My XM-5000li Experience

226 replies [Last post]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 347
Re: The XM-5000li Charger

Right guys I know the specs now say 21 cells but I saw a picture of the battery box of a 5000 and you could see it had 24cells so they must be making them. Just hoping I guess. That would put you about 85v thats what I'm running in my 3500li. With the TSL60-20 charger that would put you at 3.62v per cell with 24cells. The pictures also showed a battery montior mounted to the left handlebar. Did they come with that?.With the heavier windings in that motor I would think it could handle a alot more than 3.2v more. Does anybody know what the motor and controller are actually rated for? Regen Braking? Thats easy to do I don't know why they are not using it. Since these are likely to be used for alot of "around town" stop and go driving I think it makes sense. Anyway I'm still hoping for some good news because I would be eager to buy one if they are worth it. By the way that charger connector in the picture is the same as my TSL40-15 that I ordered. When your warrenty is up you could add the three cells get the TSL60-20 and you'll be at 3.62v per cell)and get about 5 more mph and have half the charging time. I charge my 24 cells in about 2.67 hrs just like they claim.
1127 klm and and going strong.
Bill-

__________________

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycle Analyst mounted in 48v Lipo 30AH battery Box. 16kw in an 89lb. Trike! O-54mph/5sec

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
XM-5000li - Braking Systems

I see no mention of Regen Braking for the 5000Li in the specs, on the web site, or in the manual.

Also, I do not see ABS brakes on the 5000Li - it just looks like independent hydraulic disc brakes, front and rear. The included (color) manual does not specify or mention ABS either.

In Contrast:
I thought I originally saw Regen Braking mentioned somewhere associated with the 3500Li. That is one of the features that got me interested in the X-Treme scooter, but I cannot seem to find it now. Maybe it was a "myth" that got removed?

Does the 3500Li have ABS in front? The web site specs say APS ("... With front and rear ABS hydraulic disk brakes"), but the manual I have (might not be current) does not seem to mention ABS at all.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
The XM-5000li Batteries

The top level has one set of batteries in two rows of three 60 Ah TS LFP batteries (6 cells). The bottom level appears to be the same width, so the bottom set must be 5 rows of three (15 cells).

It looks like the bottom set extends about 1.5 rows to the rear of the top set (I am not sure), so it would then extend about 1.5 rows to the front of the top set as well.

It looks like it is not trivial to access the batteries to attach a BMS. The top set needs to be removed to access the bottom set.

For those already thinking of "mods", one could one fit in another row of three cells on the top level (24 cells total) if one gives up some of the underseat compartment. However, the controller (and motor) might not be able to handle the extra voltage.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 347
Re: The XM-500 0li Batteries

I just found where I saw those pictures. It was on this website. I would post a link if I knew how but it's toward the bottom of the I just got my xm3500li thread it was posted by Mountain Chen. It shows six sets of 4cells all mounted in the bottom of the box. Also shows a BMS. I don't like the sound of the way those batteries are in there. They made sure you can't tell from the side if it's a 5000 because they took the pictures so you can't see if it's got that big controller hanging out there in the breeze.
Bill-
PS That motor and controller should easily handle that. The only problem will be that the LVC will be to low so hopfully it's programable, otherwise we're in the stone ages here.

__________________

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycle Analyst mounted in 48v Lipo 30AH battery Box. 16kw in an 89lb. Trike! O-54mph/5sec

zarlor
Offline
Joined: 07/03/2008
Points: 146
Re: The XM-500 0li Batteries

Gary, the regen braking was originally part of the advertised specs for the XM-3500Li, but was pulled from the description once it was determined that they didn't have regen on them. Supposedly it can be turned on in the controller somehow. I think the issue cam up, though, that regen on this type of vehicle probably makes very little difference. It would certainly provide some level of and "engine braking" feel and slow the bike down when applied and thereby charge the batteries a small amount, but conversely without regen you can coast farther (with the engine off, you're not drawing any power.) So from what I was reading on these forums the consensus seemed to be that regen really wasn't all that useful to have on this size vehicle. Others here are probably a lot more knowledgeable about that than I am, though.

