Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year?

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andys
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Its called the Cityzenn and they claim 250 miles range, 80MPH, and this is on a 5 minute charge

http://www.zenncars.com/

Click on the new cityzenn link.

How come there hasn't been anything about this in the news? If the claims are even half true, where do I buy their stock?

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andys
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Found some more info about the super capacitors they are planning to use. Seems like it could actually be the real deal. Lockheed just bought the rights for use in military applications and has partnered with the company making them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

Not a peep about this in the news, and it could be capable of transforming the auto industry. Imagine if this comes through as promised. Would shake up the entire energy sector / & car manufacturing.

chas_stevenson
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

If the supercapacitors don't make it maybe the Nanowire battery will happen. We can only hope!!!

Grandpa Chas S.

andrew
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

There was an interesting discussion about capacitors including eestore on the endless-sphere forums:
Advanced Capacitor Theory

The Zenn is basically just another EV with EEstore capacitors which will make it revolutionary. My take on EEstore is that they are not about hype believe it or not. They provide details in their patent, and I'm sure they are looking for investors, but given what they have, they really don't need/care for hype or exposure. That's provided they really have what they say. Think on the order of the Holy Grail for energy storage, and that is no overstatement. What we are looking at is not a comparable alternative to using oil for transportation, but a much better one. The ICE could be obsoleted if their claims are real.

The problem with storing over 50 kwhrs in a capacitor is extreme danger. If you've ever shorted a capacitor you'll see what kind of spark even a very small amount of energy released quickly can make. 50 kwhrs in a capacitor is basically a bomb.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

EEStor seems like a legit company - however, they do seem to be having trouble delivering. I believe Zenn products using these energy storage devices were supposed to be available now. I am skeptical that they'll deliver - just because the claims appear too good to be true and there have been a lot of detailed posts describing why it won't work.

I am glad that Zenn is stepping up to build a "city car" rather than a "neighborhood electric vehicle".

I sure hope that EEStor and Zenn both manage to deliver!

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chas_stevenson
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

andrew wrote:

The problem with storing over 50 kwhrs in a capacitor is extreme danger. If you've ever shorted a capacitor you'll see what kind of spark even a very small amount of energy released quickly can make. 50 kwhrs in a capacitor is basically a bomb.

andrew,

I see your point but 50kwhrs stored in a capacitor or a battery bank is about the same. The only difference is how big the flash is. This is kind of a moot point since it only takes 1/2 an amp to kill. You're just as dead.

I think the Nanowire battery which can hold 10 times the charge of existing lithium-ion battery is the direction we need to go. If I understand what they are saying this is still over 5 times as much as the capacitors can hold per volume. (my estimate could be way off)

Grandpa Chas S.

LinkOfHyrule
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

chas_stevenson wrote:

I see your point but 50kwhrs stored in a capacitor or a battery bank is about the same. The only difference is how big the flash is.

Actually, it's very different. I'd much rather have a 1kWhr LiFePO4 bank blow out on me than even a 100Whr supercap. The lithiums will cause all sorts of internal shorting and get hot and vent and such, but the capacitor will literally explode. I've blown up small caps that hold mere thousandths of what even a cheap battery can hold and the results are much more violent. I don't know about the EEStor caps, but if it's anything like any other capacitor, you'd better have some blast shielding between you and it.

Plus these things have a working potential of 3.5kV. HV components are not cheap.

I plan on being one of the early adoptors for these if they come out, regardless. They're just too good to pass up just because I might die. :p

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mrjerry
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next yr

One of a few comments from eestor ceo, I must say it doesn't get much safer than this....

Safety is another concern. What happens if a vehicle packed with a 3,500-volt energy system crashes?

Weir says the voltage will be stepped down with a bi-directional converter, and the whole system will be secured in a grounded metal box. It won't have a problem getting an Underwriters Laboratories safety certification, he adds. "If you drive a stake through it, we have ways of fusing this thing where all the energy is sitting there but it won't arc … It will be the safest battery the world has ever seen."

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=18086&ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&pg=3

mrjerry
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Wonder why you here nothing because, zenn, lockheed martin, and others who have seen the eestor facility all know that this is ready for commercilization. Did you know that zenn announces mar 31st cityZENN with eestor capacitor going into production 2009 street tested, 3 weeks later kleiner Perkins announces 25% investment in Think full electric car crash tested, deliver date 2009. Factory will be built in North America.

Now the last piece of the puzzle, kleiner perkins has to work through Zenn because of their exclusive license agreement with eestor for cars honda accord and smaller to get eestor into an automobile. 1 week later kleiner perkins in two days gets 1.2 billion for green tech, 500 meg for green tech ready for commercialization.... So just maybe all this activity is because eestor will change everything we know about energy...

