you very much

laurent

On my Thunder 8kW there is a main contactor, 200A rated (relay) which is switched on from the Sevcon (coil voltage) and the Sevcon is turned on from the key switch.
No preload resistor is needed.
Actually I have had some problems with this contactor, A couple of times it wouldn't "click" and I this is because the contactor coil is 72V and the voltage from the Sevcon is only 61V for some reason. So I have ordered a new 60V coil 200A contactor.

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

BIG UPDATE! 14/10/2012 @ 8313.9km

I FINALLY got some time to install the BMS on my scooter. I've been dreading this for quite some time as I knew it would be a big job, and as requested, I took lots of photo's along the way. My first task was to test each and every wire on that BMS plug to make sure all 25 wires worked and that none of them were short circuited!
BMS with round connectors.JPG

After I did this, I stripped down the bike to the bare bones to attach all of those sensor wires. The CHL batteries come standard with 6mm square push on connectors especially for BMS wires! So I cut off all of those round connectors and put on all new RED square push on connectors.
New red square connectors.JPG
BMS with all square connectors.JPG

Then I found that according to the Schematic provided a few posts ago that "P-" "B-" and "Out-" from the BMS ALL connect to battery negative, they all had different connectors so I chopped them off and put on proper round connectors and connected to battery negative. This makes me wonder if this BMS can NOT turn off the charger if required. The information about this BMS is quite terrible and sketchy. Also looking at the schematic it looks like "Kout" is to be wired in PARALLEL with the normal key switch, this is pointless because the BMS could not turn off the controller if something went wrong because the KEY would still be closing the circuit. So I found another point to break 12v to kill the controller.

Now I had to install a new 12v connector on the BMS as the supplied connector had no partner in the wiring loom.
New 12v BMS connector.JPG

So now the fun bit starts, CAREFULLY connecting up all those BMS wires.
Installing wires.JPG
Now, fully installed. Time to test all of the cell voltages EASILY!! The holes are a perfect fit for my multimeter probes!! Yay!
Fully installed.JPG
BMS 24 cell plug.JPG
Here were my cell voltages after an overnight charge and about 3 hours off charge while working on bike
Cell 1: 3.45v
Cell 2: 3.46v
Cell 3: 3.45v
Cell 4: 3.49v
Cell 5: 3.46v
Cell 6: 3.49v
Cell 7: 3.46v
Cell 8: 3.46v
Cell 9: 3.45v
Cell 10: 3.45v
Cell 11: 3.34v
Cell 12: 3.39v
Cell 13: 3.42v
Cell 14: 3.45v
Cell 15: 3.44v
Cell 16: 3.44v
Cell 17: 3.45v
Cell 18: 3.46v
Cell 19: 3.34v
Cell 20: 3.41v
Cell 21: 3.48v
Cell 22: 3.39v
Cell 23: 3.44v
Cell 24: 3.44v

To me this seems pretty bloomin good considering I've done 8313.9km over 13 months with NO BMS installed. But cells 11 and 19 looks a little flatter than the rest at 3.34v each.

Here you can see where I have installed the BMS. I have mounted it inbetween the front frame and it fits perfectly. Just 4 zip ties hold it in place perfectly so theres no moving or bumping. It's like it was meant to go there because it sits fluch so the plastic cover will still go one easily.
BMS installed.JPG
BMS installed full.JPG

TESTING BMS...
Ok so I've done my job of installing the BMS, now to test it. I turn on the bike and you can hear a relay 'click' inside the BMS and the bike turns on as normal. If I dis-connect 12v from the bms you hear a 'click' and it opens the "Kout" wires and turns off the controller...Good. I then plug 12v back in and it turns the controller back on...Good. I pull the white connector with 12 wires from the cells and it turns off the controller, and it does the same if I pull the other large white connector with cell wires.

BUT.....here's my problem. I tried to simulate a single cell hitting 0v but disconnecting cell 23 sensor wire...NOTHING?! I then pulled cell 22, NOTHING, 21, 20, 19, 18 still nothing?!?!?!?! It still kept the controller ON!!

So at this stage I am a bit worried that the BMS is NOT doing it's job correctly if it doesn't turn off the controller is a single cell hits low voltage!

Has ANYONE installed this BMS? Can they tell me why the BMS will NOT turn off the controller when I pull a single sensor wire? The pack voltage was still around 82v but that shouldn't matter if a single cell hits 0v surely?

Confused?

