Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in Forced Equalization Mode to Balance New LiFePO4 Cells

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martinwinlow
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Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in Forced Equalization Mode to Balance New LiFePO4 Cells

Hi,

Perhaps someone with more electronics/Vectrix knowledge than I have can answer these questions.

I have a Vectrix into which I am installing a set of new 40Ah LiFePO4 cells. I thought they were balanced before I assembled the pack and installed it in the bike. But on its first charge I am finding that some cells are significantly more charged than others. My BMMS can only either switch on the charger or switch it off and so, in trying to balance the cells, as it has by-pass resistors that can only handle 200mA, it is constantly cycling the Runke charger on and off. I guess this may not be a problem but I'd rather not have the charger cycling for however long it is going to take to balance the pack - it maybe an hour or more of switching on and off every 2 or 3 minutes with all the dash lights flashing and speedo needle sweeping taht that entails.

So, I was wondering if I could introduce a load of some sort in series with the pack - I was thinking of 240V 50W halogen downlighter bulbs - to reduce the Runke equalization charge current fron 3A down to say 180mA so the balancing resistors can cope and thus avoid the charger switching on and off.

Which leads me on to my next question... using the ScooterDiag software and PEAK cable (which I have and are working OK) I see there is an option to force an equalization charge (or at least I assume that is what it does, is says 'EQ Charge' followed by 'Enable' and 'Disable' buttons...) Can anyone confirm this witll do waht I think it does? As it is, my bike is in EQ mode anyway...

Next, I was worried that my new pack would not have enough juice to take it the 40 miles to work and back after my employer withdrew my permission to charge there, half way through upgrading my pack. As it is, I see the ScooterDiag app reports the 'Average Battery Capacity' as '8'. Am I right in thinking that this figure describes the average Ah used between charges? If so, am I also right in thinking that the new 40Ah pack (or even the orginial 30Ah if it were new) would be easily capable of doing two trips of the same journey ie 16Ah?

Any thougths gratefully received. MW

antiscab
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

some functions of the older scooter diag software work with the Runke, others only work sort of

if you need to balance the battery by any significant amount, your best bet is a single cell charger

brand new cells come from the factory all at exactly 50% SOC - the variation you are seeing at full charge is the variation in each cell's actual capacity

before you did your first charge did you set the fuel gauge to 0?

If so, how many bars were on the fuel gauge after the BMS disconnected the charger?

how many bars did you need to get to work before the conversion?

I don't recommend balancing by putting a small current through the pack continuously (the shunts may not be able to take it continuously and you risk over charging cells - termination voltage is a function of current - the lower the current the lower the end of charge voltage needs to be)

you're better off balancing incrementally, or if you need to be sure doing it on each cell individually with a single cell charger (or three)

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Archi13
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

First Level Battery.IMAGE00354.jpg

Archi13
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hello Martin,
Like you I use a Runke charger, with 42 thundersky 40Ah and it works fine. I can drive more than 73 km in one charge. They will now two month that I use my new battery, and I could approximate 5000 km. I use my Vectrix every day for go to my job at 36 km distant to home and I can charge at my job before the return (72 km/day). The big difference is that I don't use Bms, and I have no charge and drive problem.IMAGE00356.jpg

martinwinlow
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hi and thanks for the replies…

Matt, So what version of scooterdiag is best to use to work with the Runke? Is there a help file for it? Does someone have a copy of one or the other or both that they could email me, please?

I did not set the fuel gauge to zero - it was around 3 or 4 bars when I first started the charger up, IIRC and it is showing all the bars now.

I have been advised by others that the Vectrix charger switching on and off once every 3 minutes or so should not be a problem for it. What do you think?

Archi13 - What sort of speeds are you doing over your 73km?

Regards, Martin.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

Archi13
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hello Martin,
I drive at normal speed not eco, 90-100 on highway(for 10km), 60 in town and 80-90 (for 50 km) on Side road (outside town). I stop thé test because I haven't the cycle analyst and no voltage and amp indication. On the last bar I have every time 5km and I can drive more than 20 km, I never can have zero bar and zéro km, I think is a problem with scooterdiag, you can't give the correct capacity of 40A. I have check the voltage before charging and it's at 138 volts.

martinwinlow
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hi Archi13, Thank you for that. It sounds like your commute is similar to mine…

Can I make sure that I understand you correctly?

1/ You only charge at work?

2/ You use the Runke charger with 40Ah of LiFePO4 cells and can use all their capacity?

3/ You drive 73km every day on one charge, starting with full bars and still have one bar remaining after 73km?

4/ I assume all this means that you are achieving the 73km with less than 30Ah of energy? If not, how do you get the Vectrix to charge past the 30Ah limit?