Does this sound like a company who is developing? you can check all of the internet, this is the only 3 people who publically have seen their facilities and commented on it. notice how consistent the message is.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/10/lockheed-martin-signs-agreement-with-eestor/

Lockheed Martin
Is there a production plan for 2008?
Yes for EEStor. Their approach is when they start manufacturing these batteries, not just the cells, but also the package assembly, they will be in production. If you can get a visit to EEStor they’ll show you their process and everything they’ve got in place to support that.

Engineer
http://greenlight.greentechmedia.com/2008/03/12/eestor-and-more-energy-storage-part-2/

A colleague and respected engineer had the opportunity to visit EEStor recently and left “highly impressed.” Although tight-lipped and preferring to remain anonymous he said that, “The facility goes well beyond pilot, and will support substantial commercial production when it comes on-line later this year.”

Zenn
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=837653
"EEStor's game-changing energy storage technology is in the advanced stages of commercialization",

davew
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

I'd be less dubious if they published their specs. What's the energy density, discharge rate, self-discharge rate, expected lifetime, package size, and so forth. I don't know what it took to impress these guys. A Vectrix or a Tesla powered by EEStor would impress me. Right now there is just a bunch of hype. I hope it comes to be, though.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

MrJerry - here are some observations that counter the enthusiasm of those above folks (just for balance):

- I've seen quite a lot of detailed counter arguments from experts in the capacitor industry. Search for EEStor over here: http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/

- There have been significant delays in supplying Zenn. Any project can run late so it's not that big a deal but I don't think anyone has seen an explanation yet.

- It would be good for EEStor to give a public demonstration of a meaningful prototype. Sure, they don't have to. However, this thing is not exactly a secret anymore!

- The progress reported to date has been to do with making purifying the raw materials - not progress towards turning it into a super-capacitor

- Experience tells us that when something appears too good to be true it usually is. I believe I saw early quotes that said that a 50kWh suitable for use in a vehicle could cost as little as $2500 in large volumes.

Like most folks though I hope it becomes true and I hope that it turns up in affordable vehicles!

On balance - I give it fifty/fifty at the moment (that's not a highly technical analysis just a gut feel!)

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andrew
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Please don't mistake my above post for enthusiasm. I have none. And, I'm really not crossing my fingers either hoping that their claims are true. I simply don't believe anything until I see something real. They either can back their claims up or they can't. What strikes me, is they are not going out of their way to build hype. They just have some far out claims at the moment. And they have some very prominent investors. But, this means nothing really. It could possibly even mean that what they claim to be doing is just a cover for something else that they don't want to leak.

Personally, I'd give them a 10% chance of actually fulfilling their claims. Not very good in other words.

At least they didn't place an add in The Economist.

mrjerry
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Jdh

Thanks for the balance feedback. OK i been researching eestor and zenn since mar 2006..., if I am correct we should be hearing an announcement within a month from eestor Now that Kleiner Perkins has received the funds to move forward to their next green vc funding.

http://tyler.blogware.com/ "Fri 28 Mar 2008"

Dick Weir, founder and CEO of EEStor, told me a few weeks ago that there would be an announcement soon on permittivity of its barium titanite powder, considered a major benchmark that would trigger future payments to EEStor from ZENN, and I can only assume Kleiner Perkins as well.

Richard Weir does not give information unless he knows the results already, do you think lockheed martin signed the contract without this already known. What ever problem they had, and Weir said there was speed bumps along the way, and "THERE ARE NO SHOW STOPPERS".

www.zenncars.com/media/documents/christiansciencemonitor.pdf

"28 Mar 2008"
Zenn announces cityZENN (same day as weir comments above)
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=837653

mrjerry
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Looks Like a Major Announcement is days away

http://www.sedar.com "Zenn"
The Corporation intends to use the estimated net proceeds of the Offering to fund working capital and general corporate purposes, including engineering and new product development, market development for new and existing offerings, strategic partnerships, joint ventures, acquisitions or investments should the appropriate opportunities arise.

also
Now read this
http://tyler.blogware.com/ "Fri 28 Mar 2008"
Dick Weir, founder and CEO of EEStor, told me a few weeks ago that there would be an announcement soon on permittivity of its barium titanite powder, considered a major benchmark that would trigger future payments to EEStor from ZENN, and I can only assume Kleiner Perkins as well.

mrjerry
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

BTW - I am pretty sure the cityZENN is Think City Kleiner Perkins 25% investment in Noth Americal Electric Car. The plan on building a North American Plant, it only makes sense that they have to work thru Zenn exlcusive agreement with eestor. Translation to leverage eestor investment, Kleiner Perkins have to negotiate via Zenn. In case you don't know Zenn got eestor contract before Kleiner Perkins got involved otherwise zenn wouldn't have been in the picture. You can go to Zenn web site http://www.zenncars.com/ and click on the learn menu/history.