__________________

Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA

AndyH
Offline
Joined: 06/04/2008
Points: 126
Re: The XM-500 0li Batteries

I thought that might be what you were talking about, Iccarus. That's one of Mountain Chen's bikes. The display screen is one of the BMSs that Thunder Sky has on their site: http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp?fid=84&fid2=85

I don't believe the 5000 comes from the same factory the 3500 rolls out of.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
The XM-5000li Motor-Controller

So far, there seems to be little information on the 5000Li's motor-controller or its capabilities. No information came with the XM-5000Li itself.

If regen was to be used, the braking effect should be progressively increased as the brake levers start being moved, not some "fixed" level of braking applied automatically while "coasting".

A 100-amp spec is mentioned for the 5000Li on the web site, but there is no spec in the manual. The 100-amps (100 x 63 = 6300 watts) into the (they say 6-phase) motor-controller makes sense for driving a 5000-watt motor. Note that the "Volts" spec for the 5000Li still lists 60 volts, not 63, which would seem to more nearly correct (around 79% efficiency).

Likewise, I see that 60 volts and 70 amps is now listed in the 3500Li web site specs. The 70-amps (70 x 60 = 4200 watts) into the motor-controller makes sense for driving a 3500-watt motor (around 83% efficiency).

Both "Amps" specs are up from the 60-amp "spec" value of about a week or two ago.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
The XM-5000li VIN Locations

There is one obvious VIN (5XWMRE0579N000zzz on mine) on a plaque that is riveted to the outside of the right side of the battery box. It is easy to see, even from a distance.

This plaque also has the manufacturer name (Alpha Products International), the date of manufacture (11 Nov 2008 for mine), and the Federal (Safety) Certification Label verbage.

Harder to find, the same VIN is also "stamped" into a left-side frame member. Opening the locked charging-access door, look on the top side of the tublar frame that passes by the left side of the compartment.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

AndyH
Offline
Joined: 06/04/2008
Points: 126
"Getting to Know You..."

Iccarus wrote:

Right guys I know the specs now say 21 cells but I saw a picture of the battery box of a 5000 and you could see it had 24cells so they must be making them.

Just in case there's any doubt...

pack_out.jpg

5000li_pack.jpg

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: "Getting to Know You..."

AndyH - lovely picture! Best so far in fact (after all it looks the same as an XM-3500Li or EVD from the outside)

But, what's with the extra "empty looking" single cell in the top right of the lower picture?

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

chizno
Offline
Joined: 01/10/2009
Points: 2
Re: "Getting to Know You..."

To the lucky riders there of the new XM-5000Li - is anyone interested in making a few videos of this moped for our blog at wattcycle.com from a rider's perspective? I really feel that people are looking for good information on these amazing new bikes, but there isn't much out there as far as good videos go. I'm looking for something that we would have the permission to drop onto our Youtube/Vimeo/Blogsite that has a walkthrough, feature review, rider's review of your new moped. Maybe some pointers to getting started, how to successfully own this moped.

It's my view that the more information out there given by the actual owners of a product instead of the marketing department the better. I'd really love to have truthful, insightful, and informational videos (of good quality and no profanity).

Is anyone down for something like this? Thanks!

You can email me about this at chad@wattcycle.com

Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 347
Re: "Getting to Know You..."

Right Andy, I guess those are pictures of a newer version of the 3500. I just wanted to say that when I ordered my 4 extra cells fromm elite I thought I would get 4 lonely looking batteries like the one in your picture. I was very happy when they all came strapped in to a pack form like those in your photo,already joined in series and every thing. I took a piece of the foam packing material they used in packing (good quality stuff) gorilla taped it to the bottom of the pack and mounted it right in front of the seatbrace. The cargo pod still easily fits right in. I moved the circuit breaker and zip tied it to the seatbrace right below the two bolts on the left side of the seat brace. Then you can just leave the screws out of the cargo pod and slip it in and out in seconds. I should take some pictures but I don't have everything I need with me as I'm on vacation. I have attached individual leads to all cells and monitor them using commonsense rc balance pro cards. These cards balance the cells but work very slowly as they are made for smaller batteries. But they are good for monitoing on the run. I had them under the seat but then moved them where I can glance at them while riding.(in front of the glove box) As posted on this site by Zarlor the batteries after charging can be fairily out of balance(most about3.38to3.40v some up to 4.20) but if you take a fast run of a half mile or so they are usually well balanced then. Thanks for the pictures and info.

