Apparently Vectrix realizes their bikes are too expensive so they're introducing two new models both with - wait for it - LEAD ACID BATTERIES
Read this and weep: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/26/details-on-vectrix-vx-1e-and-vx-2-filter-in/
What's up with that? Next maybe they'll offer a gas version?
;) Flame on!
(p.s. this is intended as a good-natured dig - I *like* the Vectrix I just can't *afford* the Vectrix and I do question the wisdom of using SLAs. I'm sure it's some form of a stop gap measure.)
They are simply trying to offer a bargain basement scooter for folks that don't actually NEED to go 30 miles on a charge or 60mph. Hey, if it brings income in a tough economy, I wish them all the best.
I dont think they are going backwards, simply that they started off offering the jewel of the crown (Vx-1)and now they also offer the fashion jewelery (Vx-1e) ans some fakes (Vx-2).By the way the company themselves said (somwhere in the investors documents on the official web)they positioned there products with the likes of BMW,DAIMLER(In the car world),whether they achieve it or not is another story,but thats what they aimed at with the Vx-1.
I think this is a backward step. No company has had much success selling lead-acid powered motorbikes in Vectrix's target markets, especially not one the size of the VX1e.
When is the Vectrix with the lithium battery version due? Mainstream riders will only buy Vectrix's offerings when they become comparable to ICE-powered motorbikes I.e. the 100+km real world range provided by lithium. The zero-x dirt bike is much closer to the existing dirt bikes available in performance and weight and with a swappable lithium battery, has a much bett3r chance of achieving good sales numbers.
If Vectrix makes money out of selling low-end bikes that's great but it will be to a very different buyer than the one who wants to replace their existing ICE motorbike.
The VX1 is a great "version 1.0" bike, and I hope Vectrix focus on making it good enough to convert mainstream riders rather than trying to sure up the balance sheet by finding an untapped niche market.
Unfortunately for everybody out there that thinks that expensive Lithium batteries are the only future you can just ignore the fact that lead acid batteries are making some big advancements and may be a large part of the future in electric transportation. The first big advancement came with Silicone Batteries. They have the ability to deliver more power over a short period of time without heating up and damaging the battery. This is because these batteries have extremely low resistance. This also allowed them to charge at twice the rate of other lead acid batteries. The new Vectrix Vx-2 is powered by a new Greensaver Silicone battery rated at 60 amp hours @ a 5 hour rate. This bike is of course the e max 110s with new Vectrix side panels. A new lead acid battery made by Fire fly is now available and the claim is it will last 5 times longer than any lead acid battery made today and is also lighter. This battery is made only in a Group 31 size battery and is being offered to the trucking industry with the first batteries going in service in December of 2008. I am trying to get my hands on one of these batteries but that will be hard get right now. I also have been in touch with another manufacture who is developing a nano teck lead acid battery that they claim will produce 10 times the amount of power per pound when compared to today's lead acid batteries.
Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA
My own experience so far is that _sealed_ lead acid batteries - the only kind usable in a two-wheeled vehicle, including silicones, simply don't have the cycle life to be economically viable.
Their initial purchase price may be cheap, but when batteries start going bad often after just one season of daily use, and replacement batteries have to be bought and installed, not to mention the troubleshooting headaches of finding the bad batteries, it get expensive in a hurry.
The result is angry owners (most of which cannot do their own troubleshooting and repair) who conclude that electric vehicles are just a scam, and the whole cause gets set back a decade.
The reason SLA's are no good in EV's is that even with careful bank charging or the use of battery balancers, the individual cells in an SLA get out of balance and one or two cells in a battery always fails prematurely. This is because unlike flooded lead acid, SLA's cannot be equalization-charged - a deliberate overcharge until the electrolyte specific gravities are all equal.
If you can be sure you will never dump the scooter, you could use flooded lead acid batteries and occasional equalization charging and get much longer life. But you would still need to occasionally check the electrolyte levels on all of them.