Anyway, I re-assembled the bike and found it wasn't working anymore?!?! Weird things were happening, the motor would spin for about 1/2 second then die, the LCD fuel gauge would dim and reset when hitting the brake levers, blinkers would flash one and no more??? Long story short, I found out it was the 20A fuse AFTER the 12v DCDC converter. So if you suffer those sort of weird things, check the 12v 20A fuse.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

TEST RIDE OF DEATH (with BMS)

After work today I decided to ride the bike with my newly installed BMS to see if a cell would die or if the BMS would protect the battery.

I went for a long drive after work driving mostly at full throttle. I was not giving ANY consideration into fuel economy.

Long story short I noticed around 43Ah used my pack voltage started to sag below 70v when I pulled a bit more than 6kw. At 45Ah I noticed the power of the scooter had dropped. It would still accelerate but at a slower pace. I also noticed when I was at a set of traffic lights my pack voltage was at 75v!!! The lowest I've EVER seen it! Now I was getting worried as I was still about 5km from home.

I turned into the final street towards home. A nice 60kmh zone, I glided downhill easily but when I started heading uphill, I saw the pack voltage hit 67v, then 66v, then BANG!! I had lost power!! BUT, the good news is.....I heard the relay "CLICK" inside the BMS unit. The controller LED was off but the instrument panel was still on. After about 10 seconds I heard the relay "CLICK" again and I had power back. But now my pack voltage with NO-LOAD was sitting at 70.2v!! I performed a U-turn and slowly headed UP the hill to my house, only 50m now....CLICK. BMS shut me down again. I turned the bike on and off, nothing...then CLICK, I was in action again. Not wanting to walk my bike, I drove the bike at 10 - 15kmh and turned into my driveway with pack voltage reading 71.1v

I quickly ran inside and got a multi-meter and proceeded to read the voltages of all the cells to see how many (if any) had died. The controller has a 60v low voltage cut-off so because the BMS cut me off at 66v it goes to show you can't rely on LVC.

I rode 66.4km and used 48.90Ah. Here are my cell voltages after the ride and after 10 minutes rest (getting multi-meter and chair)

Pack voltage 71.9v no load

Cell 1: 3.05v
Cell 2: 3.02v
Cell 3: 3.04v
Cell 4: 3.04v
Cell 5: 3.03v
Cell 6: 3.02v
Cell 7: 3.04v
Cell 8: 3.05v
Cell 9: 3.06v
Cell 10: 3.05v
Cell 11: 3.03v
Cell 12: 3.03v
Cell 13: 2.98v
Cell 14: 3.03v
Cell 15: 3.05v
Cell 16: 3.04v
Cell 17: 3.05v
Cell 18: 3.05v
Cell 19: 3.00v
Cell 20: 3.02v
Cell 21: 3.06v
Cell 22: 3.04v
Cell 23: 2.50v
Cell 24: 2.97v

So it looks like cell 23 hit 2.50v so the BMS did its job!

WOOHOO!!!
As I write this, my bike is just about finished charging and has recharged from 48.90Ah back down to 0Ah and beyond by 0.23AH. So the battery has been TOTALLY refilled.

Measure cells.JPG
48.90Ah.jpg
Cell 23 - 2.5v.jpeg
Cell 8 - 3.05v.jpeg

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

Johnny J
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Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

pcarlson1979 wrote:

Then I found that according to the Schematic provided a few posts ago that "P-" "B-" and "Out-" from the BMS ALL connect to battery negative, they all had different connectors so I chopped them off and put on proper round connectors and connected to battery negative. This makes me wonder if this BMS can NOT turn off the charger if required.

As I understand it the "P-" is the negative input of the charger and therefore the BMS can stop it.
Does this make sense?

Johnny

IBScootn
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Joined: 01/03/2011
Points: 257
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Pcarlson, congrats on getting the BMS installed and finding the weak cells. To test how low the cells are actually going, you need to do that under load. The cells should pop back toward Vnom as they rest, so seeing cell 23 at 2.5V is very low. I expect it hit 2.0 before the BMS cut-out.

But now that you have balance leads connected, take the last eight cell balance leads and run them into a cell-log 8M or better yet a Cell-log 8S (with data logging). That will give accurate cell voltage readings and an alarm if your weakest cell (#23) goes too low. Great tool to add redundancy to your BMS.

BTW, did you try to disconnect one of your balance leads and see if the BMS still allowed the controller to move the motor?

