Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really depends on how you define failure, right?

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reikiman's picture
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Last night in the first U.S. Presidential debate of the campaign season, Romney tried to tarnish Obama's green technology strategy with the Solyndra taint. He was criticizing the investments in green energy, while calling for more investments in fossil fuel energy, then named off a set of companies he called Losers. At the head of this list was Solyndra.

The Republicans have taken to tying various countries with Solyndra as if they're trying to use that one corporate failure to taint all the other green technology green energy companies the same way.

I wrote up a news article going over the success of three of the companies he named: Ener1, Fisker, Tesla -- Romney tries to Solyndraize Tesla Motors, calling it a 'loser'

Summary ..

Ener1: A battery maker that received stimulus money to build battery plants in Indiana, and had Think as their primary customer. In mid-2011 Think went into bankruptcy. Ener1 was a major shareholder in Think. Obviously that threw kink into Ener1's finances, and that company went into a planned bankruptcy in January. Both companies have since reemereged from bankruptcy. Is Ener1 a failure? It is still selling products to customers ...

Fisker: They've been having a rough year with quality problems and their Dept of Energy loans getting frozen because they missed business development targets. But the company has delivered well over 1000 cars to paying customers. And the company has been raising private funding to replace the funding frozen by the Dept of Energy. That means the company should be able to reboot the plans to go into manufacturing of the cars meant to follow the Karma. Failure? Jury is still out, but they're heading in a positive direction.

Tesla: I think they're firing on all cylinders, and meeting all kinds of ambitious business development goals. They got the Model S into production pretty much on time. They got the second generation Toyota RAV4 EV into production on time. They've bought a large factory, and got it into production, and have plenty of room to expand manufacturing projects over time. The CEO claimed yesterday that they'll be cash flow positive by December 2012. (see Elon Musk clarifies financing round, says Tesla to be cash flow positive by December 2012) In sort.. Failure? Uh, no. Quite the opposite.

However one piece of feedback I've received so far is that a lot depends on how you define failure.

None of these companies are profitable, and therefore are not self standing companies but are dependent on investors. Hence each have failed to become a stable company. I counter that each are start-up companies, and that this is typical pattern for a startup company to spend its first years raising capital to stay in business long enough to get enough sales to become stable.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Oh man I just want to head-butt Romney. What a F*&^%$ IDIOT!!

And I live in Australia!

Oi, Dumb SH*t, it's called FOSSIL FUEL for a reason!! Once it's gone, it's gone for another 100 million years AFTER we destroy the earth!

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Unfortunately, when it comes to support of the fossil-fuel status quo, and completely ignoring the threat of AGW, Obama is no better. The US Democratic Party is waaay to the right of even your compromised Gillard-led Labour Party. Heck, they are even to the left of the Liberals.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Solyndra was a failed concept before Obama even approved it. The Bush administration had looked at the idea and decided that Chinese solar companies were already making a product of equal quality at a far lower price. So on this one it's 100% valid to be critical... it was simply a dumb idea.

Tesla though, is still an unknown. The guy that is the CEO actually owns another successful solar company and also makes "free market" space delivery vehicles. From what I can tell he's very intelligent and I'd guess he will be successful in the long run.

Some green ideas are good and some are bad.

In general the ones that are driven by government think tanks tend to rely on subsidies and they fail once the money stops "trickling down" to use the Romney phrase.

The successful ones will always watch the botton line to make sure they are profitable.

Tesla is more like a winner than a loser.

Romney jumped to the wrong conclusion on this unknown... (but it's still unknown)

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Full disclosure here... I own some A123 20A cells myself.

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A123 is another company that I'd place in the "loser" category.

They were on the brink of bankruptcy and then some Chinese company swooped in and bought it for pennies on the dollar. This means that all the technology and investment money that the US Government pumped into the company ended up in Chinese hands.

A123 is a "loser" for the US, but a "win" for China.

----------------------

Romney seems to have stopped co-mingling Tesla in with the "other" losers. This might mean his fact checkers realized it was a mistake.

The theme of Green investments as "losers" is accurate in most cases, but not all cases.

