REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

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jdh2550_1
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Hi All,

The REV 1 product development continues to go well. We're currently working through FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety) requirements. Unless we run into major problems we're targeting June 1st 2009 as the launch date.

The website should be launched by the end of this month (we're still finalizing site design and logos and such). We hope to start allowing reservations / pre-orders in March. Originally we were going to not do pre-orders and only accept money when we could ship product the next day (now there's a concept!). However, to allow us to gauge demand and order the appropriate amount of inventory we've decided to open up pre-orders. There will be a nominal $50 or $100 charge to secure your place in the queue - fully refundable but non-transferable.

The specs can be seen over at this page: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5456-coming-2009-new-maxi-scooter-revolution-electric-vehicles

Now, I have a couple of questions for folks:

1) What should the name be? Should it be REV 1 or REV 5000 or something entirely different?

2) We're considering offering the following options for battery packs:
- 24 * 60Ah pack - this represents the target that we've been developing for
- 20 * 60Ah pack - a lower speed budget version
- 24 * 40Ah pack - a lower range (but same speed) budget version
- 26 * 60Ah pack - a higher speed "deluxe" version

There will likely be between $500 and $250 differential in price between the various configurations. Do you think the variations in those packs are worthwhile? Are those configurations the right choices?

3) What colors should we offer? We likely only want to offer 2 or 3 choices (in fact I'd rather do the Henry Ford thing and say "any color as long as it's black" - but I likely will be overruled there!). We have a wide range of colors to choose from. At present we have one each of silver, blue, red and green - but there are a whole bunch of other colors available to choose from.

BTW, good news on the DC/DC converter. We've decided to opt for a high capacity unit - Erik (Chief Engineer) tells me it should even have enough juice to run a heated electric vest. (Don't) Try that on an XM or even a Vectrix...

We will be publishing more test results and performance figures later in March (we're doing a major road test trip and the weather needs to get a bit better!)

For those in the South East Michigan area (or from further afield if you want a road trip) we'd be happy to show you the bike at our facility and let you see it as it completes final development. If anyone is interested then just drop me a line: john@evmfg.com - we're in Ann Arbor, MI. Now there's another thing you can't do with any of the competition - come and talk with the engineers and technicians actually building the bikes...

Exciting times ahead!

And, as we say around here, "progress is progressing".

All the best - and happy riding.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Oops - I was wrong on the battery packs.

We're also offering 20 * 40Ah - this will be our lowest cost offering (less speed and less range - but less money)

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

antiscab
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

$250-$500 difference isnt alot.
how much would your least expensive option be?
if its around $5k, then for 10% more, you can hve 50% more usability.
the base model might not be worth it.

Matt

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Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Here are the tentative prices:

20 x 40 Ah for $5499
24 x 40 Ah for $5799
20 x 60 Ah for $5999
24 x 60 Ah for $6499
26 x 60 Ah for $6799

Note that an XM-5000Li has a list price of $5999 for 20x60Ah (but our bike has a far better feature set - including proper per-cell BMS, proportional regen, proper AH fuel gauge etc.)

By "tentative" I mean - "if all goes well these are the prices, however if we uncover a major issue that means upgrading or engineering our own part then the price may go up".

BTW - the $250 to $500 difference is "per step" not "from lowest to highest"

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

reikiman
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Color: I want bright because visible==safety and bright is more visible.

Is there room for a sound system? e.g. if you've got a beefy DC-DC why not a sound system? The unfortunate side of that is the easiest to adopt is a car sound system, but the boxes for that are large. Now.. can you imagine a motorcycle with a sound system? It's rarely done because most motorcycles are so noisy, right? This could be an advantage of an electric in that they're so quiet a sound system might be practical.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Bright color: yellow, white, silver, orange, lime green? What would you choose?