__________________

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycle Analyst mounted in 48v Lipo 30AH battery Box. 16kw in an 89lb. Trike! O-54mph/5sec

Iccarus
Iccarus's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 347
Re: The XM-500 0li Batteries

Lenny, Your right it should be easy to enable regen if the controller has the circuitry in it. I have to disagree with those who don't think it's worth it though. I have an electric bicycle with regen, when you pull the right brake handle it kicks in and then gets a little stonger as you hold. I hardly ever squeeze hard enough to use the brake pads anymore because I anticipate further ahead and brake a little early, this will help the life of the marginal(though better than I thought from what I've read)brakes.(pads mainly) Plus every little bit helps. It's like not keeping the change when you buy something. Why wouldn't you?

__________________

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycle Analyst mounted in 48v Lipo 30AH battery Box. 16kw in an 89lb. Trike! O-54mph/5sec

AndyH
Offline
Joined: 06/04/2008
Points: 126
Re: "Getting to Know You..."

jdh2550_1 wrote:

AndyH - lovely picture! Best so far in fact (after all it looks the same as an XM-3500Li or EVD from the outside)

But, what's with the extra "empty looking" single cell in the top right of the lower picture?

Hi John! The cell case (and some rubber sheet)is a spacer between the 'forward' and 'aft' packs. The front section of the battery box is about 1 1/2 inches lower - the box 'breaks' at a frame cross-tube. Andy

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
My First e-Ride

Finally, I found a helmet (Shoei TZ-1) that seems to fit me well, and I got to go for a first ride. I set the "speed" switch ON for Economy (low speed) mode, and turned ON the "ignition" switch. There was the immediate familiar high-pitched whine of the turbines gaining speed ... oops, no, actually no sound at all, not even a "click". Just a red light on the "dashboard" (instrunent cluster) that is not explained in the manual. Apparently this means that the scooter is ON and that the 12-volt system is working.

I twisted the throttle a little and nothing much happened. Maybe I should have waited a couple of seconds, but (somewhat stupidly, due to inexperience) I added more throttle, and it jumped forward! Fairly quickly I learned to control it better, and covered I about 4 miles going up and down some various hills around my house.

On one 2-block long upgrade I hit 30 mph, and I am a big guy (about 265 lbs without the boots, heavy jacket, helmet, and gloves). Yep, in CA that is all we have to wear, and only the helmet is actually required (grin). After all, it was a bright 82-degree CA winter day.

Tomorrow I go for my second day of Motorcycle Skills and Safety Training - a VERY good thing for any rider to take (see the Motorcycle Safety Foundation at www.msf-usa.org ).

No X-Treme "repair tickets" yet for anything. Good work, X-Treme!

However, when I had the scooter up on the center stand, I tested the motor and spun the rear wheel and I did notice a substantial vibration that seems like the rear wheel might be out of balance. I did not notice any vibration while riding, but I was too busy learning to notice anything subtle.

All seems Very Good so far.
More later.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
The XM-5000li Battery Pack Wiring

The batteries are combined 3 cells to a "3-pack" and there are 7 of these 3-cell packs. The wiring of these "packs", at least on one XM-5000Li is as shown below. Warning, your own experience may vary.

BatPos-04a.gif

The standard wiring chart is useful for checking the individual cell voltages to see if the cells are balanced.

WARNING: Adding a BMS requires wiring to each cell, but the added (very much needed) wiring and circuitry might void the X-Treme warranty.

I feel that this is an area that is critical for long life of the batteries, and I hope X-Treme will address this issue in the very near future.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
Registering the XM-5000li

Update: Inspection and Registration Completed!

With an 11 mile "ride" on my XM-5000Li round-trip to the DMV, I got the 5000Li inspected, the two VINs found, and the Motor number found. Then, more waiting, and I got the Registration, the Year (2010) and Month (Jan) tags, and a License Plate.

With the new Engine Number already stamped on the rim of the motor hub, it all went smoothly. Congratulations, X-Treme (really Alpha Products Intl.) for getting a Motor Number on the motor - that saved an entire day (one CHP and one extra DMV session)!

