My XM-5000li Experience
I just ordered an XM-5000li, and my blog will gradually grow to detail my experience with this new model scooter.
This will be the place where my "review" (actually, just my experiences) can be discussed and questions can be asked and answered.
It is reported that this new "5000-watt" model is made in a different factory.
So, I will know more after "she" gets delivered, I have a chance to read the manual(s), and I am able to spend time examining her. If you have things that you want me to check or look for, please let me know here.
First, the delivery truck arrives, and ... look for ... what?
I think we all like to hear about what condition the packaging is in at delivery, how the bike is packed up and what kind of damage, if any, the bike has that appears to have occurred during the shipping process. After you get it out I think we'd all like to see if the instrument panel has changed any from the XM-3500Li and maybe what, if anything, they may have done with the lighting (is the lighting on the dash still really poor, did they go to 3 lights in the tail-light instead of 1, are the headlights still a bit on the dim side). After that, of course, are all the usual things you might find on how she performs and such. Then let us know if you do any mods. ;)
Gary-- good luck on your new purchase. The facts are that the manual you will getting will be next to useless and your main job will be to make sure that all features work and if not then you can send in a claim ticket(s) to extreme asap. The good news is that all the information that is on this forum will be of good value for you, so read as much as you can on all the other pages and take notes so that you will have as much information as you will need to get started. Then you can use this page to educate us 3500 owners on this new bike and ask this forum the questions that the manual does not answer. We are all excited for you and are waiting to see how this new bike compares with what is known by us. Best Mikie
Bad weather delayed the XM-5000li's trip in Kansas City,
but I hope it will arrive at the UPS depot in California
on Monday evening, and get delivered sometime on Tuesday.
We have found out that it is important to arrange for a lift-gate
truck for delivery when UPS calls to make the delivery appointment.
I bought two dollies to set the "pallet" on, to better get the
434-pound "package" into the garage. I will get pictures.
I signed up for a Motorcycle Safety class for this coming weekend,
and they supply the motorcycle, and also a helmet if I do not have
one by that time. Each of the two days includes 2.5 hours of
classroom instruction in the morning and then 5 hours of actual
on-bike training and experience in the afternoon.
Gary-- I can tell you are really jazzed, it is so much fun and just remember to look both ways a couple of times and just ASSUME
that everybody DOES NOT see you when you are out there....we are watching and listening....M
Yes, excited. The delivery (via lift-gate truck) should finally happen tomorrow afternoon.
Since the "package" is over 400 pounds, I bought two $17 dollies from Harbor Freight to help roll the "package" into my garage.
Hopefully the delivery guy will be able to off-load directly onto the dollies. If not, some leverage might be required. Then, a little uphill push to the garage.
And, I hope to get pictures of the process for my blog.
(loudly) My 5000 arrived in San Antonio 30 minutes ago!
(very quiet voice)But if I break into the UPS freight warehouse, I can have it before Gary gets his...arrgghhhh! (insert sounds of sirens, slamming doors, and rounds being chambered in multiple shotguns) Hmmm...another plan maybe...
Wait...where are you Gary? Somewhere in California? So that's 'afternoon' Pacific time? I'm in Central and get first shot at 'afternoon'...I might still win this race... }:) :D
Wehhhhllll weeerrr waaaaaiting! Ala Judge Shmales from caddy shack. Can't wait to hear if the quality is better,brakes,tires balanced,handlebars strait. Me and a friend both got 35ooli's and have the same problems on both of them. Ever notice with no hands you have to lean way right on the 3500?
Congrats Gary! UPS decided to hold my bike until tomorrow :-( So if you get your bike today you win!
I won, I won!
It arrived this afternoon.
Yes, the Pallet died, and the "bones" got in the way of moving the "package" off the truck with the pallet jack, but ... I did not intend to ride the pallet in any case. The three yellow straps are around the "box" and frame, and they did their job well. The three dark bands were to hold the box onto the pallet, but they just kept the pallet "bones" entangled with the box.
Then, I removed the bands (not metal) and lifted off the carton, and ...
