Old VX1 put back to work

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turok
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Hi guys,

I've been away for quite a while (several years actually), but I could use some help now :)

I had bought a VX1 in 2008, and crashed it horribly end 2012. Then I recovered from most injuries (I'm 88% ok now, literally :D) and bought a second hand Vectrix with defective charger and made one out of the two (with some spares as a bonus).

Now (as a result from the accident) I chose to start a new life in another country (left Belgium for Greece about 3 - 4 years ago).

In the meanwhile, my Vx1 had been waiting to be sent to Greece all that time.

Last saturday, it finally arrived here in Greece (together with some spares), and I drove (!) it off the truck and drove (extremely slowly) straight home (+- 2km) for a deeper inspection.

So now there are some "small" problems I would like some advice on.

1) First of all, I have seen a "capcur" while driving. How bad is this? What happens if you keep driving like this?

2) The battery gauge is acting like a kind of voltmeter. I remember reading about this a long time ago, but what does it mean? Software? Charger? Mainboard?

3) When I plug the bike in to charge, it acts like you turn on the ignition. As I wasn't sure if it was charging, so I opened up the battery compartiment and verified the voltage, it does seem to charge, but I have no indication on the dashboard about temperature or voltage any more. The battery gauge filled up though.

4) I discovered that ALL visible temperature sensors in the battery pack are toast (literally toasted black)

After having charged for a while I did another test drive, and I literally cried of hapiness, where was my mind when I left the bike in Belgium????
And I'm amazed that I have a freaking 8 year old electric bike and still going so strong (even the battery) and still very up to date :)

I have a reserve battery pack (with temp sensors), but I'm scared that if I put it in, these sensors will burn out too!

So some advice would be very very much appreciated

ps. the latest software I had installed was from the Laird a version of 2012, which was perfect for me.

Turok

Pps I missed you guys :) Just curious, who remembers me?

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martinwinlow
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Hi Turok,

I remember you!

Firstly, having managed to avoid The Grim Reaper once, are you sure you want to risk another meeting riding a 2 wheeled vehicle in, of all places, *Greece*?! I think you should check out the 2 wheel fatality statistics for that country and compare them with Belgium! If you still want to go ahead and ride a bike there, make darn sure you have good protective equipment on *all the time*. I know you are going to get *hot* but better mild discomfort than... the other alternative.

Anyway, sounds like the donor bike has had The Laird's firmware (or someone else's non-standard) firmware installed. There are lots of threads on VIFV about this and I suggest you read up on them. I'm pretty sure the temp sensors are irrelevant now anyway.

You didn't say if you left your bike (for years?!) connected to the mains to allow it to charge but I gather not and I would say you are very lucky your battery pack is not complete toast. You also didn't say what sort of cells it has...?

When you plug in the V to charge it, it always *did* behave 'like you turned on the ignition'... by which I assume you mean the gauges light up etc? You should still get the little plug symbol (mains connected) and underneath that, the 'battery with a lightning bolt through it' symbol which means it is charging (both just to the right of the 'GO'). The 'Estimated Range' reading *is* now a voltmeter and shows the pack voltage at all times (I think!) including when charging. The speedo still shows charging current but it will be somewhat less than it used to be (typically 7A Vs 11A).

I can't help with the 'capcur' but believe it is something to do with the big capacitors on the inverter board. But of all that you mention, this is where you need to look carefully and quickly as it does not sound good!

Good luck and for Heaven's sake - be careful! Take a good defensive riding course or something! Take up knitting!

MW

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Herts UK
evalbum.com/2092

R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Pps I missed you guys :) Just curious, who remembers me?

Good to see you here!
I'm glad you're fine after that accident.
Of course I remember you. Look at that post, Fri, 10/24/2014 - 16:31

I'm wondering if Turok now believes in Elvis...
turok last login 31 weeks 21 hours ago

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13892-have-you-ever-scraped-road-during-tirns#comment-73608

I'll try to answer later about you vectrix issues.

turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Hi again,

Hi Roger, sweet, nice to see you again too :)

Hi Martin,

Yes, YES, YESSS, I love two-wheelers, and the V is an amazing bike to drive! Greece is, in comparison with Belgium, two-wheel heaven (300 days of sun instead of 300 days of rain :)).
And yes, I realize that it's a lot more dangerous over here (we usually have one or two casualties per year on the island (Leros, +- 8000 inhabitants)), but I'm not afraid. I've seen the face of death, and it's not that bad :)
Impossible to wear a heavy jacket and trousers, or even gloves in the summer though, but I would not drive without a helmet, which is common practice over here.

