XM-3000 Dead

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LeftieBiker
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I had the scooter out for errands this evening, and had parked in one of those parking spaces that is up against a building, so you have to back out to leave. I believe that I may have opened the throttle while still rolling slowly backwards, possibly while in High power mode. The scooter jerked forward slightly, then died. I lowered and raised the sidestand several times, to no avail. The power meter still works. The motor seems completely dead - no humming, jerking, etc. The scooter is now harder to roll than usual, even with power off, and especially backwards. Did this simple, minor mistake fry the hub motor? Any other ideas?

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LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

Your response is underwhelming. Let me try being specific. Does anyone know the location of the main drive fuse on the 2008 XM3000? Would the battery gauge still work if that fuse had blown? All the accessories, plus the battery gauge, still work. It's "only" the motor that appears dead.

pcarlson1979
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

Hi Leftie,

I don't have a XM-3000 scooter but I once fried a motor on an ebike in a similar fasion. In my infinite wisdom, programmed my 4000w controller to allow 1500w into my 500w hub motor. It worked great for about 200 meters. I rode it out to the road and stopped at the traffic lights (steep hill), when I could cross the road it gave about 1/2 a second of power then dead. I rode the bicycle back home manually and it felt like I had a hand brake on?! But when I pulled the battery connector out it was still the same.

Turned out I blew a capacitor and ALL 12 FET's in the speed controller and fried the motor windings closest to where the wires exit the hub motor and they puffed up and were pushing agaisnt the hub motor casing causing the friction. I learnt, don't pump 1500w into a 500w motor.

But as for your big scooter, you shouldn't be able to kill a motor like that? Because a 3000w motor CAN take 3000w! Most likley a wire has come loose inside that hub motor. Can you measure voltage going into the motor? Are the hall sensors still working (switching between 0-5v)?

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

Zee Electric warns ZEV owners not to apply power while stopped on a hill in order to hold position, saying that this will burn out the motor. I didn't think what I did could fry a motor either, but this was the first time I've done it with the power set to High (I usually start off in Low and the "shift" to High while moving), and I fear that applying substantial power to a motor already turning in reverse might cause more damage than expected. I'm *hoping* it's a blown fuse, but that wouldn't explain the extra rolling resistance, while a blown motor probably would... I'm not sure if I can get a voltage reading short of pushing a probe through the wire insulation, but I'll try it if necessary.

This was all so avoidable. The Redbox DVD rental machine I usually use was offline, so I reserved a movie from home on a different one, located in downtown instead of the outskirts. My housemate didn't pick it up as asked, so I rode over into town in Rush Hour traffic, angry. Riding usually calms me down, but I got behind two Harleys and a diesel truck, and between the fumes, the noise and the traffic I was still mad when I picked up the movie and left.

My area is *infested* with Harleys, most of them running with too-loud aftermarket exhausts, and many of them running too rich as well. It's really spoiling motorcycling for everyone except A-holes and D-bags. EVs are rare (except for a few golfcart-like GEMs, mostly used in the parks), but the more pollution something produces, the more popular it is. I've learned a valuable lesson to apply to the ZEV, but the little XM was more more fun to ride errands on. If I can't fix it I'll miss it. The ZEV is too heavy and tall to enjoyably run errands on, unfortunately.

MEroller
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

This happens irregularly to me as well, rolling slightly backwards on gradients before I can apply enough power to get the bike moving forward. Not sweat whatsoever. However, if your motor or controller had already suffered thermally at some point, and/or a jerky BLDC-Type controller had already torn loose a few windings in the motor, then a rather small issue can suffice to short out one phase to the other, or blow some MOSFET's in the controller causing such a short. It would be interesting to see if the motor still has the high resistance when the three phases are disconnected from the controller. If yes, and if you can feel a ripple in the friction, then most likely a motor phase or two are shorted out, most likely somewhere in the area of the axle. If the friction feels rather smooth, you may have melted some wire insulation which then clogged a bearing.
However, if the motor turns freely when disconnected from the controller, then the controller is most probably at fault.

Good luck for your trouble shooting!

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

Wouldn't turning the key off disconnect the controller from power, and thus stop any off-phase resistance? Or are you saying that the motor is producing the power to produce the 'stiction' just by being connected, with no external power? I remember the resistance as being smooth rather than jerky. Wouldn't losing one phase coil still have the motor jerking, humming, or something other then acting completely dead with the key on?