The scooter really looks splendid, with everything that I can see in excellent shape. It is unlikely that there is any damage - a really well done wrapping and packing job. As you can see, this is a MUCH better shipping frame. Many good diagonal braces, added vertical bars on sides, etc. The top and sides can be un-bolted to leave just the bottom and ends of the frame, to make it easier to remove the scooter from the frame. Absolutely Splended!
On the left side, everything also looks perfect, with the 15-amp (yes, it says 15 Amps, but apparently 110 volt only) ThunderSky charger in the cardboard box in the center. Notice the large, rectangular motor-controller mounted "over" the rear wheel. Presumably, that will keep the controller well cooled.
So far, it is all GOOD news. More later, and ...
Andy's 5000Li should arrive Friday.
I won, I won ... (giggle)
A few minutes "late", the truck from UPS Freight arrives, and my puppies are barking at the "new" sounds of a possible intruder. Little Heidi is only 5 pounds, what could she do?
I had prepared a place for the scooter in the "California" garage (overly stuffed, since we have no basements).
The truck has a very nice lift gate, that folds and tucks under the back end of the truck, so you would not really notice that it was there, unless you know what to look for. Don't pay any attention to the old guy hiding behind the white beard. He is going to Basic Motorcycle Safety Training tomorrow.
There it is, way in the "back" (really the front) of the trailer.
We took the large rolls of bubble-wrap out to make room for the "package" to come out.
Trying to get the pallet jack under, it becomes clear that the pallet has "died" and the "bones" are getting in the way. My heart flutters a bit as I wonder if the "package" is going to tip over. But somehow ... the driver manages. You can see one of the two metal "cross-feet" welded onto the bottom of the frame.
As you can see, the remnants of the pallet really did not help at all.
However, the shipping frame seems to be relatively sturdy, and the driver managed to get the whole thing up the driveway and set near the garage using just the pallet jack. That clever guy knows how to use the equipment.
More Later, Gary
Before I start unpacking this cool scooter, I wanted some pictures that show how the scooter is "wired" into the shipping frame. Starting in Front, one can see the front tire between (not "pinched" by) the small guide-rails, one on either side. The two wire tie-downs can be seen.
A closeup of the front wheel shows the tie-down on the left.
And the tie-down on the right.
Is this front wheel brake a standard "non-ABS" brake (that is prefered by some)? Or, is the little cylinder on the upper part of the brake something to do with a possible "ABS" function? The included color XM-5000Li manual does not mention ABS, it only says Front and Rear Disk brakes.
The rear is also tied down on two sides, one tie goes a bit forward, and the other one goes a bit to the rear. It appears to be really well planned.
The right-side view of the rear wheel shows the tie-down, and a brake assembly that is ... partially rotated from the "normal" position?
Then, the back-end "Lift-Rack" is very well secured in three directions. These tie-downs (along with the two rear-wheel tie-downs) keep the scooter upright in the frame. Again, it appears to be really well done.
We set the rear end of the frame on a dolly, to be able to move the whole thing into the garage. Yes, it is quite heavy. See the space between the tire and the side guide-rails shows clearly.
And a dolly for the front end, of course.
Finally, we got it (and the carton) into the garage for the night.
Looks like I will not need the carton any more. It has one significant hole in it, but no apparent damage to the scooter. I will post those pictures later.
So far, everything seems to be done well, with somebody applying significant good thought as to how it should be done.
More later, Gary
Thanks for keeping us posted with the unboxing. I gotta hand it to X-treme, that looks like a very well done packaging job. I can't tell from the pics, does that frame bolt together? How do you get the bike out?
Yes it bolts together but the real pain is to get the tires out of the very tight metal slots they come in. I have all the grinding tools
and cutters in my shop but you are working right next to the tires and that is pretty touchy. So what do I do one week later after I got the bike out and I am modifying the rear tire flap, Drill right into the side of the new tire! Oh well....enjoy guys and make sure you watch out for the next guys out there. Best Mikie
The 3500 that I helped with did have the wheels tightly clamped between two steel tubes. The welds were good enough for shipping, but were no match for a pair of channel-lock pliers - one twist and it pops off. It would have been easier (in hindsight, of course...) to have just deflated the tires and lifted it or rolled it out. Oh well, live and learn!