Ok, serious now..
- I had the bike sitting in a garage in Belgium, and whenever I went there, I topped it up (two times a year?). When I thought about it, I also asked a friend to plug it in every once in a while.
Now the last time I went, about 4 months ago, when I plugged it in, it warned about temperature and charged at lowered rate. Thus the temperature sensors must already have been toast then. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to get deeper into it then.
In the current status, the bike doesn't mention the temperature any more, and it seems to charge normally (except for the "ready" status on the dashboard), but I don't know if it will stop charging automatically!!
The NIMH battery pack is not dead at all (I'm shocked after 8 years age and 3 years of no use), but I don't know its health condition. I have a second NIMH pack waiting if ever..

- I had installed the Laird's firmware myself a long time ago (I was stupid enough to forget to send the programming device over together with the bike, but I will get it soon)
But I'm afraid, if I would re-install the firmware, the problem with the temp sensors is going to stop my bike from charging normally. Maybe there is someone who could adapt the firmware to ignore them?
The estimated range USED to be the volt meter with the Laird's firmware, but now it just says "0", the battery gauge on the right is now clearly acting as a kind of voltage indicator (I have seen this before, but I forgot what the problem was then)

This is the dashboard when the bike is switched on:
2016-09-19 18.56.34.jpg

This is the dashboard when plugged in:
2016-09-19 18.57.05.jpg

So no difference at all it seems to me.

Fortunately I can CHARGE and DRIVE, fuck knitting :D :D But thanks for the advice anyway, I appreciate you concern.
It was quite an expensive bike in 2008 and I still want all the bang for my buck; I will drive the shit out of my V until all my spares are used and if not, until it burns out completely ;)

cheers!

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R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Lets go straight.
1) "capcur" issue
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11218-capcur-error#comment-60985
Drew says:

The error (from what I understand) stands for 'CAPacitor Current' and is related to one of the four large yellow MuRata ceramic capacitors in the motor controller. Clearly something has gone wrong with one of these and the bike's diagnostics has flagged it as an error as it will have been operating outside of acceptable limits.
Sure, the bike could still be ridden with the error but it was only a matter of time before complete failure.
my assumption is that there are 4x 40A fuses and associated MuRata capacitors; possibly one for each motor phase and one to cover regen?

My guess: Check if small fusses associated to ceramic capacitors ae broken. Uf they're broken, update MC board with fuse kit:

http://www.shop.vectrixparts.com/fuse-200a-758.html
or update MC
http://www.shop.vectrixparts.com/parker-mc-fuse-upgrde-service.html

2) Symptom of damaged charger. If the charger's CAN comunication fails, the gauge acts as a voltmeter.
3) the charger works, but cannot tell the rest of vectrix's subsystem via canbus that it is charging. It does seem that the charger's CPU logic is OK, but the Charger's CAN system is broken,
4)not good at all! this may explain why the charger's CAN module is not working

I suggest you unplug toasted boards an check if CAN works again.

As the CAN module is not working, You cannot reach the charger via scooterdiag, no chance to update firmware.
I suggest you buy a new modified ESD, which can charge at low outputs to equalize lithium in the future, or the newer EVPS V30(V30 is the 1900w, reliable version).

http://www.shop.vectrixparts.com/runke-battery-charger-gold-1-9-2-1n-duplikat-1.html
http://www.shop.vectrixparts.com/runke-battery-charger-3-0.html

turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Ok,

Some kind of "good" news: I unplugged the temp sensor module, and now I get this:

2016-09-21-18.50.00.jpg

Notice that the voltage indicator appeared again, so Roger, you must have been right about the CAN not working right with the damaged temp sensors. Obviously I get blinking red temp warning lights too now.

Notice also that the charging current is limited now. If necessary, I'll just plug them back in and live with it, but...

I have a spare battery set with working (?) temp sensors, but I'm afraid that if I put it in the bike, the temp sensors might burn out too. what do you think?
Is there maybe a possibility to overrule the defective sensors in the software? Or just emulate them? or any other ideas?

I rode the bike the last days, and the Capcur error didn't appear any more. Fingers crossed. But it's good to know that there is a solution out there for it too.

Thanks a lot already

cheers!

Dirk

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R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Is there maybe a possibility to overrule the defective sensors in the software? Or just emulate them? or any other ideas?

So, the charger seems to be fine! Great!