__________________

Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Big EV Grin. :)

M.Chen
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Joined: 07/19/2012
Points: 93
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Johnny J wrote:
titine360 wrote:

Hi all,
I'd like to know if any of you would not have had a problem with the KEY SWITCH?
Indeed it has been 5 years since I regularly change my KEY SWITCH on my scooter now equip xm3500li Sevcon Gen4 motor 8kw in 180A and MR Chen
I know that the Sevcon has a preload resistor
but before that the voltage is not in the key switch?
This made ​​the 95 volts (27 cells) create an electric arc in the ignition key I check the ignition key and indeed there is a little black (burn a son of 2)
Sometimes the wire unsoldered it!

Would you have a solution?

Limit the current in the ignition key?
or install a preload on the ignition key?

thank you very much

laurent

On my Thunder 8kW there is a main contactor, 200A rated (relay) which is switched on from the Sevcon (coil voltage) and the Sevcon is turned on from the key switch.
No preload resistor is needed.
Actually I have had some problems with this contactor, A couple of times it wouldn't "click" and I this is because the contactor coil is 72V and the voltage from the Sevcon is only 61V for some reason. So I have ordered a new 60V coil 200A contactor.

Johnny,you may get rid of the relay,it is not important,actually Sevcon controller is strong enough which don't need relay protection.

antiscab
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Joined: 07/07/2007
Points: 1686
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

The BMS won't shut things down in the event of one of the voltage measurement wires going open circuit (a common failure mode)

It's a common design trait of central BMS, the idea being a bad battery will stop the bike, but a bad connection won't.

That's because the voltage measurement within the BMS is in series.

So say you have two cells, one 3.3v, the other 3.4v.

if the middle wire went open circuit, the BMS would read the average of the two cells (3.35v, or 6.7v)

To test the low voltage cutout (which you have already done) you need to lower the voltage measured by the lines to below 2.5v.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $3000
Cost to do it again: $1000 + $3800 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $1500 (lasts longer)
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $7560 + $1000 + $1600 + $4000 servicing
Total spent: $20405
Total to do again: $10905
Total to have used a petrol bike: $21600
Total distance travelled so far: 102'120km

Other vehicles:
2008 Mazda 2 conversion
2009 Blade Electron
1997 Prius - plugin hybrid mod

pcarlson1979
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Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Update: 16 Oct 2012 @ 8435.4km

After my long ride until BMS shut down yesterday. I let it charge overnight while I slept. I woke up this morning to a battery pack at 87.6v and reading -0.72Ah.

I went for another long ride after work today and managed to get 68.1km and consumed 48.25Ah. I got home this time without BMS shut down. I still had around 70.1v under normal acceleration and down to 69.7v under full throttle even though I had used 48.25Ah. Much better.

I got home and tested all the cell voltages again and all of them range from 3.08v to 3.10v EXCEPT cell 23 which reads 2.70v. So this tells me that cell 23 is my weakest. When I get a chance, after a FULL charge I will charge cell 23 by itself with my single cell charger. But still, 48.25Ah from a 50Ah cell is pretty good by my books.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Once I top up cell 23 I don't think I will drain the pack until BMS cutoff because hitting 2v is a bit low in my opinion. I would rather the BMS shut down at 2.5v

But anyway. It's now 11:30pm and the bike has just finished charging and it reads -0.08Ah. Ill see what it says in the morning. It seems this centralized BMS doesn't balance the cells.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

Johnny J
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Joined: 07/08/2008
Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

I'm sure that it has top end shunt balancing.
What do you think about the "P-" to charger as I wrote above?
Did you get my e-mail?

MEroller
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Points: 844
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

48.25Ah from a 50Ah cell is pretty good by my books too :-) My BMS shuts off after bearly 35Ah from my 40ah cells, but already when one cell goes below 2.3V. I am also not sure yet if my new BMS does any shunt balancing, but I cannot log that propperly. I can only log the last 1h at 1A charge current which is controlled via the BMS and no longer the charger, and it looks like an almost perfect volcano cone with a single cell reaching the peak of 3.71V at which the BMS terminates the charge. The voltage dropoff is almost symmetrical to the 1A end charge. And at the cutoff point my lowest cell was sitting on 3.409V. After about 1h they were all in almost perfect agreement again with between 3.361 and 3.370V. Whatever...

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

pcarlson1979
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Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

My mistake. By bad cell 23 stops after 48.90Ah.