Looking at Gary's pictures again, I can see that the wheels are not held in this frame the way the 3500's are. This cage appears to be a RORO - roll on, roll off!
I'll know more sometime in the next couple of hours...I'll have my 5000 today.
Congrats Gary! The bike looks good! It'll look better when you get it out of jail!
Congratulations it's a 5000li!
There are about 16 nuts and bolts (14 mm) to remove in order to lift off the top of the XM-5000Li's shipping frame. The remaining pieces are the two ends and the four side, lower-corner diagonal braces.
The 5000Li's tires are not at all "pinched" by the metal tire-guides. This can be seen in some of my pictures. However, it is not really roll-off either. Maybe one-end Lift-Off?
To remove the 5000Li from the shipping frame (after the top of the frame is removed), I suspect that one should really have three people. First, one (or two) to steady the scooter as the last couple of the 7 wire tie-downs are removed. Second, it looks like two people might lift the back end of the scooter up about a foot, and swing the back end out to the right side while the third person keeps the front end from tilting too much to either side.
Possibly Andy will have a better idea after he actually does it.
No more trips to the CHP to get an Engine Number assigned and stamped in.
Way to go, X-Treme!
Stamped into the metal left-side of the XM-5000Li's "engine" (the electric in-hub motor) near the outer edge, is an eight-character Engine Number: 08N xxxxx (where the xxxxx is five numeric digits, possibly the serial number).
Now, to Register the scooter at the DMV in California, I can go once with the right paperwork and get a temporary permit to drive the vehicle to bring it to the DMV. Then, I can go a second time (with the scooter this time) and have the scooter inspected, examined, probed, etc. and complete the Registration.
Of course, if one can "somehow" get the vehicle there on the first visit, then only one trip to the DMV is necessary. All of this assumes that one has the correct paperwork.
On the XM-5000Li the "Economy" switch is no longer on the right grip.
Possibly it was moved because one should NOT change the switch's setting with the motor running, and that prohibition might be much more important with the 5000Li's more powerful motor, or with the new, larger, more-powerful motor-controller.
There is a small locked compartment down between the driver's feet. Inside, one finds a obvious light grey "pigtail" connector (a connector hanging on the end of a wire rather than being mounted rigidly in a surface) that is used for charging the scooter. Right, the charging connector is no longer under the seat, so the charger cannot be left under the seat while charging. The new 15-amp charger needs good air flow for cooling when it is operating. So, make sure that the charger gets the cooling that it requires.
However, there is also a small, less-obvious, dangling switch (on the end of a pair of wires) that is just labeled with "0" and "1". It appears that the "1" setting puts the motor-controller in the "Economy Mode" of operation. Thus, a suitable name for this switch would seem to be the "Economy-Mode Switch" rather than simply a "Speed Switch".
Thats strange, The switch isn't mounted. Also why is it bad to use the switch with the motor running?
The center brace kept the bike from tipping once the wires were cut - and that's a good thing!
I was able to get the bike out by bending the rear corners back about 20 degrees - this gave room to roll the bike back a bit without touching the luggage rack or rear of the bike. That gave me enough room to get the front tire clear of the 'floor tubing' and the angle brace. At that point it was fairly easy to swing the bike clear of the frame about 90 degrees. Once clear of the center bar, the bike rolled off. I needed my 6-year old to stand on the frame - it's strong enough but light enough to lift with one hand - the frame wanted to come when I lifted the bike.
I don't recommend that method, though, because it's difficult to muscle the bike around and control it at the same time. It would be a lot easier with two people.
Careful around the steel when you're taking it apart - the corners are sharp!
One X-Treme manual said, IN BIG LETTERS, to NOT CHANGE the "Economy Mode" switch while moving!
This LOUD warning might not apply to the 5000Li, but its "speed" switch
is "locked away" for some reason, and its use is not described in the manual.
The wording of the warning I saw was something like:
" ... NOTE - NEVER OPERATE SWITCH WHILE RIDING.