I'm afraid I don't understand "On the last bar I have every time 5km and I can drive more than 20 km, I never can have zero bar and zéro km". I think the last bit means that your V has never had '0km' range remaining and it has never shown no bars.

Regards, Martin.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hello Martin,
1) No I charge at home to, every day and every time I can, It's better for the Lithium.
2) Yes but only for test but I think that I never use the total capacity of 40A. I need for charging when I go to working 3,45 KW in 230 volts and when I return at home 2,95 KW. The difference is that the street is no flat, slope up when I go and slope down when return.
3) No It's only one time for test my battery, and yes the last bar stay on the fuel gauge and every time the range stay around 5km, I can see 3 or 2 km if I accelerate more and when I take a slop down or use the regenerative throttle again 5 km appears.
4)Yes, I thinks that I can Charging 40A with the Runke because if I stay near my Vectrix during the charge, I can see that when the charge start (on every day the battery are not empty, they remains 5 or 6 Bar and the estimation range is more than 20 km after 36 km for return at home or going working) they are 139v on a dial left and CP153 in the center and this for one hour and 45 mn ~_ after that Tr mode start for 15 mn and the voltage on left return TO 146v and for finish the CC 153 mode start at 3A and the voltage on the left go up again at 152v and this for last 15mn. And then the charge is stopped and the battery are full I think. I disable EQ charge on scooterDiag because stay 1A and Two hours of time on the lithium is for nothing.

Best regards.

antiscab
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Matt, So what version of scooterdiag is best to use to work with the Runke? Is there a help file for it? Does someone have a copy of one or the other or both that they could email me, please?

Good question - I haven't really tested any of the scooter diag versions with the Runke

I do know for version 2.1 the set fuel gauge function works (0 = empty, 255 = full and everywhere in between)
and firmware updates work,

but aside from that, not sure - for lithium conversions with Runke charger's I normally leave the firmware as is

The Portugese fellows know far more about the Runke charger's than I do

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

martinwinlow
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hi Archi13,

So, next questions are what version of Motor Controller and Charger firmware are you using (you will probably have to check in scooterdiag) and what version of sooterdiag.exe are you using?

Regards, Martin

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

martinwinlow
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hi Matt,

Have you ever seen a help file for the scooterdiag software?

Could you walk me through setting the fuel gauge to zero, please? Clearly, I am missing something. Do you use Skype? Perhaps we could do a video link-up and I could show you what is happening at my end?

By Portuguese fellows I assume you mean FuelFreeMotos? I've not got anything useful out of them to be honest. But I'll ask specifically about a help file and their experience with Runke and scooterdiag compatibility.

Regards, Martin.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

Mik
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hi Archi13,

So, next questions are what version of Motor Controller and Charger firmware are you using (you will probably have to check in scooterdiag) and what version of sooterdiag.exe are you using?

Regards, Martin

I'm not sure it is possible to check.

The Scooterdiag software tells you what file it installed last time it was used, and where the file was coming from on the computer, but it could have been installed into a different scooter.

Maybe that is different with different Scooterdiag versions?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Archi13
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hi Martin,
My version for the motor controler is MC_1019 (112KM\H) and for charger BC 3005. I use scooterdiag 2.1 and yes you can set the fuel gauge to 0 when the battery are empty with the tab MC/Charger write 0 in a scare[set fuel gauge] and send and when the battery are full you write 255 and send.
Scooterdiag Fuelgauge 0.jpg
fuelgauge 255.jpg

The better is to found a scooterDiag version that allows to force the capacity to 40A.
Regards, Archi13.

bm3
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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

The normally used chargers for LiFePo4 cells use a well defined constant voltage to the end of charging. The Voltage is defined with 3.60-3,70V per cell.
When this defined Voltage over all cells is reached the bleeding balancers can work. Maybe some balancers must work already some Volts earlier.Should be 42 cells ? x 3,65V = 153V.
The charger should go up to this voltage and stop there.
The question is now how to get a constant voltage with the Runke charger ? Charger or BMS should not switch off at this voltage but should hold it and deliver it during some hours. May be, to get the cells well balanced and full loaded one can use a little extra power supply with 153V or a voltage constanter on 153V.

Klaus

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Re: Using Current-Restricted Standard (Runke) Charger in ...

Hello bm3,
With my Runke charger, the charge start in CP mode at 153 volts and when the battery have the same voltage, the charge will be stopped during 15 mn TR mode, and after the charge restart in CC mode at 3 amps 153 volts and when the voltage are the same on the battery the charge was stopped.
I have no bms and the charger work fine.

Archi13

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