But in saying that I will top charge it by itself on the weekend. When I get a chance ill post my cell voltages after an overnight charge. I think it may be doing top balancing because I got up this morning and my CA had risen to -0.79Ah which means the charger pumped in an extra 0.71Ah while I was sleeping.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Johnny J wrote:

I'm sure that it has top end shunt balancing.
What do you think about the "P-" to charger as I wrote above?
Did you get my e-mail?

Yes I got your email Johnny. There's so much conflicting info. I wish they made an English manual for this BMS. You may very well be able to connect P- to the charger minus but I'm happy with it the way it is. As long as it can shut down the bike on a low cell I'm happy. But according to an email from Mountain I have wired it all up correctly? I have a Chinese friend at work so ill get him to read that manual for me.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

So I have finished a full charge after work and here are my cell voltages

Cell 1: 3.73v
Cell 2: 3.63v
Cell 3: 3.69v
Cell 4: 3.65v
Cell 5: 3.71v
Cell 6: 3.67v
Cell 7: 3.68v
Cell 8: 3.63v
Cell 9: 3.77v
Cell 10: 3.71v
Cell 11: 3.60v
Cell 12: 3.76v
Cell 13: 3.52v
Cell 14: 3.76v
Cell 15: 3.62v
Cell 16: 3.77v
Cell 17: 3.76v
Cell 18: 3.71v
Cell 19: 3.44v
Cell 20: 3.62v
Cell 21: 3.76v
Cell 22: 3.66v
Cell 23: 3.34v
Cell 24: 3.36v

So I will try and charge cells 23, 24, 19 and 13 manually.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Ok so my charger just finished charging cell 23. It took nearly 2 hours but it put in 2.36Ah

Charge Cell 23.JPG

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

IBScootn
Offline
Joined: 01/03/2011
Points: 257
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Many BMSs are incomplete. They won't tell you if a cell is not being monitored and many don't show real-time per cell voltages. If you would like to know if a cell gets disconnected from the BMS, which cell went out of range, what voltage the cell was at, or just want to add redundancy to an existing BMS consider adding $14 Cell-Logs to your balance leads.

Here's a link to the cell-log:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10952__Cell_Log_8M_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2_8S_Lipo.html

Here's a link to a board that makes using up to four Cell-Logs (up to 32 cells) supper easy (watch the video):
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37121

Here's a link to a guy that used that board to improve the cell monitoring on his Zero e-moto:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=40849

These Cell-Logs look big in the photos but they are puny: display about 0.75"x1.0" and the whole module only 2.5"x1.5". Amazing, inexpensive, and accurate devices.

Many other posts on these Cell-Logs out at Endless-sphere.com.

__________________

Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Big EV Grin. :)

M.Chen
Offline
Joined: 07/19/2012
Points: 93
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Good selected lithium battery don't need advance BMS,just protection BMS is enough !

IBScootn
Offline
Joined: 01/03/2011
Points: 257
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

M.Chen wrote:

Good selected lithium battery don't need advance BMS,just protection BMS is enough !

But this BMS isn't protecting the battery pack if a wire comes loose or gets broken. A Cell-Log will alarm on this error.

I used to think a BMS was enough until a friend had some broken cables and managed to over-charge some of his cells for over a month before he realized the BMS wasn't detecting the lack of cell signals. On e-motos, the battery pack is too big of an investment to hope that a wire never fails! Adding three to four Cell-logs is cheap insurance.

I really hope e-moto manufacturers improve their BMSs to at least verify that a cell is actually being monitored.

__________________

Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Big EV Grin. :)

pcarlson1979
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Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Hi all,

After charging cell 23 manually last night I went for another long ride. This time I got 72.3km and used 50.27Ah and still no BMS shut down. I'm very impressed. So here are the voltages after my ride.

Cell 1: 2.89v
Cell 2: 2.82v
Cell 3: 2.87v
Cell 4: 2.86v
Cell 5: 2.84v
Cell 6: 2.82v
Cell 7: 2.86v
Cell 8: 2.87v
Cell 9: 2.89v
Cell 10: 2.88v
Cell 11: 2.85v
Cell 12: 2.85v
Cell 13: 2.74v
Cell 14: 2.84v
Cell 15: 2.87v
Cell 16: 2.86v
Cell 17: 2.88v
Cell 18: 2.89v
Cell 19: 2.79v
Cell 20: 2.83v
Cell 21: 2.90v
Cell 22: 2.86v
Cell 23: 2.76v
Cell 24: 2.72v

So it looks like cell 23 is more in balance with the rest of the pack now.
Cell 13 and 24 are the lowest. But since I'm getting over 50Ah out of them I'm happy to keep it the way it is.

