1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

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JCinStaunton
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I have 2 bikes, both Yamaha 650 XJ's One is a rider, great condition, second I got for a parts bike. last week I decided to convert the parts bike to Electric. I found this kit that sounds nice, 72 Volt Perm 132 Kit with Contactor. On this site http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/parts.htm. Not sure what batteries to use yet as it is just a big empty now, but I figured I could use the gas tank as a box for most of the components besides the motor to help it retain its looks and leave space for batteries. Biggest question is can I use the drive shaft or would I have to replace the whole rear wheel. Im hoping I can either use the universal mount connector from the engine directly on the motor shaft or rig up a sprocket and weild the connector to it and use a small belt or chain to the motor. If I can use a belt there would be no chain sound at all when it is in motion. I dont have a website set up yet, but I have been taking picks of it from start to now with the engine and other do dads off if anyone wants me to email some pics like starter pic and pic with engine off etc. Still have the electrical on it and have found LED light replacements on ebay to help save energy.
I am also thinking of deep cycle batteries from optima http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/ . I am not sure what the packs cost that folks here mention. I might be able to get one of those for the cost of 6 batteries from optima. and maybe it would all fit under the tank instead of using 4 under and 2 saddle bags.

Any help is appreciated, I'm learning fast on this one. Maybe next time I'll try a car conversion. I have a 93 Grand Am that just had engine problems :)

John
Staunton, Virginis

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reikiman
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

Since it sounds like you're just starting out on ... I gaurantee you this will be an 'interesting' journey ... find these books: The Secrets of El Ninja, Convert It and Build your own Electric Vehicle. El Ninja is especially relavent as it goes directly into converting a motorcycle.

However it doesn't discuss shaft driven motorcycles.

A wonderful resource is: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum ... it's full of vehicle examples others have converted and you can contact some of them for advice.

Honda Goldwing SP1? and Converting shaft driven motorcycle? had a little bit of discussion of shaft drives.

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JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

thank ya kindly, I'll take a look :)

Mik
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

JCinStaunton wrote:

Biggest question is can I use the drive shaft or would I have to replace the whole rear wheel. Im hoping I can either use the universal mount connector from the engine directly on the motor shaft or rig up a sprocket and weild the connector to it and use a small belt or chain to the motor. If I can use a belt there would be no chain sound at all when it is in motion.

John
Staunton, Virginis
------------
n/a

Do you know the transmission ratio for the shaft drive?

I have done some calculations re: drive shafts - have a look if you think it makes sense
at http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3056-yamaha-virago-electric-conversion#comment-16869

Mr. Mik

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HOPOIL-AMPS
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

There is a real good document about converting a Yamaha shaft drive bike (I think its a Seca 750)at [www.Endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php]

Go to the section "E-scooter and Motorcycles Photos and Videos" and from there, look down through for "My Daily Communter" by 'Fingers'. It is a PDF document with story and pictures.

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

HOPOIL-AMPS wrote:

There is a real good document about converting a Yamaha shaft drive bike (I think its a Seca 750)at [www.Endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php]

Go to the section "E-scooter and Motorcycles Photos and Videos" and from there, look down through for "My Daily Communter" by 'Fingers'. It is a PDF document with story and pictures.

Very nice job :) I saved the pdf file as reference. I was looking at torque controls last night. looks similar to the belt system you put on the bike. I had been wondering about a belt Pulley System and pictured 4 pullies in my head. one on the drive shaft of the motor one attached to the universal joint and 2 different size pulleys in the middle to change the ratios. either straight across or in an upside down V shape maybe.

You mentioned using wheel chair batteries. If I retain the use of the materials you have and used more powerful batteries. that would increase the range? Speed isnt that much of a factor, I would be happy with 50 mph and a range of 50-60 miles if I can get that together. I was also looking at maybe doing 8 batteries in my head and making a series / parallel wiring to double the amps at 48 volts. Not sure yet if parallel or series would increase distrance. it looks like more stamina and drive time with parallel. Less dishcharge overall. Guess its a trial and error bike for me also. would love less wielding and use of holes and bars already across the bike.

Thank you for the link. My bike looks alot like that one striped down hehe.

John

jdh2550_1
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

Hi John.

Good luck and welcome to the club :)

You can try out this link: http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/toolbox/battery_worksheet.php to get an idea for speed and range calculations. It's set up for a chain driven bike - but you should be able to "fudge it" to give the appropriate gearing for your shaft drive.

I'm converting a CB-750 (waiting for the weather to warm up before venturing into my garage again).

If you don't want the bother of setting up a website then you could start a blog here instead.