Now comes the interesting part: the laird Team has a wonderful set of firmwares for you:
1- A firmware for the ESD charger (thanks hybride!) without any charging values stored inside.
2- A fimware for the ICM (thanks Framuga!)which allows custom programmable charging values: these values are set from the vectrix, no need for computers and can adapters. It partially emulates Magic box functions.
3-Aditionally you can install latest MC1014b evolution: low limit raised to 120V, max speed raised to 115kmh, and real control cruise enabled.

How it works:
1- program charging values with brake levers (I'm sure you already know what values should you choose to avoid damaging cells)
2-Store the values inside ICM permanent memory.
3- Plug in the scooter. The charger will read the values stored inside the ICM, and begin the charge

Now comes the funny part: The temp boards interfere and must be permanently unplugged! cheers!

PS: You can buy also a magic box (thanks paul!). This fantastic device counts amperes, displays instant power, and sends also charging values to the ESD charger. My vectrix is ruled by that magic box, and I really love it!

Aircon
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Where are all these firmware options and the instructions on how to use them?

R wrote:

Is there maybe a possibility to overrule the defective sensors in the software? Or just emulate them? or any other ideas?

So, the charger seems to be fine! Great!

Now comes the interesting part: the laird Team has a wonderful set of firmwares for you:
1- A firmware for the ESD charger (thanks hybride!) without any charging values stored inside.
2- A fimware for the ICM (thanks Framuga!)which allows custom programmable charging values: these values are set from the vectrix, no need for computers and can adapters. It partially emulates Magic box functions.
3-Aditionally you can install latest MC1014b evolution: low limit raised to 120V, max speed raised to 115kmh, and real control cruise enabled.

How it works:
1- program charging values with brake levers (I'm sure you already know what values should you choose to avoid damaging cells)
2-Store the values inside ICM permanent memory.
3- Plug in the scooter. The charger will read the values stored inside the ICM, and begin the charge

Now comes the funny part: The temp boards interfere and must be permanently unplugged! cheers!

PS: You can buy also a magic box (thanks paul!). This fantastic device counts amperes, displays instant power, and sends also charging values to the ESD charger. My vectrix is ruled by that magic box, and I really love it!

R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

The laird Box:
https://app.box.com/s/8z1c1b9009abwyv5r2sl044uvjw1kwev
Anybody hanging around has admin privileges to start a sticky post containing that URL?

Aircon
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

R wrote:

The laird Box:
https://app.box.com/s/8z1c1b9009abwyv5r2sl044uvjw1kwev
Anybody hanging around has admin privileges to start a sticky post containing that URL?

Are there instructions there on how to adjust voltage, cruise control and other tricks etc? If so, it's not immediately obvious to me where they are.

R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Are there instructions there on how to adjust voltage, cruise control and other tricks etc? If so, it's not immediately obvious to me where they are.

You're right, there aren't obvius instructions for latest updates. There are some TXT files attached to Firmware files.
Maybe you can help The Laird Team to build A small instructions/guide.

turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Ok, that looks very interesting..

*Maybe a stupid question, what does ICM stand for?* - googled it, Instrument cluster module.. ah so that's the purpose of that little box I have in my spares pile :)
So that's been hacked too huh? cool..

And oh wauw, I just looked at the site with the spare parts, that's a pretty cool evolution I missed too :)

That magic box also looks like an interesting evolution, where to buy? Contact Prensel? Or is it just an arduino Leonardo with the right software?

I'm amazed by the fact that you guys keep developping all that stuff, for a bike that was deadborn in the first place, but on the other hand, I also understand!

I can't wait to go get my peak can adapter back (I'm picking it up in Belgium in a few weeks). I hope that old windows XP computer I had for it still works :)

In the meantime, I also measured some individual visible cells in the spare battery that has been stored since my accident (+- 4 years) : 1.1 - 1.2 volts. Damn those Nimh cells were really tough :)

I'm actually hopefull that I might be able to drive the V some more years..

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Aircon
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

R wrote:

Are there instructions there on how to adjust voltage, cruise control and other tricks etc? If so, it's not immediately obvious to me where they are.

You're right, there aren't obvius instructions for latest updates. There are some TXT files attached to Firmware files.
Maybe you can help The Laird Team to build A small instructions/guide.

lol....I'd happily contribute by writing an instruction page, but the trouble is *I* don't know how to use any of the functions.

The 3 things I'd be especially interested in is how to set charge voltage (I have 147v max) and how to activate the cruise control. Does the ICM have headlight indicator override? I have an LED headlight.

