Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

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InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14

I posted a few days ago re: my acquisition of a VOY/Phantom 4/ Sunbird electric scooter for diagrams and advice on how to rehab this thing. I was directed to an online parts source, which was somewhat helpful in that it stated those parts are now unavailable. I also acquired a stand-up, 24 volt, 4.5ah scooter. Neither has a charger, and ordering online is not an option due to my financial situation (i.e., loss of job, impending divorce, kid in expensive lib arts college, credit tanked, yada...) I need help getting both up and running as part of my solution to local transportation beyond the limit of normal pedal bike range (clutch on my car is also dead). I have some background in electronics, but I've spent most of my life as a software engineer. I have to say that most of the resources on this and other forums seem to be geared to those with more background/leisure interest than I, and a couple of other posters (thanks DUIguy!) have. In short, I need solutions that can come from Radioshack/Walmart/KMart/Pepboys. I also need SIMPLE, intelligable diagrams,explanations and resources. This is NOT a hobby for me, and based on casual, unscientific survey of those around me, I gather there will be a groundswell of interest in these systems as basic transportation. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE DIRECT ME TO SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE ELECTRIC UNICYCLES, AND SELF-CONGRATULATORY "AM I NOT THE ULTIMATE HACKER" STUFF? A couple of sites that promised DIY solutions consisted of a couple of fuzzy jpg's, nearly unreadable descriptions, then equally unintellible posts. I'm really in need of quick, cheap, and above all, LOCAL, OFF-THE-SHELF solutions. If this forum cannot help, could someone PLEASE direct me to a more appropriate resource?
Thank you!
I'm done ranting: now to a specific question
1. As previously stated, neither bike came with a charger. I have a number of old laptop chargers. One of the scooters seems roughly equate to an "Extreme X-10". There are two 12Volt, 4.5AH batteries, a "Songle" SLA 24 Volt relay, but no controller. Nothing was connected when purchased, and it appears the previous owner attempted their own "mods". I have a Dell Laptop charger rated at 19.5 Volts, 3.34Amps: can this be used to charge the scooter batteries, because I cannot find a local source that sells replacement parts that don't have a new scooter attached.
2. Can someone PLEASE provide me with a wiring diagram for something like the x-10 and the sunbird?
I would really appreciate some help, because the resources found thus far are just too obscure.
Thanks again

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spinningmagnets
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Joined: 12/12/2007
Points: 295
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

You need to remove the batteries, clean them, and charge them up individually to 12v. The longer they stay in a discharged state, the harder they will be to bring back. If discharged too long, they will be damaged and have to be replaced.

I say individually, because one may be good and the other is too far gone. You can use two 12V chargers if you're in a hurry, or one charger on one battery at a time if thats all you can borrow. As soon as possible.

You can charge them both together with a 24V charger while connected in series (the easy way to charge) as long as they both are in fairly the same condition. if one is bad, it will drag the other down and ruin it.

Dont hook up a 19V charger to a 24V pack, it will hurt them.

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

Okay, this is good info: My conclusion is that the charger value must equal the battery value (i.e., 12 volt, 4.5ah battery must be charged by a 12 volt, 4.5ah charger), is that correct without exception?

My next questions in order of priority (all relevant to the 100W standup scooter, as I will get valuable experience needed to tackle the VOY)
1. Nothing was connected on this scooter, so is there a connection diagram relevant to its equivalent(specs out to an x-10)Description based on what I see-

a. Throttle is just an on/off switch on the right handle bar
b. A "Cutoff" is connected to the brake on the left handle bar
BOTH wires end with no connectors.
c. There was what I've found out is a relay, labled "SONGLE" with a number of connectors going to god-knows-where
My question about this is: is THIS the controller, or is that another component I need to scrounge?
As you can see, a clear diagram would really help.
Thanks

Dave-s
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Joined: 03/10/2008
Points: 58
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

First thing first:
You can charge your battery with any 12v charger, but it is recomended to use a charger that is less or equal to 0.3C of the battery value. i.e if the battery is 4.5Ah, then use a 1.5A (A, not Ah).
If the throttle is a simple on/off switch, then you don't have a controller (the relay is evidence that there is not controller).
You need to find the pinout of the relay inorder to connect it correctly.