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JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

thank ya for the link. looks cool also.
Garage? ooooh that wuld be nicer then the driveway :)

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

I put a picture in here somewhere but not sure where it went. Looks like it will take me a while to figure out the blog LOL, never had one before. But I did enter a pic here of the bike without the engine where it is now. Project is on hold for cash I guess. I tried to get a $3000 loan to get all the parts and have a little left over, but it seems I have no credit history so noone wants to help me get established. /sigh, guess its time for a second job just to play with the new projects. I get 5 days off every other week with the factory I work in, so there is time to make a few more bucks before the weather gets to be really nice and I can ride the thing :) one week I am off wed and thur, next week I work wed and thursday and am off the other days. I'm sure it wont take too long to raise the money with a second job. this isnt gonna help me establish the credit but it will keep the project going. I even told the lady today on the phone by the time I get established bike season would be over and I could have saved up the money in that time LOL. She understood but couldnt help. Gotta love the system. I would be better off with bad credit, at least then people would talk to me. Tho it would cost more in the long run.

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

cool :) still learning my way around. here is the bike waiting for the new electric parts.

edit; I inserted an image with the insrt image at the bottom of this box but dont knw where it went either lol. ah well that didnt work.

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

I did finally get to make a blog :) took me a few tries but it's in there. shows the bike getting stripped down. I will add more now as I go.
Thanks for the suggestions and the links folks. there has been alot of help as I go thru the learning curve.

Jeffkay
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

I had a XJ650 here and looked into the concept. Good news is that the ratio is 4:1. Bad news is the Etek would need a jackshaft. If you do go with the Perm, make sure of the proper rotation if there is one...
Jeff

andrew
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

JC,
Are you still set on that kit? My best guess (without any calculations) is that the gearing will probably be too low for that motor, or not enough reduction, with it directly mated to the drive shaft. The pancake style motors tend to heat up really hot really fast with too many amps. A Few people on the electric motorcycle listserv have had eteks fry due to overheating, which is a similar motor to the Perm PMG132. John Bidwell, the author of El Ninja had an etek overheat in his test bike when geared at a drive ratio of 6:1. The Perm motor does produce more torque (wired for a slower speed), but it is only about 48% more per amp.

Another down side with the Perm is that it is limited to a CW direction of rotation. If you need CCW rotation for the drive, than you are SOL, as the direction can be reversed, but at a much reduced load.

A better choice would be a series wound ADC motor IMO which will be more robust, and capable of taking more amps to produce the torque needed for that drive ratio (3:1?). Series wound motors are more suited for applications requiring high torque and high current, but they are also larger and slightly less efficient. On a positive note, if you did a direct drive with one of these, you could easily get a 65-70 mph top speed. And you'll most likely never have to worry about hitting these motors with amps, unless you got a real high amp controller.

Preferably I would like to see the gear reduction higher, but unfortunately this doesn't appear to be very easy in a direct drive setup. I was thinking a planetary gear system might work, but I have no idea how to set this up properly, nor which one to use.

BTW, electricmotorsport has created a new site and it beats me why they don't put up a new link to it:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store

I highly recommend contacting them for advice. Also contact:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

Not set on a kit but it will make it sooo much easier for me. I cant afford what I want yet and really cant afford too much trial and error with seperate parts. I am learning alot tho and accept all opinions and links etc from you folks.

the link above for the 750 conversion will probably be closer to how I end up going when all is said and done tho. better to do something already done and is working eh?

At this point anything is feasible :) (sounds like something from a sales seminar)

Keep bringing me info. I'll soak it all up.

Also been looking at torque converters. Something like that or just different size pulleys etc. Until something is actually bought Im not committed to any one way to go :)

Looks like batteries can cost almost as much as the electronics depending on how you go also. that hurts. looks like high voltage makes speed, high amps helps didstance. running two serial banks in parallel to get the most I can from the batteries? may keep disharge rate lower and less speed, unless there are enough batteries to really beef it up or really big batteries? hehe depends on how things go as well. I would like to have on board charging as well. I saw the post with the relay that lets the string chargers work in a neat kind of way. I may have to look into something like that as well. I would love to be able to just plug in somewhere instead of setting up to charge. There are so many ways to go with each part of this project. If I get it set up to go 50-60 miles an hour for 50-60 miles, then I can ride it around town and charge up at night, but would be nice still just to plug in and forget. The optima sealed batteries look nice but I will probably have to look at cheap batteries to get going. really would like a sealed battery so I dont have to worry about levels in them or placement.
I like the fairing idea in the posts, Fairings first thoughts, and doing more with less.
that may go on after the fact, and looking at universal hard saddlebags on ebay makes me think I can hide side batteries later on once it is up and running, til then (when I get even more money) they will just have to have rails like some of the other bikes in the evalbulm that we see in other links here LOL.

dang I can get going when I start eh?
Thanks again, feel free to chime in anytime.