I'm as dedicated an EV'er as anyone, but the only reason I haven't put my scooters out with the trash has been my conversion to Thundersky Lithium with a proper BMU. It was a big up-front investment ($1300 vs. $400-550 for a SLA pack) but it will be cheaper in the long run.
PJD
Can you explain how you replace a scooter with 500 dollar worth of lead acid batteries with Lithium batteries and a battery management system for $1300. I must be shopping somewhere else.
Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA.com
48V System =
16 * 40 Ah @ $1.70 per Ah = $1088 (http://www.elitepower.com)
BMS Board from TPPacks = $49 (http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=26)
BMS Parts from Mouser = $57 (http://www.mouser.com import the BOM from TPPacks)
Note, I believe that the above BMS Board will allow the existing charger to be used.
Sorry, but I believe that "lead is dead" as far as the two wheel market is concerned. However, competition is good and if there's an improvement in batteries that comes to market and is better then the great news is that our motors and controllers don't care where their electrons come from so we can always switch back. However, sorry Eric, but I won't be holding my breath.
BTW - Elite Power have just started carrying a 20Ah cell. For a small (XM-3000 etc.) bike used for short distances these might make an excellent solution. I'm hoping to try them out on one of my bikes later this year.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Elite Power is an electrical contractor. I think you mean http://www.elitepowersolutions.com/
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
I will try to get these figures right. We are talking about an older E-max scooter I can see or similar.
8- Greensaver SP-20 batteries is $396
16- Thundersky lithium batteries is $1,152 at the site you gave me.
The BMS is another story altogether if you get the Thundersky batteries your warranty will be good only if you buy an approved BMS that Thundersky approves. The one you suggested is not on the approved list.
Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA.com
Sorry for getting the URL and the price wrong (but hey, neither was THAT far off, right?). I was going from memory - BIG MISTAKE! :)
However, all you asked was "how can you do this for $1300" and there's your answer. Presumably SP-20 are 6V and 20Ah? Your pack weighs heavier and has half the capacity. The SP-20's also likely has a 500 cycle life rather than a 2000 cycle life. So, we're getting eight times the power (over the life of the pack) for three times the price. Sounds good to me.
I appreciate that SLA's (and especially the newer variants you sell and the really new ones you refer to) might have good applications. However, I still think the example you show only illustrate PJD's point - higher initial investment but better value in the long term. And I still think that two wheel applications need the weight savings and energy density offered to make them salable in today's market.
Or am I missing something?
As far as battery management systems go I grant you that turnkey solutions are sparse right now. But not that much sparser than SLA solutions (I can only think of two SLA solutions off the top of my head - PowerCheq and BattEQ). However, the availability of BMS's for LiFePO4 is beginning to change.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John,
The e-max uses eight 12 volt, 20AH batteries connected in two parallel-connected strings of four for a 40AH capacity. Many users changed it to a string of four parallel pairs.
Eric,
Here's the economics based on my real experience:
Eight greensaver batteries: $396
Typical 80% cycle life: 350 cycles
Typical usable capacity at average 1C discharge: 13AH*0.8 = 10.4 AH
Total cycle life energy 8*12V*10.4AH*350 = 349.4KWH
Cycle life cost: $396/349.4KWH = $1.13 per KWH
16 Thundersky LFP40AHA - $1152 (BMS doesn't wear out, so we won't include it)
Expected conservative 80% cycle life: 1000 cycles
Typical usable capacity at 1C discharge: 36AH*0.8 = 28.8AH
Typical cycle life energy 20C Temp: 16*3.2V*28.8AH*1000 = 1,474.5KWA
Cycle life cost: $1,152/1,474KWA = $0.78 per KWH
So, the LiFePO4 pack is 69% of the cost of the SLA pack.
This does not include the added value of the greatly improved range per charge (about 1.8 times more range than SLA), lighter weight, and ease (and often lower cost) of pack repair. Bad individual cells are readily identified by the BMS and replaced lead acid batteries are replaced in 6-cell units (the battery) when one cell goes bad.
