Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

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Carolg
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Joined: 07/18/2012
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Hi,

My name is Carol, I am in Brisbane Australia and have difficulty getting help or advise with my ebikes as our auto electricians no nothing about ebikes in Brisbane, so I have had to learn as much as I can to fix any problems I may have with my electric ebikes. Right now I know I don't know everything about ebikes, however, would love to learn.

I have 2 ebikes, both of them are 48 volts and 500watts Brushless. The first ebike works just fine, however, I seem to have an ongoing problem with the second ebike. I Turn the ignition on and the motor/back wheel starts moving without touching the throttle. At first I thought there may be a problem with the throttle. I had 2 spare throttles that I knew were working on the first ebike, unfortunately, no throttle seems to be acknowledged. So when I turn the ignition I must have the brakes on otherwise the ebike just goes like the throttle is on full. It will go without having the throttle connected.

This has all been trial and error for me trying to eliminate the problem. Secondly, I thought it may be the motor, so I tried a little experiment. I put both ebikes very close together and connected the wires coming out of the hub from the first ebike that works just fine to the wires on the second ebike that moves on its own. I couldn't believe that the motor from the first ebike started moving on its own and would not accept or acknowledge a throttle. The wiring is exactly the same on both bikes. Any help would be much appreciated. I would love to purchase a new motor for this ebike, However, if I do I will only have the same problem.
Electric Scooter2.jpg
Thanks

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Spaceangel
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

As for the motor being the problem ~ nope. Your bike most likely has a motor, controller, and some sort of throttle assembly. A signal from the throttle goes into controller, like 0 to 5 volt or a resistance control and tells controller to send a signal to motor via PWM or variable frequency drive to spin motor. So therefore it could be a leaky throttle control sending a false signal like maybe 2 volts or so or bad input on controller. I see you learned that a small signal from brakes turns off the controller.Being that it is a brushless motor it has to be Frequency drive and not PWM. It still works the same. It need a signal from throttle assembly to controller. What brand / model scooter controller?Your first choice of throttle is good and so controller but I think motor is good to leave alone. What type of throttle do you have and do you know any thing about throttle assemblies.
Can you get spare parts OK.

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Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Thanks for your fast reply. I have actually tried 2 old throttles that still work fine and 2 brand throttles on the ebike and still no throttle is being acknowledged. Even if there is no throttle connected to the controller the bike still takes of by itself. I have pulled 2 of the throttles apart and put them back together and noticed that there is a magnet on the inside, otherwise I am not so sure about throttle assembly other than the three wires that come out of the throttle and into the controller. If you get the wires mixed up the bike could take off by itself or the pedals start moving on their own, or even the wheel may go backwards instead of forwards.

It was an eziride bike with Luyuan motor and body parts. I have tried contacting Luyuan for parts and advice, unfortunately, they wont respond.

I also tried 2 old speed controllers that still work fine and another 2 new controllers, and the bike still takes off by itself. This is a mystery to me. It used to do this when I fist purchased the bike. So I purchased a brand new motor and controller for it about 1 and a half years ago, and the problem was still there, but then the floods came and covered both bikes in mud, so then I had to clean and rewire everything. So now I am back to square one I purchased another new motor and speed controller and still I have the same results. One of the bikes goes normally and the other takes off by itself.

Sometimes it is really difficult getting parts.

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Carol

Spaceangel
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

You said it still spins with out throttle connected?

Thanks for your fast reply. I have actually tried 2 old throttles that still
work fine and 2 brand throttles on the ebike and still no throttle is being
acknowledged. Even if there is no throttle connected to the controller the
bike still takes of by itself. I have pulled 2 of the throttles apart and put
them back together and noticed that there is a magnet on the inside,
otherwise I am not so sure about throttle assembly other than the three wires

What does the loose magnet got to? Magnets are usually used for sensing, positioning of devices. A lot of times epoxy doesn't hold magnets and they fall off. Therefore it can create a problem. It is hard to trouble shoot without hands on and or pictures. Maybe some one has experience with flood damage and water in a controller? I had water in my controller but it just went kaboom and blew the back off of it.
Also, you said,

The wiring is exactly the same on both bikes. Any help would be much appreciated. I would love to purchase a new motor for this ebike, However, if I do I will only have the same problem.

Before you do a new motor, try a Raylight tester first.Test your old motor - controller first.