Along with Name, Address, VIN, Engine Number, License Number, etc.
the Registration says:

Make: ALPHA Year Model: 2009
Type Vehicle Use: Motorcycle
Body Type Model: MS (Motor Scooter)
MP (Mode of Propulsion, or fuel type): E (Electric)

And, some fields with unknown meanings:
MO: QN Type Veh: 240 Type Lic: 21 CC/ALCO: 30

----- Previously -----
Only the DMV physical inspection of the XM-5000Li remains, with the DMV trying to decide how to classify this "motor driven cycle".

I will try to go for a full freeway-legal (electric) motorcycle rating. However the low 1.9 (possibly incorrect) horsepower specification on the MCO might be a problem. Shouldn't 5000 watts be something more like 6 hp?

Any suggestions here?

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
Manual Cell-Condition Checking

Thunder Sky says that each cell's voltage should be checked, even before first use. After that, one should be able to re-check the voltages occasionally, in some quick and easy manner.

CAUTION: You should NOT try this unless you are SURE that you know what you are doing. It is DANGEROUS. Also, it might affect your warranty.

1. Two connections (to the battery pack's positive and negative sides) are needed, and they are already available where the Charger connects to the pack.

2. Twenty other connections are required, to the inaccessable positive side of the "bottom" 20 cells.

3. Through fuses, these lines can be used (carefully) to measure each cell's voltage.

4. To make the measurements easier, a 22-position (21 cells and OFF) 2-pole rotary switch can be used. Or, two 12-position switches could be used.

5. A simple 0 to 5 volt meter can be connected to the switch to read the selected cell's voltage.

6. If one notices that a cell is too high, it could be discharged somewhat to "balance" the cells.

7. Likewise, a "too low" cell could be charged, again, to help balance the cells.

This simple addition would allow "normal" people to occasionally check, and better maintain the health of their battery cells.

I will look for suitable parts just in case somebody wants to build one.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 446
Re: My XM-5000li Experience

hi gary don't think you mentiond but are you taking the test on a dear i say it but a petrol scooter ???
or will they let you take your test on the scooter ??
as i have had to do a cbt test over in england . its compulsry bike traning and some insurance wont touch you with out this
its to say really you are compitant rider .so you can take it with a bike company for £110 pounds sterling or it you like me i managed to ask the company to use my own scooter its clasifacation was 50cc but electric scooter it was a emax 110s scooter . no probbs they said and i saved £20 pounds aswell for using my own bike but
when we got there thought we should of been refunded another £20 becouse all the students had to get there shovels out and dig all the snow but mainly ice off the school yard that we would be practicing aprox 1. 1/2 hours to sort it all out !!!!!
then when i got there they said the instructors said to me why do i not have l plates i said thats becouse the e u law changed way way back and as i past my car test so long age it would act as a full liynce to this little scooter they wasn't too shour !!! but the owner came along and said they wasn't a probblem and
by way monthes before that i alwas took a passanger my son or my girlfrend ushally she wanted to go shopping ..!!
so pased this test but the instructer did say after we all went out on the open road that i struggled to keep up to the min requiment thats 30 mph with other petrol scooter
ok it could do with been a little faster thats when i decided to opt for the vectrix scooter ..
after cbt test there is a nother test thery test and hazode paseption test they show video and you have to quick to point out the hazeds that unfold then only then can you go for the bike test on the road test and then manuvaring around cones and such like then if pass you can carrey a pasanger on a bigger bike like the vectrix scooter and obusley tear up the l plates yipee
i havent doe it yet but i think i will have to take test on big auto petrol scooter to get the classifacation as they said that it was too light ???!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha
owell i might try to contact the test centure again as i would really like to pass my test on the vectrix and then be able to carry pasangers without l plates and in few years just be restriked to automatic scooters up to any size engine !!! chears kev

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 446
Re: "Getting to Know You..."

hi i was just wondering how much each cell would cost ??
and and how many would it take to fill the boots of the vectrix scooter
and wonder what range we could get out of it i/e mybe
80 miles with two on. thats the magic number as it could get me and my gal to the sea side
think if a lot of ev coul do this it would stop a lot of probblems and
woman would look on them favorably and not get too much ear rake !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and also if we managed to get to the coast at a reasnable speed ,?? ok above 30 mph with two on
then i am shure that i wouldent have a probblem charging it ok i would have to beg for a charge
but hey you never know we probbley would meet some nise people and i could always give them a ride or failling
that
plan c offer money insentive hahaha well if you want to know i acctully just laffed out loud
hey dont we all just love our babys the ev ones of corse
.kev ps i am not botherd about the cells been yellow .kev

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
Re: My XM-5000li Experience

I took the MST class on their "standard" intermediate sized motorcycles. I could have used the e-scooter, but I wanted to learn the clutch and shifting coordination (that the scooter does not require - since it does not even have a transmission or clutch).