R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

That magic box also looks like an interesting evolution, where to buy? Contact Prensel? Or is it just an arduino Leonardo with the right software?

Both Right. You can buy it to Prensel or build it.

I hope that old windows XP computer I had for it still works :)

You may donwnload latest scotterdiag from vectrix web, it works with W7.

R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

.I'd happily contribute by writing an instruction page, but the trouble is *I* don't know how to use any of the functions.

Thank you for your offer! I'll send you PM.

To summarize. There are different versions of firmwares for each computer.
Motorcontroller. MC1014b splits into 6 versions, for niquel, for leaf 36s and 38s, all with or without control cruise.
Charger. Only for ESD type. Splits into 4 versions, for niquel, for leaf 36s and 38s, and programable (from ICM or magic box)
ICM. Splits into 5 versions. Old original 1008. Newer DIY 1708, and 3 framuga series: CC twistgrip freeze, CC real, and programmable for charger.

how to set charge voltage (I have 147v max)

you'll need to install ESD charger programable firmware to your ESD, and ICM programable firmware to your ICM.
Unplug tempboards. Read txt, follow instructions. yes messy txt... the important parameters are 4. CPA CPV CCA CCV. CP is constant power, it is fist stage of charge. cpa set ampers, cpv sets target voltage. CC is constant current, second charging stage. Important! check cell voltage at at end of CC.

how to activate the cruise control

with CC twistgrip freeze icm firmware, it is ruled from ICM. just push flash button. To cancel, flash button, regen or brake. Manual acceleration is allowed.
with CC real ICM firmware, it si ruled by MC. You need to install also MC CC firmware. Push flash button (top speed is now limited) and full throttle (real CC is activated)
To cancel, regen or brake.

Does the ICM have headlight indicator override?

yes, works fine with LED headlights.
There have been huge modifications to framuga ICM code.
And you can suggest further improvements to master framuga to improve that firmware.

turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

hi again ..

finally got the peak can adapter back, and got to the task of uploading the newest files.
the one without temp control, remember, burnt sensors.. so unplugged them first
MC went ok, charger also, but the icm didn't seem to work (said something like waiting for bus communication at the very end, but didn't show version 1708 after the upload)

anyway, after, i plugged the bike in, and it seemed to start charging for a few seconds, then went in tr mode, an quickly went to 'EC 145', now apparenlty charging at 1,5A?
voltage now is 128 and rising, but slowly.

it seems to do the same as whith the broken temp sensors under the previous software maybe?

__EDIT_addition----got the 1708 working too, but doesn't make a difference------

Ps, I can't find that text file you refer to that should explain how to actually change the parameters CPA CPV CCA CCV in the ICM, do you do this when the bike is in normal or charging mode?

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framuga
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

It is advisable to use the Magic Box for review configurable EDS charger. ICM configurable firmware is a beta version that is still unstable.

turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

I agree, I think it is the way to go.
If I'm sure that it will work then, because I can't believe that I'm the only one with this kind of problem since I installed the software without the magic box?
If it was a general fault, I'd be reading about it on the forum, but it looks rather unique..

But in the meantime, might there be a solution?
I hoped being able to program the chargesettings of the bike with the new ICM firmware, but I couldn't find how to activate anything? sure someone should know?

I tried several times to charge, then drove a bit, then retried again, keeps going into EC mode, so at 1,3A charging rate and stopping after a while, the bike is useless now for me.

Knowing that my temp sensors are out (broken and now anyway not connected), would there be a firmware version that could work for me?
I had the NI30NTG2+eq.hex installed, and now also tried with the one without EQ, still the same problem.

help would really be appreciated..

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turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Ok, got the bike up and running again, another V kept alive!

The problem was that I had one of the temperature boards still connected, this seemed to interfere with the buscommunication.

Thanks _Thelaird again, great software, really great work, you are a genius! (I guess you were not all alone to develop this, so thanks to all who contributed!)

I'm able to set the charging values and everything, and although the range of the bike is now less (higher cutoff value), I'm sure the battery will benefit a lot from it.

Actually the battery I have is 8 years old, and that is waaay beyond my expectations.
Living on a small island (don't really need much range), and having a spare NIMH battery still (which has been sitting unused for 4 years, but still at a healthy overall voltage), I hope to extend the life of my V quite some more.
The option of lithium is tempting, but actually I don't need it for now.