This is how I'd wire it up:Wiring.jpg

goodnslo
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Joined: 01/08/2007
Points: 67
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

InTroubleAgain wrote:

I'm done ranting: now to a specific question
1. As previously stated, neither bike came with a charger. I have a number of old laptop chargers. One of the scooters seems roughly equate to an "Extreme X-10". There are two 12Volt, 4.5AH batteries, a "Songle" SLA 24 Volt relay, but no controller. Nothing was connected when purchased, and it appears the previous owner attempted their own "mods". I have a Dell Laptop charger rated at 19.5 Volts, 3.34Amps: can this be used to charge the scooter batteries, because I cannot find a local source that sells replacement parts that don't have a new scooter attached.
2. Can someone PLEASE provide me with a wiring diagram for something like the x-10 and the sunbird?
------------

According to your original questions:
1. you could use your dell charger by putting a 2 ohm resistor in series to your 2 batts in parallel, but considering that your previous comments indicate that you want something easier than the time to fab something; the best response is from a previous post of getting a 12V charger from wallyworld or autozone is on the mark.

2. most wiring diagrams are usually simple block diagrams given to customers based on the connectors going to a box labeled controller or throttle which is not what it sound slike you are looking for. It sounds more like you want to know which wire (not the connection) goes where which is really hard to troubleshoot over the internet without pics. I suggest you get a multimeter and start tracing cables to their respective locations and taking pics and posting. Take pics of the connectors and the wires as they enter the motor and throttle. I will try to keep an eye out for this thread to help you but I do alot of traveling with intermittent web access.

Be forewarned, that scooter will probably never go the distance and speed that you expect even on a good day unless it is modded. To even get it running in stock form, will probably require you purchasing controller parts which you stated you didnt want.

BUT First things first. Take pics and trace wires so that there is a clear idea of what you have available. This does require time simply because of the nature of a forum format.

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

Bingo! This is what I was looking for. Many thanks.

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

Thank you! YOur advice is also welcome. I'm sorry to gripe, but one gets focused on the trivial when "other stuff" is too big. Thanks again to one and all, and anything else that might be helpful will be most welcome. I may try out the alternative 2 Ohm resistor approach as well, since I'm sort of compiling a list of useful tricks that we can all use when the economy starts its final slide under the waves. I'm looking at using the scooters as part of an overall scheme to:
A. Offset the cost of burning gas of any kind
B. Back-ups for pedal power and public transit.
C. Provide a firm, unassailable foundation for my smug social virtue. Always handy when trying to compete against the guy with the new Audi for girl attention.
D. Compile a blog of useful tips and tricks to weather the perfect storms ahead.
I know there is doubtless a forum dedicated to such discussions, but I get the feeling we're going to be looking for new and unique transportation solutions, and firmly believe "BIG BUSINESS" will be the least likely source. It will instead be the garage/weekend inventor who will figure all this out. We need a Wazniac and Jobs for alternative transportation.
Thanks again

DUIguy
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Joined: 05/14/2008
Points: 4
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

I still haven't modified my scooter yet, but it's coming. I looked up the X-treme x-10, and I wonder if it will be any use to you. It's only got a 100W motor. I've got a Blade-z XTR that has 24V 12a, and a 450W motor. I weigh about 230 and it pulls just fine for about 4-5 miles @ 12-15 mph, but that's it. I have an Interstate Battery distributor just down the road, so I went there when mine wouldn't go, and they tested the batteries for me. They could tell by the seriel nums that the batts were 3 years old. Even thought the scooter was brand new in the box, the batts were dead from being discharged too long. They kept them for a couple days trying to "exercise" them to bring them back, but not possible. You might find someone locally who'll check them or even charge them for free, or maybe a small fee. I had to buy 2 new batts @ $40 a piece, but I'm on the road.
Another idea, try to find someone local who sells that scooter or similar size, and try test riding it. See if it's really worth the frustration before even starting.
It's nice not paying $4.50 for a gallon of gas though and I use my scooter in conjunction with the bus for longer distances. You gotta plan ahead though. Once you're out of juice, it's 4-6 hours on the charger till you ride again. I bought a second charger for work, just so I wouldn't have to carry it back and forth. Not a lot of trunk space on a scooter. :)