BTW, the lack of a "clutch" (or, more accurately, the operation of the brake motor-shutoff circuit) makes starting on an upgrade a bit difficult. I might consider adding a switch to temporarily bypass that function on the right (front wheel) brake lever, just to enable smooth uphill starts.

When the weather gets better, I will take the XM-5000Li to the training area and practice some of the same exercises.

Now, I am licensed for all motorcycles, and have the 5000Li registered as a "motorcycle" with a scooter body type. As far as I know, that makes it street, highway, and even freeway legal.

Now, I am trying to get X-Treme's permission to measure and monitor the batteries (with a commercial, somewhat expensive data logging system).

Next, I want to monitor enough to determine when some battery management will become necessary. Then, design, build, and install an inexpensive, manual battery monitoring and balancing system.

Then, add an inexpensive Low Voltage Control system, for use while riding (to keep any cell from being overly discharged). The motor-controller already detects a too-low Pack, but that feature does not protect a single, low, unbalanced cell.

Finally, I want to install a good, but reasonable BMS system to use while charging (to keep any cell from over-charging).

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
XM-5000li Battery Costs

Currently, a single ThunderSky 60 Amp-Hour LiFePO4 battery cell (from Elite Power Solutions at www.ElitePowerSolutions.com ) lists for $108 plus shipping.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/11/2007
Points: 3723
Re: Manual Cell-Condition Checking

garygid wrote:

Thunder Sky says that each cell's voltage should be checked, even before first use. After that, one should be able to re-check the voltages occasionally, in some quick and easy manner.

CAUTION: You should NOT try this unless you are SURE that you know what you are doing. It is DANGEROUS. Also, it might affect your warranty.

1. Two connections (to the battery pack's positive and negative sides) are needed, and they are already available where the Charger connects to the pack.

2. Twenty other connections are required, to the inaccessible positive side of the "bottom" 20 cells.

3. Through fuses, these lines can be used (carefully) to measure each cell's voltage.

4. To make the measurements easier, a 22-position (21 cells and OFF) 2-pole rotary switch can be used. Or, two 12-position switches could be used.

5. A simple 0 to 5 volt meter can be connected to the switch to read the selected cell's voltage.

6. If one notices that a cell is too high, it could be discharged somewhat to "balance" the cells.

7. Likewise, a "too low" cell could be charged, again, to help balance the cells.

This simple addition would allow "normal" people to occasionally check, and better maintain the health of their battery cells.

I will look for suitable parts just in case somebody wants to build one.

You should also consider to limit the potential current flow to prevent electrocution. 50mA is plenty to kill a human, and the 60V battery can deliver this.
Fuses will not prevent this, but fuses are still needed to avoid catastrophic battery damage due to accidental shorts.
Without any resistors somewhere in the line, the tab to the negative pole of cell one and the tab to the positive pole of cell 21 will have the full voltage between them.
Measuring voltages can be done through resistors with only small measurement errors being introduced. About 7.5 to 10kOhm inserted into each tab cable would probably be enough to limit the maximum current to safe levels (<10mA).

But you cannot charge or discharge through the same cable when it has resistors in it.

I solved this problem in the Vectux M-BMS by placing a fuse at each tab directly at the cell, and then a connector still inside the battery safety compartment. If cell balancing is needed, then the safety container must be opened to allow access to the cable terminals for charging. From the connector in the safety compartment also leave the very thin measuring cables, and these are all connected to the tabs through 15kOhm resistors.
That way measurements can be done any time, even when riding, without risk of electrocution. Even in a severe accident the Vectux would remain as safe (or unsafe) as without the added M-BMS.

Vectux M-BMS Schematic.

Some cells have been tabbed for direct charging in the boot, but the maximum voltage across those tabs is only about 40V.

More details on ES: Vectux BMS - Feedback, please!

Mr. Mik wrote:

I am not sure if it is moronic or ingenious, but I'm sure it has potential!