Now some people advised to add Paul's Magic box to the system.
I read the manual I found: https://app.box.com/s/8z1c1b9009abwyv5r2sl044uvjw1kwev/1/4956988541/50457632185/1 to find out if there would be a significant advantage compared to the setup I have now.
Allthough I'm amazed by what has been accomplished, it seems mostly to be providing additional information: AH count, temperatures etc..
Is that right? Or is there something I'm missing?

I do like the gadget factor and all, but I think the bike is already technically complicated enough, and the more you add the more problems you could encounter, I'd think.

I really wouldn't mind spending a few € (and supporting Paul's work at the same time), but can someone give me the "aha" reason to add it?

And again thanks to all you contributing here! It is thanks to you guys that the bike is still alive after so many problems.
Sometimes I regret that I can't do more than leech on it (due to a very busy lifestyle), but I guess in the end that is the purpose of a forum and a community like this one!
But I hope my thankfulness and appreciation will drive you guys to keep up the good work!
I owe you all an ouzo ;)

turok

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turok
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Hi all,

I've been running The_Laird's (latest) firmwares for some days now, and I'd like to ask some questions:

1) I've been looking around for the meaning of all the abbreviations I see on the dashboard, found some of them, but not all. It might be useful to explain them all in one sticky post or the manual for the ignorants like me :)?
cycling: AHD - AHC - °CT - RAT
Programming: CPV - CPA - CCV - CCA - BC - LC - SENDOH

2) I'm riding quite hilly terrains, and of course I hear the fans cooling the MC, but if you stop and switch off the bike, the fans stop immediately too, and I fear that this is not ideal.
Maybe something for the next version?
Also I remember having before a version that kept the battery cooling (impeller?) running after switchoff for some time. I didn't like it because the noise was quite high, but now it might be quite useful for me (perhaps even at lower than standard rpm?) (don't know if it's possible of course)

3) now I have the mc1014b-70-120-140.hex in combination with ICM2016_rv64.hex and ESD_configurable_v1.2.hex installed.
The 120V cutoff gives me really too little range, I'm willing to take the risk to install the mc1014b-70-110-140.hex.
Is there only one version of this? I mean will it work with the other files I have installed?

4) as I asked in my previous post, can someone enlighten me why I should install the magic box?
Is there a good post about it?

5) CP - Constant power and CC - contant current
When I set CPV on 146 with CPA at 6A the voltage rises quickly and easily to 146.
But when I set CCV on 147 with CCA at 3A, the voltage starts dropping again and the charging process never stops (and I noticed that the battery heated up quite hard).
I guess (really just guess, because, I admit, I don't really understand the difference between CP and CC) that my battery is just getting too old?

I'm reading up as much as I can but..
The forum now contains SO much information that it's really getting difficult to find anything specific :/

Thx in advance for your help (even if it's only on one of the subjects)..

Dirk

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MEroller
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Electrical current is measured in Amps, so A, but for electrical Power you need to multiply those Amps with the battery voltage.

While you charge with constant current, the battery voltage rises, and thus charging power also rises. If you charge with constant power, the charging current is dialled down as the battery voltage rises, thus keeping the charging power constant.
Constant voltage tends to be the final stage of most battery charging, thus dialling the current continuously down until it switches off below a certain charging current, while the voltage remains the same.
With the rest more knowledgable folks will have to comment.

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My rides:
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E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

framuga
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

AHD - hour amps discharged in the last charge cycle. AHC - hour amps charged at the last load ° CT - degrees reached by motor controller RAT ratio between discharged amps / kilometers traveled.

R
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Re: Old VX1 put back to work

Resuming framuga answer,
1)

Programming: CPV - CPA - CCV - CCA - BC - LC - SENDOH

CPV constant power phase, set voltage
CPA, "" set ampers
CCV constant current phase, set voltage
CCA "" set ampers
BC battery capacity in Ah. In your case, your battery should hold between 10-15Ah
LC leakage current&co, to my knowledge not implemented.
SENDOH send values to system

2)The cooling impellers are controlled by the charger. This configurable firmware was build by master Hybride, he is the one who can answer your question.

3)You'll damage the battery. If I were you I'd buy an RC charger and cycle the modules to recover range. But better look for LEAF cells!
nimhkilled2.jpg

4)http://visforvoltage.org/forum/14163-configurable-esd-firmware

5)Correct, your battery is old and no longer admits energy at 146-147V. It transforms energy into heat, and lowers its voltage, this is why the charge never ends. Same happened to me on my second vectrix. Now I program CP 1,42Vx102=144V 5A, CC 145V 2,5A

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