Water Fuel?????????

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ArcticFox's picture
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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Thanks.

My design just came to me while I was standing in HomeDepot wondering what I went in there for (I still don't know why).

Searching around the net, I did find this info:

Quote:

Voltage:4.8 V
Amp:300 mA
Frequency: 923 cycles per second (Hz)
H/O production achieves maximum with 923Hz.

http://www.ecosustainablevillage.com/us_patents.htm

I think it may be incorrect information (something tells me :) ). I've never seen H2 production be as violent as shown in those pictures.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Then I find this:

Quote:

In the first test a DC 12 volt 400 mA power supply was used. In a second test a 4.5 volt solar panel was used. The key to making gas from water is the frequency and duty cycle. In my tests I used 640 hz square wave with a minimal of 40 duty cycle. The higher the duty cycle the more gas bubbles formed. 800hz also works at a duty cycle from 40-100. One other frequency also works 923Hz. The frequencies have been known for decades now.

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zerogas's picture
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Re: Water Fuel?????????

HOLY SH**!!! That was alot of HHO!

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Just a word of caution: don't mistake a chemical reaction for a catalyst.

Check out this analysis of the Genepax Water Car from Treehugger:

One thing that helps fuel the conspiracy rumors surrounding water cars is that the media run these segments where they show "water cars" actually driving around, and it all seems to work, and then we never hear about them again. People figure that Big Oil (or the Illuminati, whatever) is suppressing the technology. The reality is more mundane: It is actually possible to make a car look like it runs on water without breaking the first law of thermodynamics. The way it's usually done is with metal hydrides. These react with water to produce hydrogen, which is then used to power the car. But since these hydrides will deplete with time, they need to be replaced and so they are actually the fuel, not the water. And you can be sure that more energy will go into producing them than will be taken out, making them an energy carrier, just like a battery.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

MikeB wrote:

Just a word of caution: don't mistake a chemical reaction for a catalyst.

Yep, fair point. However, the "Stanley Meyer's" approach uses straight tap water (or distilled water if you like) with no additional catalysts or chemicals. The water is certainly depleted over time. I'm not sure about whether the SS electrodes deplete or not.

The theory is that the frequency somehow reduces the energy required to break the chemical bonds. Kind of like how a resonant wave can focus energy. That's my conceptual model of this (which could be COMPLETELY WRONG).

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

ArcticFox wrote:

Searching around the net, I did find this info:

Quote:

Voltage:4.8 V
Amp:300 mA
Frequency: 923 cycles per second (Hz)
H/O production achieves maximum with 923Hz.

http://www.ecosustainablevillage.com/us_patents.htm

Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on there. Also, with an open top container and all that sloshing around I'm not sure how he figures what he's produced in gas and what he's spilled :-)

However, that's the general idea - but the folks that I've heard of that have been successful have all used concentric tubes. Check out this post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3079.html (start at the beginning and look for Ravi's posts).

I'll dig up the Ravi videos tonight and post a link.

EDIT: And what's in the bottom of that cylinder in those pictures? One thing I'm fairly sure of is that we won't all be running our cars for 1500 miles off of four AA batteries... (or will we? ;-))

EDIT2: It's sulfuric acid at the bottom - so this is just like a lead acid battery during charging which produces hydrogen. Whether it really produces the volumes of gas reported seems questionable (and also he'd have likely blown himself up if he had done this).

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

One step closer to putting my HHO generator on my Crown Vic. As soon as the shunt comes in for my amp gauge, I'll be ready. I was messing around with it today.....
www.youtube.com/v/BdWtjArsCdM
It's not ALOT of HHO, but it's a start.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Is anyone going to be using Potassium Hydroxide (KOH)?

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

AF wrote:

Is anyone going to be using Potassium Hydroxide (KOH)?

Not me, but I expect zerogas will be (or some other electrolyte)

You've got to remember that there's two completely different approaches being covered in this thread.

zerogas is using standard, or "brute force" electrolysis. He's putting high amps into his cell and getting a moderate return of HHO. The advantage he gains is the HHO improves the combustion process, allowing a leaner fuel mix which achieves better MPG. He's not "releasing extra energy" - he's taking more energy from the altenator and producing HHO which improves the efficiency of the burn process. The science of this style of electrolysis is well understood and not debated. The debate is whether you can produce enough HHO and improve combusion enough to increase MPG by 5, 10 or 50%.

zerogas - check out zerofossilfuel on youtube, particularly the videos starting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjxKsCdpr0Y. He explains a simple to build controller that can keep your amperage draw constant as the temperature in your HHO cell rises.

What I'm trying is high frequency low power "electrolysis". It's not even clear it's electrolysis at all. In this model it's all about "releasing extra energy". Conventional science tells us that's not possible in this situation. However, science has no problem about converting energy from one form to another - for example drop a match in the forest and you get a lot more energy out than you put in (don't try that at home kids). So, the debate to me really seems to be about the most efficient way of transforming H20 into H2 and O2 (there are some folks who insist on the idea that monatomic hydrogen and oxygen are formed - but they're crazy, just ask a chemist ;-) ) To look at it another way can "high frequency" be the match to burn down the forest (split the water into H2 and O2)?