As for previous stress, there is that: I carried an adult passenger about 1.5 miles to a concert and back a couple of times this Summer, exceeding the load limit by about 50lbs. Aside from the motor being a bit louder a few times, there was no sign of excess heat, and no odd smells from the hub. It was fine for a month after that...

MEroller
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

If motor phases are shorted or even some MOSFETS in the controller busted, thus also potentially creating such a short, then indeed the induced voltage by pushing the bike, even with key off, would create heaps of resistance to turning the wheel. But you are right in that you would feel a "ripple" in the resistance, as the magnets alternately pass a pole and then a gap.

As your bike appears to be "dead" propulsionwise I strongly assume a fried controller. As I said, see what happens when you disconnect the three motor phases from the controller and then turn the motor, naturally making sure the three phase ends do not meet... If it turns freely again the motor is probably o.k.

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

Man, I'm getting old and stupid. I had assumed, for some reason, that the main breaker would kill the accessories as well, and maybe it does in an XM with OEM wiring, but mine was rewired by an amateur, and it doesn't. The breaker was tripped. When I flipped it back, with the key off, it arced and tripped again. After that I could turn it back on, but I'm not sure how much this narrows the problem down, except it seems that *something* had shorted. I'll look into that further next week.

I haven't mentioned that I have what is probably a good spare controller, and almost definitely a bad spare motor/wheel/tire - a magnet apparently detached in shipping. I got them as warranty replacements from X-Treme, with the help of the dealer I bought the scooter from on Ebay. So if the controller is fried I may be able to splice in the original one and hope it works. If the motor is bad, and I can't find a replacement, I supposed I could try to reattach the magnet in the original motor. Does anyone know if that's a plug on the controller for the wiring, or if all the wires are just running through a grommet?

MEroller
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

Double Post.. THE EDIT BUTTON IS BACK :-) At least this time....

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

MEroller
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

The circuit breaker should sit between battery plus and the controller, and thus has nothing to do with the DC/DC-converter and the accessories it drives. That has its own fuse coming from the key switch (in my ride it is in the red box vissible in the lower right corner of the following pic).
In my ride that big cicrcuit breaker looks like this (this time the size of the wires going in and out of it are irrelevant :-):

The reason for the arcing and tripping when you turned it on is most likely not a short in the controller, but the big current surge while the giant capacitors in the controller input recharge. Next time before you turn on the circuit breaker after having it off for a while it is advisable to precharge those capactitors with a 110/220V light bulb that you temporarily connect to in- and output of the circuit breaker. This will fill the caps more gently thanks to the resistance on the light bulb, and you will know when the precharge is done thanks to the light blulb that will no longer glow. The Vectrix Forum here mentions this procedure many times, and it directly applies to our simpler rides too :-) After that the circuit braker can be easily switched on without any arcing or tripping.
But all in all that curciut breaker seems to have served it's purpose and kept a few things from melting and burning, as further down the line some havoc must have occurred nevertheless.

As I do not know what kind of controller is in your bike I don't know the type of connections it has. You should be able to check this on your spare controller though, if it is the same type?

__________________

My (former...) ride: E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables, now wrecked

LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

It should be identical, but IIRC, both the ZEV and the XM have the wires running in through something that *looks* like a plug, but won't budge. The one on the ZEV may actually *be* a plug and socket - I had no reason at the time to actually unplug it. The guy I hired to put in the XM's new motor and controller spliced the wires, though, so he assumed it wasn't a plug. I don't have full confidence in his judgement, however, as he made the taillight bulb literally explode because he couldn't seem to wait for me to find my multimeter before he started connecting the lights. I'll have to dig up the first controller and look at the connections.

Good explanation of the arcing. I've seen the lightbulb mentioned in Vectrix topics, but assumed it was done because of a specific failing of that bike's charger. The ZEV has a similar breaker, and while it hasn't arced, I may not turn it off this Winter. I never turned the XM's breaker off because it has a very low parasitic drain even with it on.

LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

I edited this post and it saved it as a new one.

LeftieBiker
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Re: XM-3000 Dead

I took a quick look this evening, and the controller has what definitely *looks* like two plugs for the wiring harness connections. Looks like a screw-on ring cap holding in a plug for each. So, this week I'll try to get a plug or two out so I can measure what's going to the hub, if anything. If nothing I'll swap controllers. If there is current going to the hub I'll assume it's the hubmotor. Can anyone think of anything I may be missing? I smelled nothing like burnt wiring, and I have an extra-keen sense of smell (one reason I hate Harleys and diesels). Anyone know of a source for a new or used hub/rim/tire or even just hub/rim?

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