Charging Software Release Oct 08

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pyjohnson
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Joined: 03/20/2008
Points: 71

Just had a Vectrix Tec update my charging software to the newest release, I presume it's the oct 08 release that a few people have heard about. I was getting other work done on my bike and it was updated while he was here.

There is a slightly different charging sequence

CP for varied amount of time, as before
TR for 15 min, as before
CP again for about 1 min
TR again for 15 min
CP again for about 1 min
TR again for 15 min
CP again for about 1 min
TR again for 15 min
CC for varied amount of time, now shorter than before
EC for 60 min

Over all charging time a bit longer, may be 20-30mins for a full charge

The bars now go up to 13/17 during CP and the final 4 bars appear during CC mode

Only done a few charges so far so don't know what difference it will make from day to day running

__________________

Regards,
Peter

-----------------------------------------------------------
Central Scotland

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Mik
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Joined: 12/11/2007
Points: 3727
Re: Charging Software Release Oct 08

pyjohnson wrote:

Just had a Vectrix Tec update my charging software to the newest release, I presume it's the oct 08 release that a few people have heard about. I was getting other work done on my bike and it was updated while he was here.

There is a slightly different charging sequence

CP for varied amount of time, as before
TR for 15 min, as before
CP again for about 1 min
TR again for 15 min
CP again for about 1 min
TR again for 15 min
CP again for about 1 min
TR again for 15 min
CC for varied amount of time, now shorter than before
EC for 60 min

Over all charging time a bit longer, may be 20-30mins for a full charge

The bars now go up to 13/17 during CP and the final 4 bars appear during CC mode

Only done a few charges so far so don't know what difference it will make from day to day running

------------
Regards,
Peter
-----------------------------------------------------------
Central Scotland

That is not new software behaviour, but it is an exact description of what happens when the battery is fuller than the electronics expect. A "Recharge after BaLPoR".
In other words, it's due to the new battery they put in, not the new software!

It will revert back to normal once 17/17th have been reached once.
You might also have noticed that the temp increased during the CC cycle.

The charging voltage reached 153V when the display shows less than 16/17th, then it tries again four times, then goes to a shortened CC, tr, EC.
It sometimes severely heats some cells in the process, the ones that are already full to the gills.

That can be all of them if the pack is balanced, or one or a few, like the cell that died in your recently replaced battery. It had reduced capacity, probably from being located in the bottom layer with increased heat exposure. Then - once it gets bad enough - it gets reverse charged and overcharged and dies rapidly.

If it's affecting all cells it is not too much of a problem, because the charger recognises the overvoltage and gives up on CP charging after 4 attempts.
But a single bad cell will not push the voltage up enough to be noticed, so it gets overcharged at 10A and vents and dies.

Did you do a deep discharge including BALPOR before this charging event you described?

Do not do deep discharges early on, you might cause cell damage to cells with lower SOC due to increased self discharge.

Do multiple shallow discharges and full recharges first to give them time to balance.

Do not do deep discharges after the scooter has been standing more than a few hours after charging, ever, because different self discharge rates between cells make reverse charging of the lowest SOC cell more likely then.

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pyjohnson
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Joined: 03/20/2008
Points: 71
Re: Charging Software Release Oct 08

Mik wrote:

That is not new software behaviour, but it is an exact description of what happens when the battery is fuller than the electronics expect. A "Recharge after BaLPoR".
In other words, it's due to the new battery they put in, not the new software!

It will revert back to normal once 17/17th have been reached once.

I will keep an eye on the charging and let you know

Mik wrote:

You might also have noticed that the temp increased during the CC cycle.

The charging voltage reached 153V when the display shows less than 16/17th, then it tries again four times, then goes to a shortened CC, tr, EC.
It sometimes severely heats some cells in the process, the ones that are already full to the gills.

Only by 6DegC

Mik wrote:

That can be all of them if the pack is balanced, or one or a few, like the cell that died in your recently replaced battery. It had reduced capacity, probably from being located in the bottom layer with increased heat exposure.

In Scotland?

Mik wrote:

Then - once it gets bad enough - it gets reverse charged and overcharged and dies rapidly.

If it's affecting all cells it is not too much of a problem, because the charger recognises the overvoltage and gives up on CP charging after 4 attempts.
But a single bad cell will not push the voltage up enough to be noticed, so it gets overcharged at 10A and vents and dies.

Did you do a deep discharge including BALPOR before this charging event you described?

Do not do deep discharges early on, you might cause cell damage to cells with lower SOC due to increased self discharge.

Do multiple shallow discharges and full recharges first to give them time to balance.

Do not do deep discharges after the scooter has been standing more than a few hours after charging, ever, because different self discharge rates between cells make reverse charging of the lowest SOC cell more likely then.

I'll see how I get on in the next few days

Update:-

Mik wrote:

It will revert back to normal once 17/17th have been reached once.

And it did!

__________________

Regards,
Peter

-----------------------------------------------------------
Central Scotland

pyjohnson
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Joined: 03/20/2008
Points: 71
Re: Charging Software Release Oct 08

Mik wrote:

Do not do deep discharges after the scooter has been standing more than a few hours after charging, ever, because different self discharge rates between cells make reverse charging of the lowest SOC cell more likely then.

When would you reccommend deep discharges be carried out?

__________________

Regards,
Peter

-----------------------------------------------------------
Central Scotland

Mik
Mik's picture
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Joined: 12/11/2007
Points: 3727
Re: Charging Software Release Oct 08

pyjohnson wrote:
Mik wrote:

Do not do deep discharges after the scooter has been standing more than a few hours after charging, ever, because different self discharge rates between cells make reverse charging of the lowest SOC cell more likely then.

When would you reccommend deep discharges be carried out?

Mik wrote:

If I had a new Vectrix I would NOT try to do deep discharges early on.

I would ride it a little bit at a time, only until the battery display is down to 15/17th. (About 5 to 10km.)

That would allow it to go into CP charging mode for a short time when plugged in, followed by an hour or so of CC charging and 59min of EC charging.

That would allow any low-charge cells to gradually catch up, whilst the fuller ones would heat up only a little bit.

I'd do that a few times and gradually increase the range. Each time I'd recharge fully including the trickle charging modes as above.

I would try to reach a power point (and use it!) at the same moment that a slight performance reduction is first noticeable (stay very close to home in other words).

Once the distance at which a slight performance reduction is noticeable does not increase any longer between recharges, I would start the first "deep discharge cycle".

This is all geared towards equalising the 102 NiMH cells' charge state, before risking reverse charging of a cell in the string that might have self-discharged quicker than the others for some reason.

This also applies to new batteries, of course.

I don't think I would do deep discharges on purpose at all any more. It is plainly unsafe to ride around like that and takes ages to do.

When performance drops, slow down as much as you can and try to make it to a power point.

__________________

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