Both zerogas and I are looking to get Hydroxy to play with - but we're approaching it differently. Zerogas is guaranteed to succeed - the question is can he produce enough to increase the fuel efficiency of his land barge. I'm likely not going to succeed - but I'm going to have fun trying!

My current status is that my PWM box of tricks (to produce the required wave form) is dead. My partner in crime is fixing it for me. He's already done his first trial run and got a few bubbles and brown mucky water. This is good! It's a pathetic amount of Hydroxy but it's behaving as expected for this stage. Next comes the conditioning... Hopefully I'll get my black box back tomorrow or Friday and I can see if I can breathe some life into this thing.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

I understand there are 2 different ways here of doing this. I'm doing the brute-force method for now as well - until someone posts a schematic of the ZPE device.

BTW, if I don't like the results of my brute force design, I think I can use the same equipment for my scalar transmitter . ;)

What metals are you guys using? Stainless, brass, aluminium, zinc-plated...?

Hydrogen eye candy:
liquid_hydrogen.jpg

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Hydrogen interests:

http://www.dishprodirect.com/hydrogenassist.htm

Hydrogen leak versus gas leak:

Gen pics:


This one is on sale for $1725:

"Makes 200 litres oxy-hydrogen per hour"

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

I don't have a relay on mine. Should I have one? Where do I need to add it in?

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Oh, yeah. This stuff really is VERY explosive. I haven't glued the cap on my "power tube" for obvious filling reasons. When we had it running, I was holding a lighter to the output tube to see if I could get a flame. Then, KAPOW!!!!!!!! This thing shot the cap off so high, that it nearly hit my friend in the forehead! I kept looking for it to fall and about 2 or 3 seconds later it landed right beside me! I have no idea how high it shot the cap, but it was a powerful blast. I have no doubt that if you could make enough HHO per minute you COULD run a car on it.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

jdh2550_1 wrote:
MikeB wrote:

Just a word of caution: don't mistake a chemical reaction for a catalyst.

Yep, fair point. However, the "Stanley Meyer's" approach uses straight tap water (or distilled water if you like) with no additional catalysts or chemicals. The water is certainly depleted over time. I'm not sure about whether the SS electrodes deplete or not.

The theory is that the frequency somehow reduces the energy required to break the chemical bonds. Kind of like how a resonant wave can focus energy. That's my conceptual model of this (which could be COMPLETELY WRONG).

Well, you might be reducing the amount of energy that's wasted in the process, but basic thermodynamics still applies: the amount of energy required to break the chemical bonds is always greater than the energy recovered by restoring those same bonds. At best, you are getting closer to the break-even point.

Of course, reducing the amount of wasted energy in a process is always a good endeavor, especially if you have a grand plan like making hydrogen using solar-generated electricity, and then storing the hydrogen for later use.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Zerogas;

you should be on the "Myth Busters" show :)

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Quote:

Chemist Daniel Nocera, head of the M.I.T.'s Solar Revolution Project, focused on one side of the equation: splitting water into its constituent hydrogen and oxygen molecules. This can be done well, but it remains difficult to actually separate the molecules. But Nocera and postdoctoral fellow Matthew Kanan discovered it could be accomplished by simply adding[...]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=hydrogen-power-on-the-cheap

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

ArcticFox wrote:

until someone posts a schematic of the ZPE device.

Dude, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. Now, is it really worth it?

Just kidding. I really don't know much about the device - I'm just playing follow along with a friend who is the true "mad scientist". I'm more like "a merely demented lab technician's apprentice"... If I get it all working this weekend then I'll start a blog entry with schematics and pretty pictures and you can play along too.

Mike_B wrote:
jdh wrote:

The theory is that the frequency somehow reduces the energy required to break the chemical bonds. Kind of like how a resonant wave can focus energy. That's my conceptual model of this (which could be COMPLETELY WRONG).

Well, you might be reducing the amount of energy that's wasted in the process, but basic thermodynamics still applies: the amount of energy required to break the chemical bonds is always greater than the energy recovered by restoring those same bonds. At best, you are getting closer to the break-even point.

Well, actually I'll go for the parenthetical solution - I'm just COMPLETELY WRONG with my conceptual model. I am still curious as to the potential for results. I've seen enough claims and video evidence to say "it's worth a look". If, by some amazing chance, we can get the production levels they claim - then I'll leave it to far cleverer folks than me to explain it.

zerogas wrote:

Oh, yeah. This stuff really is VERY explosive. I haven't glued the cap on my "power tube" for obvious filling reasons. When we had it running, I was holding a lighter to the output tube to see if I could get a flame. Then, KAPOW!!!!!!!! This thing shot the cap off so high, that it nearly hit my friend in the forehead! I kept looking for it to fall and about 2 or 3 seconds later it landed right beside me!