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mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

The fact that the motor from ebike 1 turns when connected to ebike 2 shows that both motors are being affected by ebike 2's controller. hook ebike 2's motor to ebike 1 to test that the motor does not turn. all you did was show that ebike 2 has a problem since both motors are actuated.... ebike 2's controller is shorted. check all wires for shorts, frayed areas, and that they are connected properly to the screws of the controller. check that debris is not across any screws on controller.

go to the ebike manufacturers website for more info. call manufacturer for more info on your model. have model number handy when you call.

check http://www.goldenmotor.com/ for a controller and to learn about the components that make up an ebike system.
you could also have what is known as a magic controller that operates when the hall effect sensor is bad. reference the above link for magic controller. read up on how to diagnose bad hall effect sensor and if your ebike even has hall effect sensors. (replace and test may be the only way. But if they are inside a sealed hub motor it could e difficult but not impossible)

It's a journey but you'll know your ebike when your done.

get yourself an $8 volt ohm meter from amazon.com learn how to use it to check voltage and continuity of wires. shorts and open circuits. you'll probably need it eventually. .google has plenty of information.

the fact that ebike1's motor spins kinda rules out bad hall effect sensors and points to a bad controller on eike2. Hook ebike 2's motor to ebike 1, since everything on it is known to be working properly. if it works normally ebike 2 has a bad controller.

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mopedbrainy
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

there should be a three (3) prong plug out of controller .Try plugging it straight to one of them throttles .In order to skip the underneath connecting wiring. Or At least try it unplugged so you;re sure it's not due any faulty connection. Good luck

mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Sorry Carol I didnt see the other posts and replies before i posted my last post. working from a mobile.

you may have a hall effect sensor in the throttle. it is a magnetic device.
Its starting to sound like you have a magic controller that works when either the hall sensors or throttle are bad. So you dont get stuck in the boonies. So testing with other throttles that dont have the hall sensor in them or are not working properly will still cause motor to work.

And since there is a magnet in the throttle you have a hall sensor in the throttle and not in the motor.
So, both the hall sensor and the throttle must be working 100% and of the exact same kind or you get this result when you have a magic controller. Like the one mentioned on goldenmotor.com

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mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Sorry Carol I didnt see the other posts and replies before i posted my last post. working from a mobile.

you may have a hall effect sensor in the throttle. it is a magnetic device.
Its starting to sound like you have a magic controller that works when either the hall sensors or throttle are bad. So you dont get stuck in the boonies. So testing with other throttles that dont have the hall sensor in them or are not working properly will still cause motor to work.

And since there is a magnet in the throttle you have a hall sensor in the throttle and not in the motor.
So, both the hall sensor and the throttle must be working 100% and of the exact same kind or you get this result when you have a magic controller. Like the one mentioned on goldenmotor.com

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mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

believe it or not the brake switch could be causing a problem. also, and its the only thing you havent changed. so take the brake handle assy from ebike1 and put it on ebike2. it seems to me this happened to a friend and he was told by the factory to replace the brake assy and it worked. we all thought the factory was crazy but it all has something to do with the controller so that if anything breaks or shorts you can still get home.

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Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Hi,

I sent one of the speed controllers away to melbourne to have it tested, I knew how to test the wires to make sure their was an electricity flow, however, I didn't know how to test a controller to see if it was faulty. The people in melbourne explained to me that the controller had full power, by the time they sent the controller back, I plugged it back into the bike and all of the sudden the fuse in the battery box blew. I was assuming that this was because it was knocked around in the post. The fact still remains that the bike was still moving on its own with all four speed controllers, as well as the new throttles. I have 2 new throttles which is in the picture of throttle number 2 and all throttles work on the first bike, and all controllers work on the first bike as well.

The magnet in the throttle isn't loose at all I cleaned it out just incase there was dirt in the throttle causing the problem. In the picture the magnet looks like it is white but it is silver. Not sure if these pictures help at all.
Throttle Number 1.jpg
Throttle Number 1a.jpg
Throttle Number 2.jpg

Again your help or any thoughts are much appreciated.

Cheers

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Carol

Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

I Believe you about the brake assy anything is possible. I had a problem with the bike when I first purchased it, the power kept on cutting out, and I was told to check that the breaks aren't looping, so I checked it and tightened everything up and low and behold the power stopped cutting out. I was amazed.

Thanks Will Check the brakes right now.

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Carol

MEroller
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

The other ONLY possible cause now could be the wiring from the throttle connector up front down into the controller on your second bike. There must be some bridge in there that supplies the controller (no matter which one you mount) with more than 0V sensor out signal to get it going the way you describe. Because that connection cable is the only thing you did not switch around during your fault elimination process.
Is it possible to switch that cable between your two bikes without having to tear them apart completely? It would suffice to take out of scoot 2 and simply disconnect the cable of scoot 1, plug in the other cable along with a working throttle and see if THEN scooter 1's motor starts running on it's own. It could also be a broken phase in that cable so flexing it in different places could change thins too.