Seems that even with a month of debate prep Romney still made an error.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

In the case of A123 Systems - it's not as clear-cut as "Wanxiang swooped in and bought them up." I haven't checked recently, but the agreement they announced in August was not a straight buy-out but depended on A123 Systems cleaning up their business a bit, and depended on government approvals, and depended on shareholder approvals. There are a lot of "if's" in which Wanxiang might not end up owning A123 Systems.

I wrote up the details here:- http://www.torquenews.com/1075/its-wanxiang-or-bankruptcy-a123-systems-companies-sign-agreement

The source documents are available in the SEC's EDGAR system (financial reporting documents)

Additionally, A123 made several expensive mistakes that led to expensive recalls. Has nothing to do with the quality of the product, but the manufacturing quality and the failure to catch manufacturing mistakes in-house.

As for: The theme of Green investments as "losers" is accurate in most cases, but not all cases.

There are articles out in the news currently about the proportion of government loans that went to companies that failed. Based on those articles I wrote this: The loan program Romney named during the debate provided $16.1 billion in loan guarantees, and as of May had a default rate of about 1.7 percent, according to congressional testimony.

With a 1.7% default rate, how can you say "accurate in most cases"? 1.7% is nowhere near what we'd call "most".

BTW, Fisker Automotive responded to Romney's attack ... http://www.torquenews.com/1075/fisker-rejects-romneys-loser-tag-will-his-attack-backfire-romney

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

You have to be very careful these days because now the studies themselves are biased. You can get situations where depending on the bias something can be interpreted as a success or failure.

An example...

Recently the consumer spending went up suddenly by 0.5% and many people cheered:

"The economy is improving !"

...but later people realized that the jump was almost all because of a sudden rise in gas prices.

(not a good thing)

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1.7% just sounds wrong. Possibly they created very narrow criteria in order to arrive at that number, but you have to admit that the long line of failed Green companies is hard to miss.

Even a 17% failure rate would be more realistic (I might swallow) but my intuitive guess is more like 50%. You would have to dig deep into the details of the study to see if they were making correct assumptions or not.

I'm trusting fewer and fewer people's information lately because misinformation seems to be growing at a very rapid rate, probably because of the internet to some degree. (less editorial integrity)

-----------------------

I got into the EV (ebike) hobby in 2006 before it was a political "football" so to me I just think it's an interesting path to go in. It's possible with a Romney win that EV's will have a better future because then it will be less political. EV's should prove themselves to be economical without government assistance. (my feeling about it)

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

safe wrote:

1.7% just sounds wrong. Possibly they created very narrow criteria in order to arrive at that number, but you have to admit that the long line of failed Green companies is hard to miss.

Even a 17% failure rate would be more realistic (I might swallow) but my intuitive guess is more like 50%. You would have to dig deep into the details of the study to see if they were making correct assumptions or not.

I'm trusting fewer and fewer people's information lately because misinformation seems to be growing at a very rapid rate, probably because of the internet to some degree. (less editorial integrity)

Uh.. the "long line of failed Green Companies" line of thinking probably has more to do with Republican propoganda than anything. The Republicans have, for the entirety of the Obama Presidency, been twisting things to make everything Obama does to appear the worst they could possibly be. Even when Obama has taken their own proposals, the Republicans then turned on their own proposals because Obama was now for the proposals. In terms of the green jobs green economy strategy, the Republicans have been reviling and vilifying every form of green anything just to make Obama look bad.

You talk about misinformation - and the primary culprit is the Republicans and right-wingers who have shown a willingness to lie about anything and everything ... There is nothing new to this pattern. The Bush Presidency was also lie after lie after lie after lie after lie.

You yourself admit to not knowing factually the rate of failure in the Dept of Energy loan/grant program. This means you yourself are participating in misinformation by suggesting a 50% failure rate that you have no proof of. Especially when there is rampant misinformation going on.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

None of us really know what's going on... that we can all agree.

-----------------

Full disclosure... my first job was in accounting for a mortgage collateral bank and in that job I had to dig into the details to discover improper activity going on. Ultimately I discovered over $1 million in fraud.

Later, I was ivolved in the investigation of "suspicious activity" on the natural gas pipeline from Canada going into the US and we uncovered all kinds of scams taking place. This was ultimately where Enron was making their profits.

So I kind of know how easy it is for those with a vested interest to make things appear "okay" when in reality they are far from it.

As for Bush...