Dude! this is why you need a bubbler between your HHO cell and wherever you burn the gas - it stops the flashback in a less dramatic fashion (unless of course you wanted to nail your friend with a ballistic device)

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

LMAO! I have the bubbler, we just weren't using it because we wanted to make fire. :)

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

@zerogas:
fire.jpg

.

My stuff so far:

emitters.jpg
parts.jpg

BTW, if anyone is interested in knowing how I make threaded holes for the "1/4OD(1/8CTS)X1/8MIP Quick Connect Elbow", let me know - no one at Home Depot had any idea; I had to figure out a fancy way to do it without their help (like usual).

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

AF - that sure looks pretty. But I still say it ain't going to work very well - not enough overlap between the cathode and anode.

Yes, I'd like to know your threading trick. Thanks!

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Come on, pretty is what gets things done. Well, pretty is what She uses to get me to do things. ;)

Like I said, I'm going to have to brute force this thing until someone posts up plans and/or schematics for whatever you're doing.

HHO-cas1.jpg
This is the one and only casing design. The internal elements will be designed for ease of removal and replacement from the bottom.

> 3" PVC, 18"h
> 1.5" PVC, 16"h
> Screw-on caps on the bottom
> Rubber caps (with clamps removed) on the top for safety; over-pressure release and water fill
> One long clear tubing on the 3" for water level observance
> Same type tubing connects from upper of 3" to lower of 1.5" bubbler
> Same type tubing will connect from upper bubbler and routed to air intake of vehicle.

I've already a new element design in the works, but am waiting to test the first one, so I have something to compare with.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Odd... beer makes a lot more bubbles on the H2 side than water. (yes, it's the weekend)

I've two other design ideas in line after this one.

Found this on YouTube:

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Meanwhile, deep in Fox's underground lair...

HHO production:

First test of my third design. 24volts DC, about 1A (I think), elements are only half built as I didn't get enough supplies while at Home Depot. Stainless steel blank wallplates, nylon bolts/nuts/washers (spacers), stainless steel 50# stranded wire. Designed: +||||||||||||||- end plates are energized, all others in between are not electrically connected. Electrolyte: distilled water and ACV (unmeasured). After running for about 15 minutes, no discolouration of the electrolyte, no corrosion of the emitters or wire. 3 leaks just sitting there so I'll have to silicone things when it's finally finished. :(

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Do you get better production from 24v than 12v? That's a good amount of HHO from 1a of current. This is very interesting.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Well, I don't know.

At 12v I had just distilled water in it and wasn't getting any bubbles. Then I switched to 24 volts and still wasn't getting anything. So I poured a little ACV in and started seeing a reaction (bubbles!) so I poured a bit more in and waited for it to blend with the water. About 15 minutes later I come back and see all these bubbles, so I grab the cam to record for you guys.

I think it's the ACV that's doing it.

I found specs on the power supply I'm using (RoHS Compliant!):
http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=AL300ULB

Shows 2.5amps. So, 24v/2.5a :) I see they now have a 6amp version... just may have to get that one; these are real good boards with neat little features and no problems for the past 9 years I've had them.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

AF -

YOU DO KNOW THAT THE HYDROXY WILL "pool" IN YOUR RAFTERS? WITH ENOUGH BUILD UP AND ONE LITTLE SPARK... DON'T DO THIS INDOORS!!! MAKE SURE IT'S WELL VENTED! (go and waft that stuff you just created out the basement!)

My system is up and running. 13.8V from a power supply and car battery in parallel. No electrolyte - just tap water. Consuming around 0.5A I get a reasonable amount of bubbles, upping the amps to 1.5A gives more, @ 2.5A and the space between the top of the tubes (electrodes) and the surface of the water is completely cloudy with little bubbles. After 30 minutes I need to change the water because it's brown and mucky (the process is forcing some of the iron out of the stainless steel). This is just the conditioning phase - I'll keep doing this until (a) no more brown muck and (b) nice white coating on cathode.

I'll post some pictures and links and stuff later tonight.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Hydroxy pool? What are you talking about? I've had this thing running all night and I don't s....

poof.jpg

Xp

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Hey, how did you get that picture of where Ann Arbor used to be so fast? I just took a match to my hydroxy...

Seriously, I just did, the bigger bubbles make a satisfying little firecracker bang - world domination here I come (as long as you'll all just hang around for the next 1000 years while I bubble enough hydroxy gas...)

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

Small updates:

>With the power I'm using now, less plates makes more bubbles. I was getting better results with half the size.

>There are more bubbles @24 volts than at 12.

>Less plates apparently means higher power going through the system - things on the power supply get dangerously hot!

>Hot tap water seems to work better than cold distilled w/ACV.

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Re: Water Fuel?????????

AF - can you put an ammeter in series with your power supply? You're providing straight DC right? No pulsing?

My setup is using about 40W (13.6V * 3A) peak - but I can dial that down to 7W (0.5A). When conditioned the goal is about 5 to 7 cc/sec at 6 or 7 watts. I've no idea what production rate I have now - I'm just in the conditioning phase.

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