How about a Hybrid Scooter?

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billremnant
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Scooter Hybrid: Gas and Electric

I was thinking about this the other day, while I was contemplating the idea of getting stranded on my e-scooter and having to push the that all the way home.

It would be nice to have the gas as a backup in case of something going wrong with the batteries or something along those lines.

A little 4 stroke motor like this one http://www.duropower.com/item.asp?PID=87&FID=3&level=1 hould work. And it would only add another 8 lbs to the weight of the scooter.

hybridescooter.jpg

So what would be needed is:

1. A clever way to mount it and integrate it along with the electric engine.
2. Rig a control mechanism near the electric throttle.

Problems I see:

1. You wouldn't want the electric and gas engines on the same chain drive/belt drive due to the physical resistance they would place on the drive while one is being powered and the other is dormant. (my electric engine puts considerable resistance on the drive whenever I have to push the thing around on my own power)

2. Adding 10 lbs... what will that do to the overall range of the electric setup?

Has anyone attempted something like this for an e-scooter?
I'd be interested to see what the results were.

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reikiman
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

Scooters are a bit small and I've never heard of someone using a portable generator like you suggest.

However .. The Zero Carbon Car is a book about what it would take to build a car with zero carbon footprint. The author built his own hybrid electric car to act as a testbed. It's a normal electric car w/ an on-board 10kw marine diesel generator which he fuels with biodiesel. A little different in scale than what you're discussing but demonstrating that you're on the right line of thinking.

Another example: Porsche Had World's First Hybrid 100 Years Ago Dr. Ferdinand Porsche's first car was a hybrid electric nearly 100 yrs ago. Just goes to show that there's nothing new about those new hybrids.

Have fun

Edit: I just noticed the thing you linked to is just a motor. If you want to use the motor to directly drive the wheels that's one kinda hybrid. If you want to do a generator to charge the batteries while riding that's another kinda hybrid.

Four stroke is a good idea because they're much better about poisonous side effects (less "pollution") than two strokes.

Honda makes small portable generators out of tiny four stroke engines.

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sparc5
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

I've been thinking about this too. You could make a pusher, and possibly charge the batteries simultaneously as mentioned above or

1) Get a quiet as possible electric generator, some I came across on my Google adventures run on multiple fuels like Natural Gas, Liquid Propane Gas, or Gasoline (I've been running my gasoline lawn mower on propane for a couple of years now without incident).

2a) Build a battery charger circuit. That runs off the 120V output of the generator. Preferably a bank charger if you have the batteries in series.

or

2b) Go to an alternator repair shop and have them wind an alternator for the voltage your scooter uses. The new alternators have the regulator built in, it's not hard to find the old kind though. You'd build the diode rectifier and then make the regulator: If the battery voltage drops the regulator would detect this by it's connection to the battery. The regulator would allow more field current to reach the rotor of the alternator which increases the voltage to the battery until the desired voltage is reached. A battery equalizer would be a good idea if your batteries are in series.

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-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-Headway 10Ah LiFePO4 cells 24S2P, pack in parallel once the item above is ready.
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Buckeroo Bob
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

This may belong in the large scooter category, but Piaggio, makers of Vespa are going to offer hybrid scooters in the near future.

Vespa Unveils Two Hybrid Scooters

HyS scooter
Retro Thing's 2006 April Fool's post gave the low-down on a mythical Vespa hybrid scooter. In a strange case of reality echoing fiction, Vespa's parent company Piaggio is now testing a couple of prototype HyS hybrid gasoline/electric scooters in Milan.

BatteriesThe company has developed two versions, based on their Vespa LX 50 (shown above, with 50cc gas & 1000W electric motor) and the more sleek and powerful Piaggio X8 125 (125cc gas & 2500W electic motor). The combination of electric and gas engines provides approximately 25% more power, helping to alleviate fuel consumption when starting or accelerating. It also reduces gasoline consumption by 20%. The scooter can also operate in locations where combustion engine fumes would be undesirable (inside buildings or covered areas) by switching into a low-speed "electric only" mode.