I will upload a photo when I get on the Mac.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

M.Chen
Offline
Joined: 07/19/2012
Points: 93
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Yes,you just need to do one time job to fill cell 23 and then it will catch up with other cells forever.....that's CHL battery character.

So that we don't need automatically balancing or active BMS,whose technology is not mature by now.

Thank you for your good job,you are first user who well understand our BMS and battery balancing.

pcarlson1979
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Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

UPDATE 19 October 2012 @ 8513.3Km

Here's the photo from my big 50.27Ah ride yesterday...

Here you can see I have done 72.5Km on this battery charge, my STANDING voltage is 67.8V and I have consumed 50.27Ah!! Under normal acceleration I could still pull around 95A but the voltage would DROP to around 62v!!! The lowest I've EVER seen so I wasn't comfortable going full throttle.

I was SO happy when I plugged the bike in to charge, within about 30 seconds the voltage had bounced up to 75v. I woke up this morning after letting it charge all night and once again, the voltage was sitting nicely at 87.6v and the CA read -0.76Ah so it had charged all the way from +50.27Ah down to zero and 0.76Ah past. My ride into work was great, pulling 113A and only dropping to 74.4v the bike nearly felt a bit faster. But now that I have done all this testing I don't plan on doing it unless needed because draining that much may shorten the battery life.

So I'm happy to say at least these CHL batteries now have some low voltage cell protection.

50.27Ah.JPG

Oh and here is a photo of me charging cell 23 manually using my "Swallow DC charger" from my RC car racing days. It has a Lithium battery setting. I set it for 5A (maximum it can do) but when I started charging cell 23 it had already dropped to 1.42A because the charger saw it was nearly full and was in CV mode and the current kept dropping bit by bit until it was full. I really like this big round connector, it makes monitoring the cell voltages very easy, plus if I need to top up a cell I just need to put in some leads.
Charge Cell 23.JPG

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
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Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

UPDATE: BMS installed onto a Thunder PDT scooter. 27/10/2012

It was a nice sunny day and I thought it would only take 4 hours to install the BMS...Boy was I wrong.
It took me about an hour to test the BMS cable and organise the wires into groups 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20, 21-24 and cable 0 by itself. And to identify 6 and 9 because both look similar.

Anyway, it was a smooth operation as I had done this to my bike a few weeks ago. After I stripped the bike down to it's bare bones, I actually like the design a little better because it's easier to get to the cells. Once all the wires were connected, I tested the voltage of all the cells. The bike has done 6559km without ANY BMS but the customer had kept a detailed log and rarly used more than 37Ah. EVERY SINGLE cell was sitting at 3.29v after 35.67Ah had been consumed!! Wow!! perfect balance. Makes my battery look bad now :-) Clicking through the Cycle analyst I see he averaged 86km/h and hit a top speed on 94.5km/h to get to my house 42km away. The Vmin was only 72.3v!

Here is the bike before I started
Before.jpeg

BMS cord after I connected 24 red plugs
BMS cord with red lugs.jpeg

Pulling apart the Thunder
Stripped.jpeg

Pulled out the rubber mat covering the CHL cells
No Mat.jpeg

Cells before BMS wires
Before BMS wires.jpeg

Cells after the BMS wires
Cells with BMS wires.jpeg

Connecting the Kout wires, they split the YELLOW wire and have matching connectors to open the Yellow wire to kill the controller if something goes wrong. Also connecting the 12v plug to a matching connector right next to the Yellow wire. The 12v Green/Black plug, the Green is NEGATIVE and the BLACK is positive?! It matches the BMS fine.
Kout and 12v.jpeg

BMS fully installed upside down and large connector next to it. There was very little space left as the seat bucket just touches the BMS as it is.
BMS fully installed.jpeg

BMS now installed and the ODO reads 6559km
6559km without BMS.jpeg

All finished.
Finished.jpeg

I started working on the bike at 10am pretty much on the dot, and only stopped for 5 minutes to have lunch, and finished putting the last screw in at 5pm. So it took pretty much 7 hours!! It's a pretty big job. Installing the BMS push on connectors only takes about 10 minutes, connecting Kout and 12v maybe 2 minutes, all the ground wires maybe 2 minutes, the rest is assembly, disassembly and placing the parts and testing. The best thing of all is there were no left over screws thanks to my meticulous laying out of screws and connectors.