It was clear to me that in 2004 the housing bubble was ready to pop. Bush claimed credit for the "Ownership Society" in order to get re-elected but immediated switched sides in 2005 and started to push legislation to crack down on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So they all do it.

You just kind of have to go with the trendlines and rely on a lot of data points during an election season. If one data point comes out that seems "too good to be true" you have to pause and wonder what it's really saying.

------------------------

The larger issue is that the entire world economy is slowing. Every data point suggests that the coming years are going to be difficult. Much of this is because pretty much everyone has allowed their debt situation to get out of control and in my book this is the next "bubble".

Just as in 2004 any intelligent person knew housing was going to pop, today we know that all this pumping of money into the worlds currencies is going to have a bad ending.

We are at the end of this phase in the cycle (as I see it) and the Federal Reserve can only buy time with QE3 because ultimately the only way out is to get growth back.

Anyway... too long to get too deep, but the future is going to be harder than the present, so if a Green company can survive on it's own without government dollars I say "great", but the future can't afford it otherwise.

.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Here's a thought...

How about if we actually dig into the details of those loans.

We would start by finding out EXACTLY which companies are involved.

It's very possible that as we dig we will discover what assumptions were made and probably how things might have been represented.

Some of the more obvious accounting tricks include:

Not "recognizing" a loss. Often a loss is deferred until it's convenient to acknowledge it.

Co-mingling one entity with another so that losses get buried in the details.

...basically the details will tell the story for us.

Also, if the list doesn't include the "losers" then they aren't included in the 1.7% figure.

"Creative Accounting" is more widespread than you might think and it's generally worse as any organization gets larger. Government (the largest) tends to get the most creative.

...because they aren't really the "Historical Documents". ;)

.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

No quick response, which means you've either lost interest or are researching...

Here's something. Let's go back to the part of the debate where this topic was brought up. Romney said something to the effect:

"Oil companies received $2.5 Billion in subsidies. Green companies received $90 Billion in subsidies. That's close to being fifty years worth of subsidies in a relative sense."

...first of all it's not exactly fifty times, but 36 times does not flow off the tongue as easily. (poetic license)

But beyond that we get a rather dramatic difference between $90 Billion and the $1.6 Billion program you have been focusing on. This seems to be a case where Romney is talking about the "overall" spending and the democratic defensive spin is focusing on an isolated success.

This might explain it...

If Solyndra was included in the $1.6 Billion program it's half billion loss would produce:

$0.5 Billion (loss) / $1.6 Billion program = 31% failure rate.

These discussions often revolve around how the questions are framed.

.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Just to prove I'm human too... it appears I got a number wrong in this discussion.

Romney said $90 Billion.

I thought you referred to a $1.6 Billion dollar program.

In fact you referred to a $16.1 Billion dollar program.

Solyndra was a $0.5 Billion dollar loss.

So we get:

$0.5 Billion / $16.1 Billion = 3.1% failure rate. (just accounting for Solyndra)

------------------

But I know there are a lot more losses than that.

Anyway... 1.7% failure rate isn't plausible and we might not know the full extent of the losses until after the election. This is normally how things work where numbers get "deferred" until they can be "realized" without significant political consequences.

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The day after the debates Romney stopped usung Tesla as an example of failure.

So the core premise of the thread is correct, Romney was in error about Tesla, but he was not entirely wrong either. It always comes down to the details in the end... the "bottom line" in accounting can often be the least truthful because it hides all the details.

.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Galaxy Quest - One of my favorites

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Yeah, it's really funny. You have to be old enough to have been a fan of the original Star Trek because a lot of the humor relates to it. Twenty somethings might not get all the jokes.

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Back to Tesla...

Apparently there is some "restructuring" of their half billion dollar loan which in effect delays payments until after the election. This means that things will look great for a while.

On the negative side sales are less than hoped for (so they say on the news anyway... will need fact checking on that) so it's not too rosy.

Tesla will NOT be a successful talking point for Romney for the election, but beyond the election the outcome is still not looking great yet.

"Survival mode" is probably the right description, but all new businesses are like that.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

bzzt ... there was naysayers overhyping some things Tesla said in filings ..

Another view is what Elon Musk posted to explain matters:- http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/update-elon-musk

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Consistent with those principles, we described a relatively pessimistic scenario for Tesla, which was incorrectly interpreted by some to be what we thought was the most likely scenario.

