LifeBatt, Real Calculations and Costs
By all means, usatracy - get yourself one of those YESA packs that you mention above and do some tests for your audience here. Put your money where mouth is! :-)
DH
Watch the battery packs ===
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No matter if you want use in high current like 1000 amps ( deafscooter need use 1000 amps )
to run high powered motor in scooter & i want use 24 volts maxuim at 1000 amps for 5 minutes
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will the li-ion or lifebattery can handle to 1000 amps discharge for FIVE Minute at fulll power????
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Tell me what kind the battery can handle the my requier to use high current to feeding monster
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Deafscooter know happen with other fire from li ion battery packs failed ==>>
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sabl/2007/Oct/batteries.html
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Craig Uyeda
Deafscooter
"So, I do "put my money where my mouth is", I would ASSUME you have the finances in place to operate a business and as such could surely afford to have just ORDERED A FEW YESA CELLS and tested them yourself instead of providing a "cop-out" reply that "the told me they were no good for ebike use"
Sheesh, you didnt have to spend 3,000 bucks guy, maybe 200 and get a couple of cells, so as I said before, all the consumer really has is your good word and YESA Sam's good word AND reputation to choose from.
They can choose for themselves, and will."
YES, now that would make a lot of sense wouldn't it. I should buy my old prototype cells that we rejected over a year ago and re- test them now?????? Maybe the LiFePO4 fairy waved her wand over them since then and they work now LOL!!!! :-)
Cheers!
Don Harmon
I amd referring to 40138 Format Cells which was the original discussion remember ??? Or are you so simple minded you forget what you originally attacked me on ??? I have no interest in testing YESA 50 Ah Cells. Since I know the story behind their 40138 stock, I assume all their other cells are probably suspect too! So would you like me to buy one of each of their cells now and test those ???
Give UP, andybody who reads your replies knows where your coming from now. I will have no further time to play in the sandbox with you sir. And we won't be worrying about YESA either since they have nothing to offer of comparable Format or Quality that competes with the LiFeBATT large format cells.
Thanks,
Don Harmon
Don -
You do yourself a disservice by resorting to petty name calling. No one here is simple minded - opinionated DEFINITELY - simple minded - DEFINITELY NOT.
usatracy referred to two 40138 cell you responded about one. So, what about the other one?
Also, from my point of view I'm not sure what's magic about the 40138 format. So, yes I'd think testing a YESA 50Ah cell would be appropriate if you wish to sell into the larger motor scooter and motorcycle market. Probably not so important for the ebike market.
Please can you explain what's special about the 40138 format versus any other particular format? Does it offer better energy density? Is it more suited environmentally? Or is it just five numbers (that when re-arranged give the zip code of my work address)?
I'm a consumer and I'd like to understand the format concerns. BTW, I've noticed that there are two basic shapes - rectangular versus cylindrical. Is there any significance in that?
chuck - I think your math is flawed (sorry!)
You state $601 for AGMs vs. $1308 for LiFeBATTs and conclude that LiFes are only twice as expensive. However, over half of your AGM cost is non-recurring (i.e. you don't replace chargers, powercheq's or wiring when your AGMs die). So, replacement costs would be around $290.
It's unclear to me if the LiFeBATTs have a similar non-recurring cost or not. From what I've seen I'd say not - when bought in hard packs the BMS stuff is integrated and it looks like they're intended to be replaced as a unit.
Thoughts? Clarifications? Aspersions on my ability to replace a light bulb? ;-)
Well, now I have 2 sets of data. My own experience with the odyssey batteries. And the unproved but published data from LifeBatt. From my reading, I'm pretty confident that the Lifebatt specs are good.
2 more sets of data from usatracy. Life line battery and Yesa battery. Well, I briefly explored the life line website, I was'nt able to find much info on the battery. Just guessing, a midrange agm, these usually have about a 200 to 250 cycle 80% DOD life. Still can't find any published data on the Yesa battery pack of any kind.
Looked at usatracy's analysis, he proved his own point, did'nt prove anything.
One outlay of cash. First time purchase. These are my parameters. I've have pretty much gotten, the real world results, that Odyssey published on the Odyssey battery. One battery failed awhile back, got a free replacement.
How many cycles have I gone. 13 miles a cycle. 3200 miles. That's about 246 cycles. How many miles will I get? My warranty is good. I'll get all those miles and cycles within my warranty period. 400 cycles. Projects to about 5200 miles, rounded off. Should be able to get that milage within the warranty period. Battery cost per mile, $311.73/5200 miles. About 6 cents a mile.
Now, If I buy a comparable LifeBatt, and I get 13 miles a charge, 1000 cycles, lock stock and barrel, That would be about 13,000 miles. Lets say the batteries are worth, $1000 out of my 1308 dollar outlay, then, my cost per mile, just batteries, about, $1000/13,000. That's about 7.7 cents a mile. I doubt, in 3 years, I could put 13,000 miles on the cheetah. I will fall outside of the warranty period.