Rider must come to a complete stop before switching ...
INTERNAL DAMAGE can occur."
For me, at least until I learn more, the strange position of the 5000Li's
"speed" switch is enough for me to not change it while moving.
I will try to get more information from X-Treme,
but that is very likely to take some time.
I got the scooter out of the shipping frame today, with my friend's help.
We used "Plan A-prime": A minor variation of "Pick up the back end of the scooter and swing it out to the right side, with the front tire remaining in place on the frame".
1. Position the frame so that there is room on its left side to stand and lift, and a lot of room on the frame's right side to swing the scooter out a bit more than 45 degrees from the frame.
2. Remove the 16 bolts that hold the top of the frame to the bottom, removing the internal cross-piece first, then the two vertical side bars. Finally, lift off the top of the frame, setting it out of the way.
3. Bash (or cut) away at least the right side and center of the "underbelly" support part of the frame, so that the belly of the scooter will clear it better as the scooter is lifted and swung out. If two people are quite strong, and can lift the back end of the scooter higher, the "bashing" might not be necessary. I wanted the extra clearance.
4. With one person holding the scooter to steady it, undo and remove the 7 wire ties that hold the 5000Li in place (three on the lift rack, 2 on the front wheel, and two on the rear wheel).
5. Next, prepare to lift the back end. Make sure that the handlebars are not "locked" (the ignition switch should be in the "OFF" position, not the "LOCKED" position). Make sure that the brakes are unwrapped so that the disc brakes are not activated. Also, a warning: Do NOT lift by the end of the so-called "lift rack" because it is too likely to break. Instead, use the two "passenger handles" that extend forward from the main body of the lift rack.
6. Do the Lift and Swing: Carefully, but quickly, we picked up the rear end of the 5000Li and swung it out to the right side, far enough to miss the remnants of the "bashed" underbelly support.
6. Finally, we used the handlebars to lift up the front end slightly and roll the scooter backward off the shipping frame.
The charger has a "nameplate" that specifies
"Thunder Sky Battery Limited
Model: TSL 60 - 15
Input: AC 99 ~ 121V 45-63 Hz
Output: DC 75v 15A
NingBo Thunder Sky
Made In China"
In addition, there is also a stick-on label:
"Suitable for 21 cells
Charger for lithium battery
Input: AC 110V"
So it appears that:
1. it is not "universal" AC input
2. it might be "adjusted" for more than 75 volts output.
3. Yes, it is a strange "date", that might mean 12 Oct 2008, perhaps at 8 a.m.?
The AC cord is attached rather than plug-in, approx. 5 feet long.
The DC Output (Charging) cord is also attached, but only about 2 feet long.
More info later, Gary
Does the charger output monitor each of the 21 cells for balance/over charge? Or is it just a 21 cell sieres bulk charger?
You guys are really putting alot of worrying in taking the scooter out of the crate ;-)
When I got one of my 3500Li´s (packed in the same way) I singlehandedly pulled it of my trailer with the help of 2 planks.
Screwed the crate apart, cut the wires, angle grinder to cut some bars and drove the scooter out of it, no problem!
I´m really eager to hear about the performance, thanks for sharing!
The charger that Gary recieved is for 20 40AH cells, so they either sent him the wrong charger or the bike doesn't come with the 60AH cells they say. They may just be trying to save money as that charger will work but it will be slow and won't charge the pack fully. I thought the bike was going to have 24 60AH cells and the TSL 60-20 thats good 24 60AH cells, that charger which you can see at elite power solutions charges at 20 amps and should take 2.67 hrs for a full charge. It looks like we're getting hosed again.(big surprise)On the economy switch, I bet they just don't want you hitting the high speed switch with the throttle at full. I use mine all the time,but I close the throttle like I'm shifting. My manual didn't say anything about that. Don't get me wrong I love my bike I just don't think I got what I payed for or was advertised. I would put at least 3 more cells in there and get the 87v 15amp charger at elite. Then you would have something.