Sounds like Apple. They would give these horrific pre-announcements and then when the real data came out the results were fantastic.

Better to claim you are doing poorly and then turn out well than to claim everything is perfect and disappoint.

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It does explain why negative headlines got out... they did post it.

My feeling is that Tesla is more likely a winner than loser, but only time will tell.

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This also suggests some "independence" from the Obama administration because if Tesla was totally "in the tank" with Obama they would never have posted negative scenarios publically.

Tesla is not a "tool" for the left. (it's a real business, with a real CEO)

.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

they would never have posted negative scenarios publically

How many SEC filings have you read ???

I have read quite a few. There is a requirement in law to protect shareholders that businesses must disclose risk factors so that investors can make informed decisions.

The quarterly and yearly filings as well as prospectus's are all legally required documents with content required that is meant to inform investors and others.

A company like Tesla obviously has a lot of risks, and they would be foolhardy to not disclose all possible risks. It's in part to avoid possible future shareholder lawsuits. From time to time shareholders launch lawsuits based on stock losses where the claim is that the company did not disclose X or Y or Z ..

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Reading actual SEC filings?

Yeah, that's a little too much into the weeds for me these days.

Back in the dot.com era (which was the last time I was deeply into this sort of thing) companies would never post negative data because it could harm the stock price... which was all people really cared about.

These days I'd imagine there is a lot more CYA activity, so publishing negative data is more likely.

Anyway... I think we have the answer... Tesla published a very negative possible scenario and the Romney campaign simply took it at face value.

--------

Again, I personally think Tesla has a good chance of success, but the point of the thread was to discover "why" Romney interpreted Tesla as a loser. We know now... Tesla said it themselves. ;)

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Without offending anyone : In my humble opinion(IMHO)any car that uses li-ion will not go far or be very successful over time as the Li-ion batteries are too "fragile" and can't take the beating like the NIMH "large format" (NIMH LF) battery can (texaco bought the patent from GM and then turned production of LF batteries to a trickle just enough production to creat the illusion of production, heck we called the only two NIMH LF factories in america and couldn't find any sales dept. They also raised the prices about 20-30 x higher to keep people away from them and go Bush on the Sill exorbitatnt dangerous H car to sidetrack the electrics.
FYI: 1998 Toyota Rav4 EV's are still on the road today with ORIGINAL NIMH batteries still going strong.
Glad to hear 2nd gen rav4 is doing well

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

FYI: Rumors are that Plug in Prius hybrids (they use Nimh stacked packs) sold overseas have an electric only" button that allows the user to use only electric and no gas at all until battery drains too far and they have to switch over, but by adding more batteries (calif co does this for you at a price (" $3500"? ) you can have a plug in prius with a decent range in the USA too. Question is why isn't toyota allowed to sell that version already set up (with the xtra batteries in usa already? )

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Texaco's hostage NImh battery patent runs out in 2014.. so just wait and then buy an electric or hybrid with nimh Large format (nimh LF) already installed and really start saving , they can charge to 80% in 15 minutes and toyota says they show no degradation if operated between 40 and 80%, (don't over drain and don't over charge that range) and so they might even last 20 or perhaps even more years.
FYI: someone told me he went to an EV li-ion oriented seminar and they told him that li-ion can't be drained below 85% ? is that true?

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

If the li-ion can' be drained below 85% it seems like that would very much limit the range, or would it?

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

@inventpeace: How can you get you more charge out of a given battery? From just 20 to 80% discharge from 100 to 85% discharge? I'll let you do the math on that one ;-)
If a LiFePO4 battery is handled as carfeully as Toyota handles their NiMh batteries you will be likely to have a similar lifespan, plus at far more power per weight than with NiMh.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