Probably, not for certain, should get more mileage, and more cycles, from the Lifebatt pack, than is published, I am just costing the warranty mileage here. Others seem to be having very good results with lithium.
Now reading on endless sphere, I hear dump the lead, dump the lead. If I was riding a bicycle, ya, dump the lead, have fun. Thats what bikes are all about. It would definately be worth it to me, $1308, for a Lifebatt, for a bicycle.
The cheetah, as I ride it, weight is'nt a problem, when I get to about 30 mph, would'nt hurt at all to have a little more weight, 56 lbs of lead, not quite enough, not that I go airborn, more weight is'nt going to hurt me any.
I read on endless sphere that lithium is cheaper in the long run. Might be. I'm fairly confident that the Lifebatts are good, not confident that Yesa's are. I have to put my faith in usatracy, that Yesa's are just as good. Now I'm laughing. Really, got a giggle out that last sentance.
When these Odyssey batteries die, I found a battery, AGM, Deep Cycle, 55 amp hour, made by werker, will cost me $106.19 each, need 2, about $212, 6 month warranty. Probably a perfect fit for the cheetah. Cheap, ya, but you get what you pay for. 38 lbs each.
chuck
jdh,
I started the post, had to leave before it was finished, common with me. I don't think my math is wrong, but I'll check it for you.
chuck
jdh,
probably answered your question in the last post I posted.
We could sit here and calculate this to death. I was kinda going on initial outlay and warranty period.
I have no idea how long a bms should last. Cheap chargers don't last long.
For my ride, it looks like, lead is still cheaper, especially, after, the initial outlay. Lithium and lead, high quality, about the same price, initial outlay, (under the warranty period).
If I needed range, I'd go lithium, and a motorcyle. Currently, just don't drive enough, to delve into the range of lithium. I've put 3000 miles on my car and 3000 miles on my cheetah in the past year. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy lithium, when I need it.
chuck
[b]What???? No Warranty on a YESA Pack ?????/ or will they claim customer negligence LOL!!!!
YOUR WORDS:
"So does the YESA cell I spec'd for my packs and referred to in the beginning of this thread that are less than half the cost and 20 times the warranty period.
Why is the warranty period so short ?
These are great cells, if the concern is the end user may damage them via their own BMS charger solution, why offer ANY warranty period, they could damage the cells from day one.
Seems to me that if they are so spectacular and offer such greater performance etc... they would have a longer warranty period.
I have yet to see a cell from YESA that did not have at LEAST 12 months.
These are things people are going to consider when they look at laying out a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money on these cells."
The guy on Endless Sphere is an unhappy camper regardless of making a few honest mistakes. If YESA had a REAL Warranty protection in place they would replace his entire pack instead of charging him piecemeal for sending parts! If they can't do that for one of their first buyers in the US market then I don't think they will be very successful in the long run.
Cheers!
Dh
Sorry, your claim was 5 years or at least 12 months. Typo on my part. But you get my point don't you?
Good night.
DH
ALL the packs I spec'd with YESA use the cells with terminals on them, you should not mess with spot welded packs from anybody, too much hassle if a cell in the middle is bad, or any cell. And when you order from YESA, make SURE to get some extra cells so you can easily replace cells that go bad or are perhaps defective, the postage on a single replacement cell will kill you.
Please explain what kind of terminals you are referring to? I am interested.
Best,
Don Harmon
DUCK DODGE SPIN ATTACK....
DIG DIG DIG
Ok, Haven't been in here for a while, so just gonna jump in!
I bought one of those 'little' 10 AHr packs from the guy that bought two, and then bought a larger pack. So I guess that you could say I bought a second hand pack! (albeit, unused)
Anyway, the pack has been great! Did a distance trial on my bike, and got the full 10 Ahr/240 wHrs from the pack before the BMS did its duty and shut the pack down!
I e-mailed Sam, because I had a query about the pack. He quickly e-mailed back with the answer, and II thought nothing more about it, until I got a second e-mail from Sam, asking how I was going with pack, and whether it was performing to my expectations!
Alls I can say, is that I am impressed!
Will more than likely look at Yesa for a 36 v pack later down the track for another project,
Cheers!
Rob
usatracey, here's the guy from endless-sphere who has reported on the quality of the YESA packs...the one you refered to as the dopey guy, thanks!! I satrted the thread with an open mind for yesa, optimistic for a lasting affordable battery system. Expecting to series connect two 24v10ah battery packs.
The second pack I bought was 48v10ah, so no bigger, was bought because Sam suggested that I should not connect the 24v batteries in series.