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mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

I notice that the throttle in the bottom picture is different than the one in the top picture. and i assume the middle picture is the top picture throttle disassembled.

we've also assumed that both ebikes are exactly alike and setup with the exact same controllers and throttles and motors. same model numbers and years do not mean that they are setup exactly the same.. one could have a brushless motor and the other a brushed motor. one could have a magic controller that is fully fault tolerant and the other does not have a magic controller. one could have the hall sensors in the motor and the other has the hall sensor in the throttle. there is a myriad of possibilities. but what it comes down to is: in order to use parts from ebike1 to test ebike2 both bikes must be exactly alike. all parts used and swapped must be exactly alike.
the brake assy must be exactly alike too. both must either have safety cutoff switches or not have safety cutoff switches inside for swap testing to work.
I suspect that ebike1 is not setup exactly the same as ebike2. or that the new parts are not exactly the same as the old parts. in other words: a throttle is not just a throttle. it must be the exact same throttle,controller,brake assy,and motor to do this type of testing.
so ,stop what you are doing and keep ebike1 intact and fully functional..

compare all parts. never assume that a company has sent you the right parts either.
good luck and let us know your results.

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Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Your right the throttle in the bottom picture is a picture of the 2 new throttles that I purchased they are the same. However, the first throttle is the original throttle which cuts all power to the ebike and both bikes have them. The new throttles are an annoying piece of ?????. I can't believe the area where you put the screw in to secure it on the handle bars has cracked, so when I start riding the first ebike the throttle starts sliding around, naturally, I have to stop the bike and I have started carrying screw driver to try and secure it again. I only purchased the 2 new throttles because I couldn't find one with a cut off switch. Although, don't get me wrong the 2 new throttles do work on the first bike they are just not very secure.

Both bikes are the same model number and the wiring is exactly the same. This has been checked through and through.

They are 2 motors purchased from 2 different retailers on the internet and they are supposed to be brushless motors 120 degree phase angle. One brushless motor I purchased from Melbourne at a place called Chituma and the Other I purchased on the internet from Hongkong.. The motor I purchased from Hongkong is on the second bike. It used to be on the first bike and was really fast would do 40-50Kms an hour on the flat road. When I put that motor on the second bike, it slowed right down, the speed dropped down to 25-30kms an hour.

The Speed controllers that I normally use is the black one, I have 2 of these for each bike, although, I sent one of them away to test if it was faulty or not and by the time it got back to me it blew the fuse in the battery box. So I am minus one black controller now and trying to use the other 2.
Speed Controller 1.jpg
Speed Controller 3.jpg
Speed Controller 4.jpg

Late yesterday afternoon, I connected the wires coming out of the hub/motor on the second bike to the wiring on the first bike and the motor started when I used the throttle. The motor did not take off by itself. So maybe I need to change a few wires.

All help is appreciated here.

Cheers

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mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Well, this is getting thrilling now!
ok we now know both motors are the same type.brushless.
and we'll assume they are both rated at 36volts.
now, because the motor in bike2 goes faster when it was installed in bike1 we must assume that bike1 has more voltage getting to the controller or motor than bike2.
now why? is the question.
bike1 either has more 12v batteries connected in series than bike2 or bike2 has a defective battery or wiring that is delivering less voltage to the controller.
or bike2 has a 48v controller working on a 36v battery pack.
so now we need to measure the voltages of both battery packs to see that they are equal.

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mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

keep in mind that model numbers are meaningless except for exterior looks.
dealers often sell pairs of bikes together that are not the same inside in order to fit into a budget. often they will ask the man, you dont mind pedaling a little bit do you while asking his wife you dont want to pedal at all right?
so you end up with one PAS type for the man and a TAG type bike for the lady. range will vary between the two.
PAS i like to call pedal and suffer. while TAG i call twist and go. one has a brushed motor and the other is brushless. the motors even look exactly the same. same casing numbers even. just the innards are different.
everything except a little white paper tag on the wires. which can come off after some riding.

or they will ask how far do you want to go?
the man will get a 36v (3x12v batteries) bike because he is big and the lady gets a 24v (2x12v batteries) because she is lighter. and they may go about the same range but not exactly. both will be TAG or PAS.
But they both have the same model number.