John

andrew
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

JCinStaunton wrote:

the link above for the 750 conversion will probably be closer to how I end up going

I hope you are not talking about my bike. I don't suggest you do a setup like mine. Here's some background on my project.

What I liked most about my project was the challenge in figuring out how to do things, than seeing if it would work. I'm still in that stage. I just figured out how to do something really interesting on it (I'll post details in time). But, what I mean is, I never really did my conversion for the finished product. I just really like the challenge in it as a project. And it is an ongoing challenge.

And now I kind of see that this was my interest throughout the project, and what kept me involved. So, I've developed a better understanding of my interests. And here's some thoughts and suggestions from my experience that I can pass on.

I think it's important to understand your goals, and what is motivating you to do all of this, before you take the plunge and spend a lot of money. If you want a finished product that can go 50-60 mph for 50-60 miles, than seriously, just ride your gas bike (and I really don't mean to throw a wrench in your plans!). I'm just being realistic. That would be very difficult to do, even with a huge budget for LiFePo4 batteries. And TBH, I don't really see the purpose in doing that if one had the money. I can ride my gas BMW as fast as I like (or as fast as I would really want to) for as long as I want, and riding it beats the heck out of riding my electric (no worries about energy, just pull the throttle back and relax...). But something keeps me coming back to my electric, and keeps me interested in it.

Maybe its my own geekiness and imagination, mixed with some fantasies about riding off solar energy, idk. Or the fact that it's a unique experience every time I pull back on the throttle hearing the motors energize, and watch people staring like there not sure if it's nuclear powered. :) Maybe its the fact that I couldn't go to a motorcycle dealer and buy an electric bike that has me caught up in the novelty.

Anyway, here's some realistic expectations as a guide.

Realistic range goals are about 15-20 miles with lead-acid batteries for a ride profile of 45-55 mph. If the speed was limited down to <40, than this could probably be stretched to 25-30 miles with enough batteries.

As the speed increases the range can drastically drop off. At mostly 60 mph I can get about 8 miles out of my motorcycle, where I normally get about 10-11. My battery pack is on the light side, and if range was a concern, I'd upsize the battery pack to at least 50 ah at 72v.

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

ah but it is a working solution and why try to remake the wheel. I can drive to work in 12 minutes with the car from here so it isnt an awfully long distance. and yes I like the idea of running around town on a nice day to turn heads hehe.
I have never worked on motorcycles before so it is all new to me. I have done things to cars, like alternators and dropped a tranny once to put in a clutch plate etc, but folks told me what was wrong, I have never been a mechanic. Now if it is computer related I can probably figure it out and fix it. I been playing with these and building them since the first pc's came out and ran a BBS for 6 years when compuserve and genie were just babies.
I am a hands on learning person. I can learn from books or friends, and I am looking into alternate energy now. So I decided to start with something I have and if I can make it I will also be able to fix it when something needs fixing. It will certainly be easier then learning all the parts in the ICE on the other bike, although I am fairly sure that with a book I can take care of alot of it, I just wasnt going to attempt a carb rebuild when I can have a real mechanic do it. Although I did have to go online and get the parts myself since the last shop I took it to said they couldnt get parts lol.
Its in a different shop now and I gave them all the pieces to do the job.

Really I want to learn about alternate energy and its applications. I like the idea of saving money not having to pay ridiculous prices on gasoline. And if I can go 50 miles at 50mph before a charge I will be thrilled. I know that wont happen with the first go round considering the money involved, but it is an obtainable goal. So why not shoot for the moon? I may have different parts when I am done then what is on the 750, but it may look similar since that is a working configuration. If I decide to go with the kit, I may have the pancake engine up higher between the seats with belt going downwards to the flywheels. I dont see the pancake motor sitting directly on the universal joint, that may be too big to go straight on anyways.

It is definately a learning experiance tho :) and I like to get creative. I think alot of the folks who try these are creative. But being realistic, I am sure I will have more of the 40mph and 20 mile range you mentioned when it is actually a moving creation. Thats why I like the idea of high amp batteries, fairing, etc that they talk about here on the sight. keeps the juices flowing. :)

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

just saw a motor on ebay. only thing was it had a shaft out both ends. I put the stats under the motor and drives section so will not repost here. you can peek and see if it might be good or not :)

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

HOPOIL-AMPS wrote:

There is a real good document about converting a Yamaha shaft drive bike (I think its a Seca 750)at [www.Endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php]

Go to the section "E-scooter and Motorcycles Photos and Videos" and from there, look down through for "My Daily Communter" by 'Fingers'. It is a PDF document with story and pictures.

Sorry andrew you have the twin eteks. I was thinking of this conversion when I mentioned the 750. It is closer to what I am shooting for.