From just 20 to 80% discharge from 100 to 85% discharge? " I think you misunderstood.. the guy who went to the seminar said not to discharge below 85% (meaning you can use only 15% of the charge) which would limit range (miles) severely. As for LiFePo (its lithium based)... i would be very leery of it.. one guy from texas ( a former dallas cowboy starting player, who switched to technical stuff once cut from team after 6 good years), came here and saw our demos of our circuit and was very impressed, but he did say that LiFePo has problems, they swell and become damages (as do some models of other batteries including nimh which is why toyota bolts them together under torque so they don't expand/swell); he went on to say the owner of his co bought a boxcar full ($250k ) and they were having lots of problems since they said eacy and every module of LiFePo had to be separately managed/charged etc... lots of wires and logistics problems... not happy people.
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION : Lithium anything "rechargeable" is suspect, as they just can't seem to stand much of a discharge vs NIMH (which again INHO is why Texaco bought the patent for that nimh large format battery. ) All major hybrids except flaging "volt" use NIMH... for a reason, they CAN take the beating that electric cars deal out. Hope I'm not offending anyone... data is our best friend, but Oil co's are good a giving out misleading data to keep the issues confused: IE EV1 worked so good they felt they had to not only recall, but crush and then chip into itty bitty pieces almost every one of them.. since then they keep people focused on lesser technologies which IMHO are not going to last in the market places (except prius plug in models with electric only switch)... like the super $$$ H car which is not only super dangerous but costs a fortune and could only go 50miles.
Wait till Nimh patent for Large format versions runs out in 2014.. then you will see the real deal they hid from us all these last 14 years, bankrupting the world and making 1000 species per year extinct forever.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

From just 20 to 80% discharge from 100 to 85% discharge? " I think you misunderstood.. the guy who went to the seminar said not to discharge below 85% (meaning you can use only 15% of the charge) which would limit range (miles) severely. As for LiFePo (its lithium based)... i would be very leery of it.. one guy from texas ( a former dallas cowboy starting player, who switched to technical stuff once cut from team after 6 good years), came here and saw our demos of our circuit and was very impressed, but he did say that LiFePo has problems, they swell and become damages (as do some models of other batteries including nimh which is why toyota bolts them together under torque so they don't expand/swell); he went on to say the owner of his co bought a boxcar full ($250k ) and they were having lots of problems since they said eacy and every module of LiFePo had to be separately managed/charged etc... lots of wires and logistics problems... not happy people.
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION : Lithium anything "rechargeable" is suspect, as they just can't seem to stand much of a discharge vs NIMH (which again INHO is why Texaco bought the patent for that nimh large format battery. ) All major hybrids except flaging "volt" use NIMH... for a reason, they CAN take the beating that electric cars deal out. Hope I'm not offending anyone... data is our best friend, but Oil co's are good a giving out misleading data to keep the issues confused: IE EV1 worked so good they felt they had to not only recall, but crush and then chip into itty bitty pieces almost every one of them.. since then they keep people focused on lesser technologies which IMHO are not going to last in the market places (except prius plug in models with electric only switch)... like the super $$$ H car which is not only super dangerous but costs a fortune and could only go 50miles.
Wait till Nimh patent for Large format versions runs out in 2014.. then you will see the real deal they hid from us all these last 14 years, bankrupting the world and making 1000 species per year extinct forever.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

My last ebike used NiCads and they were absolutely the most durable and idiot proof batteries I've ever used.

The problem is power to weight ratio... Nickel is not light weight.

Without light weight batteries you can't get much range (I started with lead acid before the NiCads) and so if you want practical long range EV's you need to see where other chemistries take you.

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Tesla uses an "agnostic" approach to batteries. They are presently using what are basically flashlight batteries with built in safety features in each cell. Using mass production it seems to produce a good result without excessive cost.

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What is needed is more research.

The problem seems to be that government has gotten too deep into subsidizing the manufacturing side and not focused on the research side. This is why so many subsidized green companies are failing.

Over the long run any business must prove itself in the "real world". Government has the luxury of not having to live in the "real world" so historically their decision making process produces poor results.

.

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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

I heard a rumor that M.I.T. was going to show the world how to use li-ion flashlight size batteries all soldered together in "series" to run a car from NY to Calif, they got as far as Illinois and gave up on the project. In my humble opinion, LI anything just can't take the beating. Look at the facts Re: nimh and others:
1. Texaco did indeed buy the battery patent for the NIMH and won't let anyone new make the large format (LF) type that is best for electric cars. THATS BIG !!! why didn't they buy Li-ion patent or LiFePo patents? (good question).
2. Virtually every major hybrid uses nimh, albeit stacked smaller version (1st Honda insight use over 600 nimh D cells soldered together in series, thats how bad they wanted NIMH.) Only Chevy VOLT uses li-ion and results are not impressive really, sales are lagging. etc
3. Our personal at home tests with Nimh vs Li-ion say same with small cordless phone batteries. Once li-ion goes too low , its shot... we drained a Nimh samll cell and then tied the + - together with a wire overnight in 2006, we are still using it today. Li-ion never came back at all... deader than a doornail..
4. Another person out west verified #3 results indepedently and got same results (BUT you have to charge the nimh twice for some strange reason... it charges up, then lasts 10 minutes, so we thought it too was shot, but put it back on the charger anyway and its lasted normal talk time for since 2006 (or 12+ years).
5