I asked Sam for a refund as I wouldn't be able to sell them for more than what I paid for them, why would anybody pay more if they could buy direct from yesa. No harm trying tho!!
After a top-up charge one cell on the 48v pack appeared to have shorted and not from crossing wires, I hadn't installed the pack on the bike and hadn't used it, Sam expressed I could get a new cell for free but would need to pay postage, I'm just hoping this is not going to be a re-occouring issue! The post is not as bad as LifeBatt expressed, for the replacement cell is $30AUD.
Sam then said it would be fine to connect in series the 24v packs.
In my last post I just warned people to be carefull with their packs and some of them appreciated it as some of the parts a flimsy.
I'm havn't asked for a replacement or even asked for warranty, I have just explained to Sam what has happened and he has suggested what can be done.
Sam has also emailed me asking whether I'm happy with the pack, I expressed my concerns regarding the tabs and the exposed BMS.... good that he asks, future packs may be better protected.
ok time for me to jump in here too - (i'm bigh on endless sphere - who would have thought.)
I got my CA today, and did two cycles on both of the 36v 12ah rated packs. I got 10.2ah on one but only 6.1ah on the other - it looks like i have a dud cell causing the bms to trip due to low voltage (as it is supposted to do. I'm currently in communication with Sam regarding a fix to this, i'm going to properly test the pack tomorrow, and confirm how many cells are low.
In all of this i think everyone is getting a bit hot headed. Don is trying to introduce a new product he feels very strongly about, but others here wish to harras and challenge him in all situations. Maybe you don't want a battery supplier involved on the forums? i hate to say it i've only seen one other supplier on the forums, and he made about 5 posts.
Having someoen to give ideas for and feedback on products that clearly does care is important. Does it justify the extra cost? well thats up to you. You could buy a yesa pack (heck i did) but so far i konw of two packs that have had a bad / not perfect cell in them - if you take the risk its up to you. there are many risk to rewards arguments that could be made here.
Remember that lifebatt is NEW in the market - this means a lot - they won't instantly come out with the perfect product, won't have testing data, won't have customer feedback etc, either way its a personal choice.
There is definatly a market for high quality batteries - Dewalt's A123 cells proved this. I think the main reason that you are all getting so off pot is the extra price on top of the yesa cells. give it time though things do change!
Looking at my own situation:
I'd perfer to get a123s, but charging is a problem (i want a decent turnaround time since my commute is quite long, and i intend on running @ high speed). Lifebatts are just out of my price range, and Yesa cells need to be tested by the end user, and as don said, its probably an idea to get a cell or two extra to avoid having to wait if you do have a dodgy cell.
until there are more players on the market, we'll just have to wait.
(someone hurry up and release a single cell A123 charger that runs at 5a or 10a for parallel charging)
There have been several misunderstandings represented here which I would like to clarify. Lifebatt makes the 40138 Large Format Cell which has passed all the testing successfully to be introduced to the market this November. As for the "other" 40138 Cell(s) that we are aware exists - we want to clarify that these are NOT our cells (we happen to know the origin of these) and that we recommend that you test one cell first before investing in multiple cells. Of course we encourage you to also do this with one of our cells too! As a result of this batch of 40138 Cell(s) existing, Lifebatt is changing our cell color and adding graphics which will distance us from this problem. Right now they look alike to the untrained eye, but ours are Red on one end and Black on the other end and have Brass screw posts. The Color of these cell(s) is identical to Lifebatt's! The other ones are White on the ends and have Silver screw posts. There is also NO markings on these other 40138 cells that we are aware of ? The Lifebatt cells are marked "Lifebatt" Made in Taiwan and carry a batch number. The other cells are only available from Chinese brokers, and we are not clear about their warranty, as we have seen no written documentation anywhere other than verbal claims made here by another member of this forum ?
As for our tiered Warranty Program: Attached below are the Warranty cards for the Individual Cells and for the Individual Cells WITH Lifebatt VMS boards. The VMS boards have passed all of our testing and will be available as scheduled in late November with release of our Individual Lifebatt Cells.
Lifebatt will also offer a line of Standard Chargers for 12V, 24V, & 36V with the November offering. Our sole Distributors in the U.K, Australia, and Canada will all have a stock on hand by the end of November, 2007 and will be offering full-service after the sale in accordance with our Warranty agreements. Extra cells and VMS boards will be available on hand with most service problems handled in a matter of one or 2 days without expensive foreign shipping problems.
Best!
Warranty Cards are not reproducing here very well. Look for them in PDF format on our website later today if you are interested in this?