It appears we have an 'adjusted' TS60/15 charger. Elite Power Solutions lists the specs for the 'stock' 60/15 as pushing 72.6V. Ours is adjusted up another 3.3V to 75.0V. See http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=63 for the specs of the 'stock' charger.
This keeps our charging close to the 'Thunder Sky warranty approved' undercharge. It's 3.57V per cell for our 21 TS60 cells, compared to 3.63V for 20 TS cells.
My bike's 60Ah pack is charging right now. The charger is still in the 'constant current' phase, so voltage isn't at it's peak yet. It's pushing 72.4V at 12.7A. I'll grab a couple of measurements when the pack is nearly full and the charger is in the 'constant voltage' stage.
Since this is a custom charger for the US market, they probably didn't see the need for 220V input.
One thing I can say so far - this charger does work! It isn't like other smart charters I've worked with. When I plug in right after a ride - when the batteries are warm - the charger jumps right to 15A and pushes electrons. Today, though, on a cool pack (not ridden since yesterday), the charger started slowly - only a couple of amps. After about 10 minutes it moved up to full power.
Wait until you get this on the road, Gary! I'm still feeling mine out so don't have any significant performance numbers yet. I can say that the speedo and GPS agree at 25mph. I can also say that this bike will jump up quickly to 60 on a slight downhill - and it feels very solid and stable there. And the brakes work very well! This really feels like a much larger bike.
Does the charger output monitor each of the 21 cells for balance/over charge? Or is it just a 21 cell sieres bulk charger?
Just a series charger - no cell monitoring.
The XM-5000Li should contain 21 cells, as specified, not 24 cells.
These TS LFP cells are marked as 60AHA (60 Amp-hour) capacity.
I have not (yet) dug down into the guts to be able to count the cells.
The charger for the 40 Ah cells was a 10-amp charger, I believe. This charger, for the 60 Ah cells, is 15 amps, maintaining the "4-hour" charge rate.
The charger is a "bulk" charger, used to charge a battery Pack through one connector containing just two wires, a plus" and a "minus". There is no provision for control or connection to individual cells. There is not even an ON/OFF switch. However, the two LEDs on the "output" end are supposed to indicate many different (even some helpful) conditions.
The front of the charger, with my puppy Heidi checking its smells:
The "nameplate" information. Note, NOT "universal" AC input voltage:
The AC Input end of the charger, with the "21-cell Lithium" sticker:
The DC Output end of the charger, where the lights should (according to the manual) indicate short circuit, open charging circuit, reversed polarity, overheating of the charger, etc.
And finally, the charging connector:
The manual warns us to keep it dry, "dustless", and well ventilated, and that opening the case is not allowed (and could be dangerous).
Actual operation is unknown, since the manual is poor, short, and tries to cover all of the Thunder Sky "TSL Series" chargers. It is poor for two main reasons other than the almost unintelligible English. First, one has no idea what specs apply to this charger. In fact this charger seems to be not included in some (or most) of the manual's tables. Second, there is no description of the charging process, the curves, rates, times, etc. for this charger (or any other in the series) are not mentioned. The manual says that all these things can be "set" by the customer (that would be X-Treme, not us). So, I will try to get some better information from X-Treme. The manual mentions "pulse-charging" but no description and no indication if it applies to this charger.
Not a lot, but a start.
When we can measure it in operation, we will let you know more.
I havn't ripped my bike apart yet, but from the pack voltages I'm confident that I have the promised 21-cell pack.
I just caught mine switching from CC mode (red charge light) to CV mode (green charge light, fan still on). The charger's pushing 74.9 to 75.1. The charge rate dropped to 1.8A.
My charger appears to be switching on and off on it's own.** It came up to about 72V and shut down. I sat there holding the test probes into the back side of the Anderson-like connector and watched the voltage slowly drop to just unver 70V. The charger kicked back on in CC mode, pushed the pack to 75V, then moved to CV mode. Right about then my hands went numb. ;)
FWIW, the charge curve is listed on Elite's website: http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/em_charging_curve.php **It looks like I caught my charger moving in to the last 30-minute on/off cycle mode.
Also, Thundersky has a great cell handbook available in PDF format for download from their site: http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2007030222.pdf