I test rode the bike blasting full throttle up to 44Ah consumed and only dropping to 70.5v. Perfect. I actually really like the suspension on this bike.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
MEroller's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 844
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Oh boy, this is the Thunder I should have here: CHL cells, Sevcon controller (94.5km/h!!!), the connection box, and now even a BMS! I have a similar one now, but of Slowenian origin, and of course I have the Cycle Analyst in the same spot, though I keep mine straight because I tend to look straight ahead and thus like to have the CA perpendicular in my view :-)

As for the upside-down BMS basically touching the seat bucket - there must be something gravely wrong with that Thunder:
BMS fully installed.jpeg

It is actually sitting below the crossbeam on which the seat bucket sits on top of two at least 10mm high plastic lugs which are underneath the former battery compartment (which probably houses the DC-DC converter and the main circuit braker), so there should be ample vertical space between the underside of the seat bucket and the BMS?

Oh, and another question: Where is the (on-board?) charger in this Thunder? I gather it has the higher 50Ah CHL cells, so it won't have the space it has in my scoot below the steel plate that holds the controller up front? I seem to see it situated at the back of the battery bay in this pic, on the left edge, mounted transversally:
No Mat.jpeg

I found it interesting that you feel Thunder is easier to strip to the battery than your Lightning, because Thunder is quite complex in this respect and really NEEDS the great care you took concerning all the different types of screws and bolts to get it back together without having anything left over :-)

And I am intrigued that you can sense a postive difference in the Thunder suspension compared your VK Lightning, as they should be extremely similar in this respect, apart from maybe the rake of Thunder being a few degrees more than the Lightning's?

Good job!!!

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

Johnny J
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Joined: 07/08/2008
Points: 377
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

There is an onboard charger on the Thunder.
I have also mounted the BMS on mine and took the opportunity to make some changes.
Since I have the smaller Sevcon which produces more heat I bought a large plate of 5mm Aluminium where I put a heat sink, the controller and the BMS.
The charger is placed underneath this plate. I have also put the Cycle Analyst Shunt under it.
Top.jpg

Regarding any difference in suspension, I really think it partly comes to that the frame construction is more rigid on the Thunder than the "Lightning Bolt".
I had the predecessor before, the VK2008 and it did not feel as "stiff" as the Thunder.

pcarlson1979
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Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

There is a 72v 10A charger (87.6v peak) onboard this Thunder. It is fitted nice and snug underneath the metal bracket holding the controller and Cycle Analyst shunt. It's a bit hard to see in this photo, but it is the gold coloured box underneath the metal bracket. Oh and as for the seat bucket, yes it screws and mounts on that cross-bar, but then it dips WAY down nearly to the batteries to make up the deep helmet storage area.
Charger.PNG

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
MEroller's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 844
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Thanks Phil for the clarifcation concerning the charger - so it is in the same place as in my bike, despite the higher 50Ah CHL... And it is correct, behind the bracket the seat bucket dips down rather low - and is still too shallow to take my full-size helmet.

Johnny, I also replaced the steel sheet with an aluminum plate (but in my case just 2mm thick), because I figured the slightly beefed-up Kelly KEB72801X might get a little hotter than the orignal KBL72201 in my Fury-Thunder.

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 465
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

UPDATE: 6 November 2012 @ 8638km

Something odd is happening with my bike. I have noticed over that last 2 days that my voltage is only sagging to 76.9v under full throttle! This is obviously a GOOD thing! I'm not sure if it the warmer weather or if it's because of the BMS. But this morning on my way to work, I opened up the throttle 100% and it accelerated quite well and I notived I was only pulling between 95 to 105 Amps. Then I noticed the voltage was sitting around 76.9 to 77.2v!! But I notice the power was still around the 8000w mark. I thought maybe because it was only after 1.8Ah from home. Then after work I had to do some erins and then on my way home, after 12Ah of usage, I was still holding 76.9v under full throttle!! And then again this morning the same thing happened. I can't believe the voltage drop to be so small. 80.0v at rest and 76.9v at full throttle!

Either way, I'm pretty impressed!

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

MEroller
MEroller's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 844
Re: ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

Even the CHL will excel in warmer weather :-) With my GBS the effect is very extreme, the CHL seem to have a better balance of hot and cold operation, but warm is always better for a battery than cold.

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

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