Cell Specs. mean little as we all realize. It will take some time for the public to make it's own determination of the quality & integrity of the various offerings from all LiFePO4 manufacturers. When a new chemistry becomes available to the market the proof is always in the pudding as we recognize. Lifebatt feels it's product will prove itself to be of high quality very soon, and it's availabilty along with matching VMS boards & Chargers from the same manufacturer, will be welcomed by the e-bike community. This, along with local Distribution in the U.S., Canada, U.K, and Australia will give support and after-sales service to a wider global marketplace.
Thanks!
QUOTE: "So thanks to Don for identifying that YLH10438 is his old bad cell."
CLARIFICATION: This cell we identified was never OUR "old bad cell"! What we said was that this particular batch of cells was made in Taiwan (Taichung to be exact) and was offered to us when we were just starting up Lifebatt, Taiwan. We didn't make it and what I said was we considered it as a possible prototype before our tests proved it was not up to our spec. I think that needs to be clarified here as the previous poster makes it sound like we had something to do with it's birth, which we absolutely did not!
As we said above Cell Specs. are Cell Specs. The proof will be revealed in the future performance of these similar looking cells :-)
P.S. Our shipment arrived in Los Angeles and has already cleared customs for OUR 40138 Large Format Cells today.
Thanks!
We believe anyone posting should be granted the opportunity to issue a "clarification" of something they said in a previous post. Especially when taken out of context and mis-represented. I mean even WE didn't say anything when this poster called another poster on here a "Dopey Guy" - then apologized in a subsequent post - then retracted his apology in a third post!
We won't flame him here by cutting and pasting this foolishness. We will stand on our morals and try to be businesslike here. Our QC is excellent and will prove itself in time. For those who may be interested, we invite you to contact us "off post" where we can discuss business in a more civil manner without constant distraction from these tirades.
Thanks Again!
Will you two both knock it off? It seems to be six of one and half a dozen of the other in terms of who's keeping it going at this point.
So, flame baits aside:
1) YESA does appear to have a cell that is equivalent to LiFeBATTs
2) YESA's is $37.50 with BMS and Charger but is from a Chinese supplier - introducing extra delay and cost
3) LiFeBATT's is $55 without BMS or Charger but is from a US supplier - reducing the delay and cost (assuming LiFeBATT keeps enough stock on hand as they both are sourced in Asia)
4) Two or three folks have responded with positive reports regarding dealing with YESA both before and after the sale
5) LiFeBATT is a new company so there's no customer experience yet
I think that pretty much sums up everything known at this point - aside from warranty. I think the warranty question is much more difficult to pin down. So I'm not going to bother to try.
Aside from warranty am I missing any known facts? (Not interested in speculation or hypothesis - thanks).
However, I'm waiting to see what happens with PHET in Q1 2008.
Good luck to all - I want to see lots of choice for LiFePO4 batteries.
We think you summed it up very well jdh. As far as any other "known facts" we would like to attach the following (2) independent tests which were done within the last 30 days on our 40138 Cell. One is from Bob Mcree and the other from Sandia National Labs
Power Sources Development Dept.
Moving on to more exciting fronts!
Great, that's a start my man! Now... Show me the data from other 1996 cycles, assuming the cell lasted that long. I want to see data that tells me exactly what I'm buying. These tests were also
done at a 5amp discharge rate. We are pulling between 25 and 50 amps off of packs in our EV's.
Show me a small battery assembly where you pulled this kind of current for 2000 cycles.
Let me see what your results are. I really do want to see the 200 amp rate for 13 seconds. Someone better stand close with a fire extinguisher though when you perform it! LOL. Could you
get me a developer price on the 40138 cells for like 20 a piece? I'm really am curious about
these cells. I'm also needing to do this before the media and the general public figure out
that oil is a finite resource.
Thanks for the insult btw - it just reiterates another reason i don't come on this forum. Next time i'll make sure i DON'T bother telling the facts of what has happened with my pack.
For the record, Don had NOTHING to do any "finding" me to discredit YESA - i haven't, i support SAM and their product. I don't own or intend to own a lifebatt as i can't afford their asking price, if they later become compeditive then good.
I think you need your attitude checked. My reading comprehension is fine, I wasn't making a personal attack at you. Your attitude quite frankly stinks.
Anyways i've posted my experience with the YESA packs, which other than the small Ah issue (which i'm in the proces of diagnosing) they offer a good product.
Anyways last time i'm coming on this part of the forum, hope we get some testing figures soon!
Still, I'm sure you are welcome to post here no doubt about it.
BiGH - you are absolutely and totally welcome to post here and engage in the community. Just because you have felt displeasure in your relationship with one of the people in this community, why do you think that tars and feathers the whole community?
Deafscooter not buy it ( too risk to fire if battery get failed )
and Very High Pricey for this Li-Ion, LiFePo4 batteries packs
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Use Get AGM batteries for good High Current & Cheap Price
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Can do DOPING the AGM or SLA make three times discharge
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Craig Uyeda
Deafscooter
deafscooter