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MEroller's picture
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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Oh my golly, what are you up to with your batteries, draining them down to reversal and even shorting them???? That is like taking a light bulb, smashing it on the floor and then complaining it will no longer work :-)
Come on, if you want something to last a while, you need to handle it with the appropriate care. And some things (and folks) require more care than others, just as some things will last longer than others. And you will also have more benefit from some things than from others.

NiMH is definetly NOT the end of battery development, there is not enough potential (electrical potential that is) in Nickel-based battery chemistry for it to keep up with the high potential of Lithium-based chemistries. But there still is lot of research and development necessary to get Lithium-based batteries to the point of being able to survive the kind of abuse you seem to like throwing at your batteries...

I take care of mine, and a BMS is also there to make sure at least the worst abuse is kept at bay. And I do not only discharge 15% of the available capacity, it is more like 50 to 60% for me on my daily commute. My battery is holding up well, after almost two years of continuous use up till now, from +38 down to -19°C ambient temps.

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safe's picture
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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

...in order to get the performance you sacrifice durability.

I really love the Nickel based batteries for their ability to withstand anything.

What is the "Holy Grail" is to have both performance as well as durability without needing exotic protection.

Lithium actually has good cycle life... but so does Nickel.

More research is what needs to happen.

Wh/kg is the more important metric. "How much it weighs vs what it can produce.". Volume is not typically a serious issue.
.

inventpeace's picture
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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

NIMH Pg1.lowres.jpg

NIMH Pg2.lowres.jpg

Nice reply...(NOTE the 1995 15 min recharge time to 80% in the above graphic, which is the original NIMH LF ad from GM Ovionic). but your repy doesn't mention that li-ion is "fragile" and can't take the beating that NIMH and even Ni-cads can. Someone (as said) reported that NIMH large format (LF) batteries have high energy density and are only about half weight of lead acids. THEORETICALLY since electrons weigh nothing, man should eventually be able to devise a super lightweight battery that will last hundreds of years.

FYI: NiFE (nickel iron ) batteries were purportedly used in the 1910 Edison electric and Jay Leno has one; the batteries still take a charge after over 100 years.
Toyota has said (rumor) that if nimh is operated between 40-80% that there is no degradation of the battery at all (meaning what? they could last for at least 100 years or more; consider 1998 toyota rav4 ev is still road today and with "original nimh battery pack". )

All this explains why Texaco (T. Boone Pickens) bought the Nimh patent from GM (GM got it from ovshinsky the inventor of improved version of NIMH LF ; they promised him they would us it in electric cars) ... insidious underhanded deal to illegally price fix oil super high (bankrupting world) and at same time suppress best battery on the market. NIMH LF's recharge in only 15 minutes to 80% FYI. TEXACO'S HOSTAGE patent runs out in 2014. Q: why doesn't GOvt prevent suppression of new tech by rich corps who simply buy them and sit on them so no one can use them?

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MEroller's picture
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Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

One last attempt from my side: 70 Watt-h/kg is pathetic specific energy. Li-chemistry is capable of more than double that.
If the Tesla Model S performance version with it's 85kWh Li battery would have a NiMH battery of that energy content, the battery would weigh in at around 1290kg/2840lbs vs. the 1300lbs Li battery in the Model S. 1500 lbs more to lug around all the time, using a lot more energy and cosuing far more wear an tear to tires, brakes and roads while doing so.
NiMH was top in 1995, but it no longer is, apart from longevity if marginally utilized.

Do you have personal stakes in that old Ovonic battery that you so vehemently crave for it and praise it so exuberantly?
Or are you on a personal tour of revenge towards Texaco for securing the patent so long ago and letting it die?
I don't get it...

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