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

I also have a 500W, 36volt full-size scooter that I'm going to rehab by (I hope) fall. I'm doing the 100watt as a "trainer" to get myself up to speed on the technology, for quick trips, etc. I also want to put together information useful for those contemplating/needing alternatives to gas-powered transportation. I would very much like to put together a guide to locally available retailers who stock both dedicated parts, and also off-the-shelf substitutes that will serve the same purpose. I have nothing against ordering from online sources, but that means use of credit cards in most cases, and that has become a "challenge" for me this past year due to recent life changes. I don't think I'm being unreasonably gloomy with regard to the economy, and my feeling is the credit market may become a more global challenge. We're all going to have a bumpy ride in the near term at least, and I just want the option of walking into a local retailer, paying cash, and walking out with what I need.
So far, I've located a source for UPS batteries that meet specs, and Radioshack stocks the battery replacement for my big scooter in ALL its stores. I have three radioshack locations in easy walking or pedal bike range. Also Harbor Freight Tools (that delightful big kids toy store!) stocks a 12volt, 1.5amp on-board charger designed for SLA batteries for $12.99. Anyone with leads on national, commonly available resources, please forward to me as I want to put a list together for all to benefit from.
Thanks

goodnslo
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Joined: 01/08/2007
Points: 67
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

OT: I feel for you on the credit comments. I call my credit cards imaginary money which ultimately would mean some ppl have alot of imagination. :D lol.

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

Yeah, at first it was a big emotional issue, parting with the I-magical plastic, and I used to travel a lot for work, but after awhile, it was...liberating not having to juggle all that. No, I can't just log on and buy whatever I need for this, or any, project, and it's tedious having to scrounge, but my hunter/gatherer instinct has resurfaced, and I draw some satisfaction from the kind of primitive ingenuity I have to use to get anything done. All this will shake out somehow, and I'll LOL in a few months at all of this, hopefully, riding my electric through the post-appocalyptic MAD MAX landscape of Amerika!

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

I finally found some specifics on my "little" scooter:
It's an MC100E/RS-RL102 electric scooter-
I need to know the following-
Is there a manual?
Does anyone know how this is connected:
mediaCAG3CEY0.jpg
Some of it is obvious enough, but there seem to be "extra" connections that make no sense
Thanks

goodnslo
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Joined: 01/08/2007
Points: 67
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

Still need pics of your cut wires. Also need to know from you what the blue wire is attached to. The connector with the blue wire probably goes to the throttle and the blue wire might go to ground or it might just dangle going to nothing - which is why it is necessary for you to trace it. If it goes to nothing, then the two red wires are in series with the throttle and the brake switch.

But from your pic, the songle controller is probably wired in the following manner.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/slodown27/SongleController.gif

Songle_Controller.gif

1. Trace the wire and find out where it goes.
2. Charge your batts.
3. Check the fuse which should be in line with the batts.
4. Connect up the battery (has the extra connection going to the charger) and motor wires
5. Use a voltmeter to determine if there is voltage coming off any of the remaining connectors.

InTroubleAgain
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Joined: 06/19/2008
Points: 14
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

Okay, this is great! Things are starting to make some sense.
The jpg I posted is from a supplier's web page, and my device has no blue wire, but based on the connector pictured, it looks like it might have gone to another fuse?
This thing was all in pieces when I got it, but your diagram and the picture make some sense. I'm not in reach of my camera at the moment. but I'll kick those over to you tomorrow.
How was your 4th? I went to the Kutztown folk fest: really incredible turn of the century steam and gas technology. Lethal to be around if you didn't pay attention.
Thanks again.

goingreenohio
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Joined: 07/09/2012
Points: 3
Re: Off-the-shelf/cheap/simple solutions wanted!

I HAVE A RED VOY FORSALE ,NICE COND,NEW BATTERIES TWO DAYS OLD,AND HAVE THREE UNDER SEAT,HAS ALL PEDALS,CHARGER AND PAPERS,RIDES GREAT

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