California sells out to Automakers again on zero emmisions requirements

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andys
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/03/28/zero.emission.ap/index.html

The Fuel cell stuff is a pipe dream. Current electric technology can produce a car with a 200 mile plus range for 20% of the cost of fuel cell cars. But how will big oil make any money off those fully electric cars?

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andrew
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Re: California sells out to Automakers again on zero emmisions

It's not such a bad thing. Their pushing for plug-in hybrids which are a great stepping stone to zero emission vehicles. Full battery electric vehicles really need charging stations everyplace, and we just don't have that. Plug in hybrids are actually much more practical for now because you wouldn't have to worry about range at all.

Here's from the article:

Quote:

The air board said the six largest automakers must sell nearly 60,000 plug-in hybrid vehicles in California while they develop the more advanced technology that will allow mass production of pure zero-emission vehicles.

...

The 12 other states that adopted the California standard are Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, New York, New Jersey, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. Automakers are required to sell 120,000 of the new plug-in-hybrids in those states by 2014, said Tom Cackette, the air board's chief deputy executive officer.

jdh2550_1
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Re: California sells out to Automakers again on zero emmisions

Andrew - I disagree - it is a bad thing and it is a VERY disappointing sell out by CARB. The devil is in the details - you really need to look at some of the fine print on various definitions. It's not so much about the selling of more PHEVs it's more about the fact that the industry has managed to persuade the regulators that FPBEVs (Full Power Battery Electric Vehicles) aren't viable and got CARB to agree despite much evidence to the contrary (i.e. FPBEVs are viable).

I can provide more depth to those statements - but it would take a fair amount of effort. I suggest you read Tesla's letter to the board and then also go to CARB's public forum and look at similar supporting documents from other players. I can dig out the references if you want - but don't have them with me right now.

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reikiman
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Re: California sells out to Automakers again on zero emmisions..

This was just posted to the San Franscisco EVA (SFEVA) list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfeva/message/1717

Quote:

...A CARB tale: Several months ago UCB had this one day summit about EV's and PHEV's. Mary Nichols from CARB was one of the featured speakers. CARB commisioned this really great NEV report and I read the entire thing, its like 200 pages. If you read it you come to one conclusion-that Hydrogen is a never-gonna-starter and the only real world answer is Lithium-Ion batteries. But, in the excutive summary there is this weird paragraph inserted that is pro hydrogen that just doesn't make any sense. At the meeting I asked her why this was and she basically said,...'I work at the pleasure of the Governator and he is pro hydrogen' So it didn't matter what this big long report done by experts said, Arnie wants hydrogen and that's what she is going to push... So agravating.

Then of course at the CARB meeting the big automakers use the excuse that fuel cells aren't ready yet to get the rules relaxed! Why was there no mention of this darn report! Why was there no mention of Lithium ion batteries?

Which reminds me of the a Fuel Cell ride-and-drive event I went to in 2005. At that event the major car companies all had their fuel cell cars on display, there was a small track we could drive them around, and I got to drive about 10 different fuel cell cars. Cool. Along with the cars were employees of the various car companies.

I had this conversation with several of these people.. basically asking, if fool cells are 5-10 years off and they have been 5-10 years off for the last 20 years, it gives a high probability that we'll never see commercial fool cell based cars. On the same hand battery EV's are known right now and could be sold to the public right now and especially there is a very near-at-hand revolution in BEV capability because of lithium battery technology.

Each answered dismissing BEV's and I don't remember quite what they said.. it was kind of a brush-off.

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andrew
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Re: California sells out to Automakers again on zero emmisions

I have to agree that FPBEVs are viable, but plug-in hybrids can gain wider acceptance now due to their versatility. They are a perfect stepping stone. If we could charge everyplace than this may not be true for in-city commuting. But, going from no place to charge, to being able to charge everyplace is a big step. And it's another big step being able to fast charge everyplace.

Here's what I think will happen, thanks to PHEVs. People will drive PHEVs and happily plug them in at every opportunity. In fact, they'll like being able to use cheap electricity so much compared to gasoline. They will want to charge as much as possible, and try to not have to use any gasoline.

Businesses will catch on. For example, a grocery store might install a few 120v outlets for charging to get more business from PHEV drivers. And the electricity will be so cheap, that they will be able to do so for no expense to the customers.

With more PHEVs the demand will be greater for ports to charge.

What's even more interesting, is the limited battery pack size of a PHEV will encourage charging ports more than it would with FPBEVs which need larger battery packs. Not to mention, the smaller battery pack of the PHEV will make the vehicle economical with the battery pack cost.

There will be no worries about range. None of that mess. And believe me, that is a pain despite what EV enthusiasts say, unless you have a very considerable margin of extra. No need to worry at all about getting enough charge. People will love their EVs. Plugging in will go from being a limitation to becoming a huge advantage. Consumers won't have to plug in, they'll want to plug in.

Anyway back to CARB, I realize 60,000 is only 4% of vehicles sold in CA. That's not nearly enough. They need more like 20% minimum. I'll bet though that with gas prices the way they are, people will want to buy PHEVs, and the market will dictate a higher percentage of adoption.

Mik
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Re: California sells out to Automakers again on zero emmisions

andrew wrote:

There will be no worries about range. None of that mess. And believe me, that is a pain despite what EV enthusiasts say, unless you have a very considerable margin of extra. No need to worry at all about getting enough charge. People will love their EVs. Plugging in will go from being a limitation to becoming a huge advantage. Consumers won't have to plug in, they'll want to plug in.

Well said, Andrew!

Now please, everyone, do us a favor and have a look if it really says "SELL" 60000 cars.

Or could they maybe be leased again......

Mr. Mik

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