This is a good discussion and probably was done at the Vectrix head quarters before they launched the VX-1E.
Thanks for correcting John on the SP20-12 Greensaver Batteries which is 12volts and they are a 20 amp hour battery @ a 2 hour rate. It should me noted that this battery is also rated at 24 amp hours @ a 20 hour rate the most common rating used in the US.
I have a problem with the typical usable capacity that you are using for your Silicone battery estimate.
I know that I have an electric car with SP100-12 batteries and I run them down 80amps in about and hour and 1/2 and the batteries have away been good with the 80% draw down. So I believe that the SP20 should give you 16 amp during a discharge cycle with out any problem. This would also change you range figure.
I think that some people may use their scooter for occasional use and may not need a lot of cycle life. I have a gas motorcycle and only use it 1,000 miles a year. I suppose it depends on your use of a scooter in determining which batteries you would consider and initial cost is important to.
Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA.com
If initial cost is important to the customer then they probably aren't looking at a $5,195 scooter with a 30mph top speed (VX-2) or a VX-1E for $8,495 which has less speed, less accel, less range and no regen compared to the VX-1.
There's no doubt the VX-1 is a great bike. It's a bike you pay a premium for - and if you pay that premium you expect to get the best available. The VX-1E will likely be the same quality - it will be interesting to see how the VX-2 compares (which is a re-skinned EMax, right?). However, putting lead-acid batteries in a Vectrix is akin to putting a 4 cylinder in a Cadillac. But maybe there are folks lining up to buy an underpowered, overpriced bike ;-)
Now, I do agree that at the very entry level (the $2000 to $3000 mark) there may be room for lead acid as a cost save. However, I think I'd rather put in 20Ah LFP rather than 40Ah of SLA. But no way is SLA reasonable at $5200 and certainly not at $8500.
Vectrix is struggling. I'm afraid their high cost structure is going to bring them down. I don't know if that's "fair" or not - but I think they need to stay as the exclusive high-end brand (with the best technology). Sure, they can be the BMW or Mercedes of the EV bike world - but I don't think they'll be able to compete in the "value" arena. Sad but, IMO, true.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John
I hope they have a Lithium Vectrix soon to add to the fleet. If all the different batteries are in the same Scooter type then time will tell what the consumer will actually buy. I am not sure if you can be sure about the specks of the VX-1E I have read on some articles that is has regen brakes and has a top speed of 62 mph. I am having a hard time getting the true facts.
Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA.com
you might get 16AH out of those SP20-12 if your discharge rate is only 12A (or 24A for two strings).
problem is, thats not alot of power.
on my emax, the best i ever got out of my single 5 battery string was 15AH@100%dod.
continuous was 40A, peak 75A (2C cont, 3.5C peak)
on each ride to work (one way) i would deplete 12AH (80%dod) in 15 minutes.
so PJD's 10.4AH, would be accurate for a pack thats lost a little capacity.
It is true that LiFeePO4 only makes sense when you are doing some serious km (i do 1000km/month. ive put 15'000km on my lithium pack so far, or 375 cycles @80%dod).
it is, however, much harder to make use of the scooter when it has a shorter range.
how many cycles have you put on the batteries in your car?
what setup is your car? (motor, controller, vehicle?)
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Very true. BTW, although we're not planning on offering different chemistries we do plan on offering different capacity packs on our initial bike. I think we're the only manufacturer to do that? This will at least help to answer some range and speed vs. cost questions.
Also very true - I think I put too much trust in that one article.
Diversity in our marketplace is important. As are folks that are committed to the products they sell (as a former customer I can vouch for Erik's business and I do like Greensaver batteries when compared to other SLAs). We may disagree on aspects of the technology but it is an interesting discussion.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I wish Vectrix had gone forward instead backwards.
With this new technology, Vectrix could have 6kWh battery capacity and much higher charge/discharge rates. These new batteries lose 20% capacity after 15.000 cycles.