Now I understand how Zenn will meet the fall of 2009 cityZenn with or without eestor. If eestor is not ready, they will incorporate lithiun-ion into the produce which think is already certified for.

Here Zenn latest tsx filing as of Fri may 9th 2008,
http://www.sedar.com "Zenn"

cityZENN
The cityZENN is planned to be a 100 percent electric, highway capable, fully certified car, meeting required occupant safety standards in the markets in which it will be sold. The development of the cityZENN would follow the same development concept as the ZENN LSV, whereby a host and OEM partner will be secured, the Corporation's engineering team will lead the "electrification" development, and the Corporation would look to the OEM to fully assemble the end product for the Corporation on an exclusive and "turn-key" basis.

To read the full text click the following link. You must enter "zenn" in the search box then scroll to the bottom of the resulting page and select the "Preliminary short form prospectus - English" PDF file. The information starts on page 5.
-- MORE --

TS
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

I set up an appointment to demo (read: reverse-engineer) a ZENN while I'm in Denver, not this Monday, but the next. I'll post my findings, if it works out. However, my business schedule is a little demanding, so don't hold your breath on me actually getting to that one. It is my understanding that their current line is using Li-ion, and they're not exactly holding their breath on the EEStor, either. Neither is Lockeed-Martin; however, it is mighty interesting that the square-root-of-Dell is all-up-on's. Maybe this hope policy is bleeding over from Barack Obama's campaign into the tech market? ;)

I also sent a (ballsy) email to one Mr. Dick Weir asking when I can have one of these ultracapacitor/battery units for my projects. We'll see if he answers. Again, breath-holding, not a good idea.

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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

andrew wrote

Quote:

The Zenn is basically just another EV with EEstore capacitors which will make it revolutionary

I actually really enjoyed driving the Zenn vehicle (when I test drove it)
I would buy one if the range and mph wasn't such an issue for my daily commute

Think on the order of the Holy Grail

Quote:

"What is your name, what is your favorite color? What is the air speed velocity of an air swallow" :)

TS
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Word. Most cities and many moderately-sized towns in the States grew up around oil-- they're all spread out. Society didn't really expect people to live near their jobs when gasoline was .75 a gallon. :(

But I bet if you put a bridge with that crazy witch from Holy Grail at home, and a landing pad at work, you could get there in a hurry. Return trip could be problematic. Also, given the probably accuracy of being catapulted off a trick bridge... maybe the bus would be safer. ;)

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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

Well, capacitors have been around a while, been using a 0.5 farad and a 1 farad cap in my car stereo system for years, no more headlight dimming! Now maybe I can string some together a strap them to my e-bike? Right.
I don't care if they call it a super-cap or an ultra-cap, if it's not in front of you I call it pure crap-cap. Besides, you still need to power them up and last I checked my house wasn't wired for Kv's. Theoretically this is great, but I don't see any nano-wire batteries either. How strong do you think a nonowire is? You think that will take exessive and prolonged vibration and not short-out? Try riding in Phoenix roads whil you're bumpin a 1600 watt stereo with infrasonic subs! I'm suprised the car even holds together, let alone the battery!
We will see where they are at next year eh? Oh, still in development, suprise....
Just like an EV car, 5-10yrs away for 30 years, hmmmm that's a long decade!

LinkOfHyrule
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Re: Zenn bringing supercapaciter powered car to market next year

dantheman wrote:

Well, capacitors have been around a while, been using a 0.5 farad and a 1 farad cap in my car stereo system for years, no more headlight dimming! Now maybe I can string some together a strap them to my e-bike? Right.

There's a guy here running his solar-powered bike with basically those, just FYI. ;)

Quote:

Besides, you still need to power them up and last I checked my house wasn't wired for Kv's.

Meh. No biggie. If you have a large CRT TV, there's about 30,000V of potential there...

Quote:

Theoretically this is great, but I don't see any nano-wire batteries either. How strong do you think a nonowire is? You think that will take exessive and prolonged vibration and not short-out? Try riding in Phoenix roads whil you're bumpin a 1600 watt stereo with infrasonic subs! I'm suprised the car even holds together, let alone the battery!

They're stupidly strong relative to their size and weight, actually. There'd be no problem using them in a high-vibration environment. Plus, they're all touching, anyway. They're part of the electrodes, so they're all electrically connected to their respective electrode. Their purpose is to let it absorb charged particles (uh...I think it was silicon?) and expand a little without damage. And with that kind of surface area, I don't think discharge rates are going to be a problem.

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