Sleek The vehicle can charge its batteries from the gasoline motor while traveling at normal road speeds. It can also be connected to a standard 220V (European) household plug to recharge the electric cells in about three hours. Plugging in your scooter reduces operating costs by about half, versus the gasoline only version. Two 12V 26Ah batteries are located under the LX 50 HyS seat, where riders usually store a helmet (the added rear luggage pod is intended to replace the lost storage space). The X8 includes three 12V 26Ah batteries while still offering sufficient under-seat space for a single helmet.

[Update: Geoff emailed a link to 2strokeBuzz, which has lots of nice photos of the LX 50 HyS and the Piaggio X8 HyS. Looks like a great scooter site, too.]

chas_stevenson
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

Here is an option I ran across. It says you can charge the batteries while running the gas motor.
Link: http://www.staton-inc.com/Details.asp?ProductID=3320

Grandpa Chas S.

sparc5
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

Good find, now if they only made a 60V version.

__________________

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-Headway 10Ah LiFePO4 cells 24S2P, pack in parallel once the item above is ready.
-KEB72801 300A 72V 8.0KW (Enormous EV grin)
-DPDT relay to use throttle to control regen and to invert break/kickstand input.

dogman
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

One day I threw my 65 lb honda generator and a 4 amp 36v charger in my trikes basket just to see what would happen. Results, range increased by 30% but could be infinite with a bigger charger. Speed was cut from 22-23 to 14-15 mph. I was using about a tenth of the capacity of a 800 watt generator, so a bigger charger and a smaller generator would actually work. I still concluded that I'd rather carry 65lbs of lifepo4 than a noisy stinking, polluting generator. By the time I ran down 80 ah of lifepo4 my butt would demand I get off for at least 8 hours. I rode a bike yesterday with one of those kit moped gas engines on it. Worked ok, but the vibration was murder, and it was slower than my BD36. No expensive lifpo4 there so there are tradeoffs. Guy said he was more likely to have the gas get stale than run out. The way that thing vibrated I could see what he meant.

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billremnant
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

I fired up Google Sketchup and did some preliminary designs.

hybridsketchup1.jpg
hybridsketchup2.jpg

This design is close, but flawed. I want have a design where the e-motor will not put resistance on the gas motor ... and visa versa. This design would theoretically work when it came to removing any resistance from the gas motor while the e-motor is running, but it won't prevent the e-motor from putting resistance on the gas motor.

What might work is if I had 2 large sprockets on the drive wheel and had 2 separate chains with one way sprockets placed strategically.

tropmonky
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

I saw one on Ebay just a day or two ago!

billremnant
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

I'm thinking I should just start with something small to see if my idea of having a sprocket clutch would work.

If I could just remove the resistance that the motor currently puts on the drive chain when dormant, that would be a real battery saver (allow for longer coasting, etc). Plus I could push it around a little easier if I did have a battery go dead on me.

Anyone have suggestions as to what I could use? I thought about just one of those sprocket clutches off a go-kart. It would take a bit of doing to fit it into the system.

I'm open for recommendations :)

billremnant
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

Anyone know where I could get a specialty Free Wheel hub/sprocket (it's the same technology that is built into 10-21 speed bicycles).

I want to install this first into my x-600 so the electric motor will not put resistance on the drive wheel when I'm coasting (and in the future, it won't put resistance on the gas motor when I go hybrid).

So I have 2 sprockets. A tiny 1 inch diameter one off of the motor shaft and then the larger one (about 5.75 inches diameter) that is connected to the wheel hub. The chain I have has 1/4" links

I don't think I could find a free wheel sprocket as small as 1 inch in diameter, so I'll probably have to get around 5.75 inches.

Thanks for the input :)

hashraf
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Joined: 07/17/2008
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Re: How about a Hybrid Scooter?

Greetings,

If you are interested I just completed my Hybrid Scooter project. I am currently testing and optimizing it. I can answer some of the questions that few of the posters have raised.

http://members.aol.com/HAshraf/hybrid_scooter.html

website is still under construction.

Regards

Haris

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