John

JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

hmmm I subcribe to freecycle. It's a forum to give away items rather then send them to the dump. I have gotten a couple computers, a table and chairs etc and gave away a couple things also. 2 weeks ago I put a note in for a golf cart motor. was a wanted ad, and there was no answer so yesterday I did a wanted ad for a golf cart :) I stated simply: Wanted: Staunton - Golf Cart
Needed for an electric vehicle project.

Last night when I got home from work I had an answer. fella said he had one that wasnt running and was mine if I wanted it. It is about 35-45 minues from here so I just have to figure out how to get it to my house. The truck was rear ended a short time ago while my girl friend was stopped and waiting to turn in our drive way. So I dont have a trailer hitch anymore. don even have a bumper back on yet. will probably have to use a 2x6 or something.
I dont have a clue what the golf cart is yet, but if it is 36 or 48 volts I can probably work that just to get the bike going until I can raise money to improve it. I guess there would be everything I need on the golf cart to work? controller etc... I dont know if it just has dead batteries or if the motor needs work etc, but I definately can get something going since this was free. I also figure I would save the rest of the cart and maybe come up with a 3 wheeler at some point like riekiman's maybe :) that would be cool hehe. anyways, figured I would update this and after I get it, I can put pics on the blog and see whats salvageable.

frodus
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

so, are you LOOKING for a series motor?

I might just have an extra K91 sitting around :)

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JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

I googled k91 series motor to get an idea of what it is. from what I saw it was 8hp and 72 to 96 volts? might this be what you have? most of the golf cart engines I have seen in ebay etc are 36 to 48 volts so I would definately be interested in something a tad more powerful. would have to wait a few weeks for the money tho, last week the company had a problem with lack of work and it will be 8 days before I can call back and claim a weeks unemployment, and this week we worked 2 days and get the holiday but they shut down again because of the work and said we are shutting down the weekend for the holiday so I lost all my overtime and 3 more days work. with 2 days and a holiday I will make too much to get unemployment for a second week. so I just lost close to $300 more beacuase of the hours :p
I would be happy to work with ya on getting a motor. you would have to hold on to it til I get the money tho.

frodus
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

http://www.evfr.net/synkromotive/components/motors/K91.pdf

thats the curve for it.

http://www.evfr.net/synkromotive/components/motors/K99-4007_O-REV_D.pdf

is the drawing for the model I have. I will be cutting a keyway in it, and trimming the shaft if you want, since I have do it on mine anyway.

its 18hp peak at 72V, with 50ftlbs of torque. 56lbs.

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JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

ok, I can drool a bit hehe. sure fix it up if ya like. can get with me about money etc.
can email me at belphidian@yahoo.com or with private messages here. I appreciate it. this looks great for my project.
thank ya

frodus
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

email sent.... We'll work something out. I want to keep it in the Electric motorcycle community.

*sidenote, i just bought a NICE charger on ebay today... Its a Vicor AC/DC supply*

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Jeffkay
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

Frodus, I have several Vicor supplies...they are great! Which did you get?
Jeff K.

frodus
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

well, I have some plans... but I just bought this:
VICOR PM1-03-48 AC-DC SWITCHER
32A 48V switching power supply 1500W total, 110/220 input AND.... HV DC input (100-300VDC).....

and some (yes, multiple) VI-232 (48V-12V 100W DC-DC's)... so you might put 2 and 2 together :)

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JCinStaunton
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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

Just picked up the golf cart. Lady there thought it was electric. it is a gas powered model :) Its a 1964 harley davidson 3 wheeler. It isnt running and may take a lot of work to restore it. Not sure what I want to do with it yet. The fiberglass body is fine. It needs a sanding and a paint job. Everything underneath is solid but has rust, so it will need to be taken down to the frame and worked on to get it cleaned up and repainted. It has a oil gas mix engine (2 stroke), and the gas tank had gunk in it when I looked, so that needs to be flushed also. It used to run for them, not sure how long its been sitting now. If I restore it, it could be cool, but take an awful lot of time and money I think. There are no shocks on the back axle, but if I use it for a trike, I can strip it to the frame and have alot of room under the body for batteries, motor etc. Its really a cool cart even without seats. Also has a flat tire. It was fun loading onto the truck by myself lol.

HD_Golf_Cart_1.jpg

HD_Golf_Cart_2.jpg

HD_Golf_Cart_3.jpg

HD_Golf_Cart_4.jpg

HD_Golf_Cart_5.jpg

Figure If I use the back half for a trike instead of restoring, I can cut the back compartment so it is a big hole, then cover it so it becomes a big empty box.

I dont have alot of mechanical experiance, but I am always learning so it can go either way. Or I can make it an electric cart and do similar to the back end. Geez it can go all kinds of ways lol.

Another project for the back burner as I put it aside for now and continue focusing on the bike I have.

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Re: 1981 Yamaha 650 XJ conversion

You looking to sell that harley?

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