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Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Thanks for that response. (Interesting)

Unfortunately, due to the floods I went through last year I had no choice but to get new batteries. Both bikes had a set of batteries in the platform of the bikes as well as a set of batteries under the seat of both bikes. I had 5 sets of batteries in their boxes and 1 set to spare, and the volunteers that were helping me clean up after being flooded out of house and home threw everything I owned in the garbage on the side of the footpath that includes the bikes and batteries and battery boxes, mowers, furniture, not to mention my reading glasses etc. It took six months to find someone who could sell a battery box for the platform of the bike.

Both bikes have 2 different sets of batteries. The first set of batteries I purchased are in the first bike and I purchased them from Melbourne.
The second set of batteries I purchased were from Sydney and is in the 2nd bike. The man I purchased the 2nd set of batteries from mentioned that I can lay these batteries on their side should I find a battery box for under the seat. Naturally, I haven't found any battery cases for under the seat. I have set up both sets of batteries to make 48 volts, 4 batteries per box, each battery 12volts by 12ah (positive to negative).

I will check the volts in the 2nd set of batteries, if it is just one battery that isn't pushing the volts then I still have one spare battery to spare. I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers

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Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

I tested all 4 batteries for the 2nd bike and the volts seem to fluctuate between 12.8 and 12.9volts.

I took out the throttle wires from underneath the 2nd bike and connected them to the 1st bike and the wires seem to be working as normal. I disconnected the throttle wires from the first bike and went to connect them to the 2nd bike and noticed that the actual pin inside the plug that was connected to the black wire was broken and bent out of shape. So I replaced the pin for the black wire on the throttle and connected it to the speed controller on the second bike. I can't believe it, the bike no longer takes off by itself.

Which still raises a question, on several occassions through my trial and error with this problem, I had disconnected the throttle from the controller and the bike would take off by itself. Why would the bike take off by itself when the throttle was not connected at all. Strange.

I would really like to thank everyone for you time and effort.

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Carol

MEroller
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Great news, Carol!!! :-) A broken pin.
So the question is: What do your controllers do when they are switched on, but NO throttle is plugged in to it? Because a broken pin means no usable throttle signal, so it was as if no throttle had been plugged in at all. Maybe those controller then apply a certain output power to the motor? It would certainly not be a sign of good nor safely engineered fault responses...

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mopedbrainy
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

Hopefully this would not answer the question . Beware of chewed on answers ! but may allow you to draw your own conclusions . THE TEST IS: If you unplug the throttle on any perfectly working one (bike) and then turn the bike on and afterwards you plug the the throttle while the bike is turned on ; the moment it is plugged back on the bike would start on its own. ...... A faulty connection causes it because of the magnet . Do not look for voltage on the throttle , it just carry signal... Ok i'm refraining to chew on it any longer . Good luck

mobilemike4
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

hi carolg
glad you found the broken pin and resolved the issue of the motor running by itself.
you have a fault tolerant controller that runs the motor when one of the controls is broken,(throttle) so you dont get stranded.

hope your key is in a handy spot in case the bike goes to full throttle if the brake cutoff switch is broken.

i've had this happen.practice cutting off bike by key.

while its up on kickstand with back wheel off the ground you can test controller to see if motor is engaged when brake wires are disconnected. if so you may need to turn bike off by key while riding someday if throttle breaks or brakes break.

does bike 2 go as fast as bike 1 now?

if not check total voltage of battery pack. should be 12.6 x 4 whenfully charged and rested for 2-3 hours after

charging.
cheers

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Carolg
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Re: Advise Wanted for 500Watt Electric Brushless Ebike/Scooter

I never would have thought that it is just a broken pin. I even tested the wires using that pin, I guess moving the wires or picking the wires up may have been the reason for electricity flow when using the multimedia and when I put the wires back down no electricity flow (Very Deceptive). I thought the answer to the problem was going to be something really complex that I could never fix myself.

Unfortunately, bike 2 doesn't go as fast as bike one, but it is still able. The wires are about 30cm longer on the 2nd bike compared to the first bike, could that cause the bike to go slower?

Although, I did have a new discovery, I learned that the black wire on the throttle gives control to the throttle or stops the bike from taking off by itself. If you just connect the green and red throttle wire, the motor takes off by itself. I always imagined that if one of those wires weren't connected, it wouldn't go at all. This has all been a wonderful learning curve for me. Lets not forget the frustration where I started pulling my hair out.

Unfortunately, both throttles that have the cut off switch are not working any more, I Purchased some CRC electronic cleaning spray and sprayed both throttles with the cut off switch and neither of the throttles are working any more. Just wondering why that happened (strange). The other throttles do work, however, my preference is with that cut off switch. Does anyone know where I can get a throttle with a cut off switch.

Thanks

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Carol

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