Well, fortunately I realised the moronic part of the design before building it:

It has the potential to kill!

This rather unwanted effect could occur during the making of all those connections, or during handling of the finished product, or during an accident with damage to the scooter. It could even hit an unsuspecting rescue worker trying to clean up the mess after an accident.

__________________

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
Electric Scooter/Motorcycle Design Change

Electric Motorcycle/Scooter Design Change:

Starting up on an uphill slope is awkward, even dangerous when
the slope is larger and/or the scooter has "cargo" (extra weight).

This happens because the electric motor is (usually?) forced OFF
whenever either of the brakes is applied. Thus, one has to
completely release both brakes (and start to roll backward)
before the throttle becomes effective. Further, there might be
a part of a second before the motor-controller and hub motor
start to drive the rear wheel.

At best, an awkward situation, but potentially a dangerous
situation since a smooth start is generally not possible.

How do you experienced e-riders handle this uphill startup now?

It is necessary, in my mind, to add a brake-switch defeat mode,
where the brakes (at least the front brake) can remain applied while
the throttle is operated to begin to apply power to the rear wheel.

Question is, where to locate this "normally-closed" switch?
Any ideas, please?

Thanks, Gary

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
Re: Manual Cell-Condition Checking

Mik,
Thanks for the drawing of your Manual Battery Monitoring System (M-BMS).
And, for the suggestion of current limiting in the measuring leads.

I am trying to build a system that can both Monitor and Charge or Discharge
any selected cell, so I need to get 5 (or more) amps in or out of each cell.

From the battery-cell posts we have wired to a set of automotive fuses,
one for each lead (21 cells, 22 leads). This is primarily protection
from accidental shorting of wires. Indeed, I would prefer the fuses
to be right at each cell terminal post, but then they could not be accessed
easily after the battery packs are re-assembled.
Perhaps you have a good suggestion?

From there, a set of parallel 24-pin connectors will allow attaching one
or more of the following devices: a PakTrakr, a Manual-BMS, a real BMS,
an LVC circuit, or some other experimental cell-management or monitoring device.

I will probably use the 24-pin VAL-U-LOK connectors.
Again, somebody might have a better suggestion for connectors?

Please tell me more (or PM me) about the thermistor temperature
monitoring, the specific equipment that you used, and how you
"attached" the thermistor sensors.

Thanks, Gary

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

garygid
Offline
Joined: 12/20/2008
Points: 441
New XM-5000li Frame

AndyH reports that the frame, the rear suspension, the battery box, and the center stand of the 5000Li are NOT the same as those on the 3500Li.
More details to follow later.

__________________

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

rossasaurus
rossasaurus's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/03/2008
Points: 159
Re: The XM-5000

Hi Gary,
Where do you get the "24-pin VAL-U-LOK" connectors?

R

=======================

response to an earlier post:
I suspect the Regen is disabled in the controller to protect the Lithium Cells from getting overcharged.
For instance, when I leave home, I go down a very long, steep hill.
So, my batteries are fully charged, then I go down this long hill, where if I had regen and no BMS, I could overcharge and ruin my Lithium cells.
Without a BMS with OverVoltage protection, Regen could cause battery damage.

That's my guess; either that, or they were having trouble controlling or metering the Regen properly and it was causing bucking or too-quick stops when the Regen kicked-in.

Or, the Regen was popping the Controller for some reason; spikes etc ??

R

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/11/2007
Points: 3723
Re: Manual Cell-Condition Checking

garygid wrote:

Mik,
Thanks for the drawing of your Manual Battery Monitoring System (M-BMS).
And, for the suggestion of current limiting in the measuring leads.

I am trying to build a system that can both Monitor and Charge or Discharge
any selected cell, so I need to get 5 (or more) amps in or out of each cell.

The Vectux M-BMS allows currents of up to 10A continuous for the 16 "full access tabs" and up to 20A continuous for all tabs when connected inside the safety container.

Quote:

From the battery-cell posts we have wired to a set of automotive fuses,
one for each lead (21 cells, 22 leads). This is primarily protection
from accidental shorting of wires. Indeed, I would prefer the fuses
to be right at each cell terminal post, but then they could not be accessed
easily after the battery packs are re-assembled.
Perhaps you have a good suggestion?

I soldered 20A fuses directly into the 30A rated cables at the connection to each cell. There is not much empty space inside a Vectrix battery, so I had to make fuses which don't need bulky fuse holders. I do not mind (HAHA) if I have to take the battery apart to replace the fuse if it ever blows. It's all over-engineered by about a factor of 4, and whenever one of these fuses opens, it means that there would have been a disaster without the fuse, with very likely destruction of several or all cells in the pack! It's only an insurance against worst case scenarios, not something I expected to ever happen. But when I had put one of the batteries together again I found that 2 or 3 fuses had blown; looking closer I found that the cable insulation had been damaged in several places by mechanical forces during re-assembly without a spare millimetre. This damage had happened to the part of the cable which would have been located between the cell and any easily accessible fuse.

Quote:

From there, a set of parallel 24-pin connectors will allow attaching one
or more of the following devices: a PakTrakr, a Manual-BMS, a real BMS,
an LVC circuit, or some other experimental cell-management or monitoring device.

I will probably use the 24-pin VAL-U-LOK connectors.
Again, somebody might have a better suggestion for connectors?

Please tell me more (or PM me) about the thermistor temperature
monitoring, the specific equipment that you used, and how you
"attached" the thermistor sensors.

Thanks, Gary

You could make one or more small boards which accept the tab cables and route them to two connectors instead of one. The connection to one of the connnectors is through resistors, to the other connector it is a straight low resistance connection.
Then you can have easy connectivity for measurement devices which you can handle with cold, wet, gloved hands in the rain without any risk, and another connector for when you are in the dry garage and you want to hook up the charger or discharger and move real amps.
Here are some pictures of a prototype I build, integrating current and temp sensor connectors, resistors and direct connections to the tabs via the "banana-plugs". Unfortunately it turned out to be too large to fit into the Vectux! But it shows the principle more clearly than the smaller ones I built afterwards.

Click to enlarge:

Regarding the temperature monitoring:

I use this thermometer: http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM6324&CATID=&keywords=thermometer+indoor%2Foutdoor&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOn...

Additional sensors are soldered onto very thin cables (rainbow cable) and switched through low-grade rotary switches. Some resistance does not matter much because they are 10KOhm Thermistors (at 25deg C, negative coefficient). Even if your cable connections are poor with a few Ohm resistance, it does not matter all that much.

I bet you can find a cheap electronic thermometer, cut off the sensor, measure what it it does when you change it's temperature and then find the corresponding thermistors at your local electronics store. They'll cost you less than a dollar each, I think.

__________________

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: New XM-5000li Frame

garygid wrote:

AndyH reports that the frame, the rear suspension, the battery box, and the center stand of the 5000Li are NOT the same as those on the 3500Li.
More details to follow later.

The swing arm and battery box are likely very different. However, I'd be surprised if the frame is different. The difference of the swing arm is significant (including how the swing arm is mounted to the frame). So, I'd love to see details of the XM-5000Li swing arm and I'd be happy to post detailed pictures of the XM-3500Li swing arm (including suspension mounting and frame mounting details).

However, the center stand and battery box aren't very significant with regard to how the bike will ride and handle.

Look for differences in how the frame is constructed and how the front end geometry is different between an XM-3500Li and an XM-5000Li and then I'll "believe you" that the frames are different in a way that is meaningful.

BTW, please be careful with nomenclature as well - AFAIK, in usual motorcycle engineering terms the rear swing arm is not considered part of the frame. In this context (and the context I was using) the frame is the main metal structure of the bike with nothing else attached. FYI, as far as I know the Vectrix (like Vespas) use a "uni-body" design whereas the XM's / EVDs / rEV1 use a tubular frame. Generally speaking that makes Vectrii and Vespas heavier but stiffer.

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

antiscab
Offline
Joined: 07/07/2007
Points: 1596
Re: Electric Scooter/Motorcycle Design Change

on my emax, the response time between letting off the brake, and being able to accelerate is immeserable (at least by me).
on the one hill ive ever encountered where i had to stop and i wasnt able to hold the bike position without using hte brakes, the accelerator worked fast enough after letting off the brakes that i didnt roll back at all.
i dont know wat grade it was, but i do know i needed 4.5kw to hold 55kmh.

it would depend on how the controller lock out is implemented i spose.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Customize This