Sound system: for the first version this would be a pretty straightforward DIY project for the owner to tackle by themselves. For a future version I want a 'bikeputer' which (among other things) will have MP3 + FM tuner with on board speakers but also with bluetooth audio. But all that comes later - you're on your own for the first version (sorry, it's just a question of priorities)

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

reikiman
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Color: Not silver ... Most silver's in vehicle colors blend in with the same background, same with the brushed gold color. A long time ago I read a science article saying Orange was the most noticeable color, and sure enough emergency vehicles tend to be either bright red or bright orange. White does a great job of standing out in pretty much every condition, especially nighttime when visibility is most important.

Another thought for visibility .. there is this newfangled technology of super reflectivity. There are jackets etc with super reflectivity, and I have some bits of super reflective tape on my motorcycle helmet. What if super reflective stripes were on the bike? If so then the bike could be any color, and the super reflective stripes would handle the visible==safety equation.

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MikeB
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Excellent news, John.

jdh2550_1 wrote:

Bright color: yellow, white, silver, orange, lime green? What would you choose?

My first scooter was a schoolbus-yellow Honda Reflex. It was highly visible, nobody on the road had any excuse to not see me. (see example) I still wear a bright yellow jacket and helmet, even though my scooters aren't yellow anymore. My first choice would be a bright yellow. Of course, I have the added advantage of being a GA Tech alumni living in Atlanta, black & yellow are school colors.

White and silver will both disappear against the background, I would not consider those safety colors. Orange and Lime are also good colors for being seen, as shown by the safety vests worn by highway construction workers. Firetruck-red is also good at getting noticed.

I like the choices in battery pack size, especially the choice for faster but shorter range. Seems like a good spread.

And REV 1 is appropriate, since it's the first in-house designed bike from your company. You could also go with REV 0, since it's a zero-emissions vehicle. If you do REV 5000 to indicate a 5kw motor, then you have to have a new model name for a motor size change. I think you could plan for multiple motor choices just like you have multiple battery pack choices, and still consider it the same bike.

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MikeB
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

reikiman wrote:

Another thought for visibility .. there is this newfangled technology of super reflectivity. There are jackets etc with super reflectivity, and I have some bits of super reflective tape on my motorcycle helmet. What if super reflective stripes were on the bike? If so then the bike could be any color, and the super reflective stripes would handle the visible==safety equation.

Here's a sample of what you are talking about: a flat black bicycle that turns bright white for headlights:
http://gizmodo.com/5113146/retroreflective-bright-bike-looks-black-glows-white-in-headlights

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strawhistle
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

:) }:) ;) :P ;now you'r talking !! as long as the basic frame will hold 26x60Ah cells all you have to do is ,set the batt's for ballance with styrofome.please have lifting ropes for the batt's. keep to that plan ! I would like somthing like floresent ornge ,green , yellowornge , then make flames, labals,stripes out of that tape (black=day,) (white,green or yellow = nignt )and decorate at time of order PIF . You need to make a (click) to photo of prototype and colars and stripes,labals,strips and other choices for us to choose from !! I would drop good money for NO. 1to50 of this this adventure !!! 8)
Can you post projected top speed for the 20c,24c,26c LaTeR

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dshupp
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

I like the sound of REV 1 better. I would probably choose blue, but if you're going to offer only 3 colors, you would want to stick with primary colors (blue, red, white, etc.) I don't know how many black scooters are sold, but it seems like every manufacturer (including the gas scooters) has black or some very dark color. I also think metallic paint looks better than plain paint.

I think the different range/speed options are great. It seems like it would be tough to offer 4 options though. Maybe just 2?

David

astar
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

John,

Here's my 2 cents:

I would probably opt for the 24 batt 60 AH. Color: Red, Blue, Green are all OK. I also like bright colors for safety. I prefer mettalic colors. I would also like prominent stickers saying it's electric - not really a deal breaker, but I like to promote the electric option and let people know that it's become/becoming a viable option. Having a full function BMS is needed, and I'm glad to see you have spec'd one - no BMS is a deal breaker for me.

I like the overall approach, and I think it hits the market needs on the head. The Vectrix is cool too, but they have a more black box approach, and I like the "open source" approach. Best wishes on your venture!!!

-= Alan

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jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Alan - Thanks for the input. As far as the prominent "100% Electric" stickers - we're going to offer these as either a no cost option or include them "in the box" and let the the customer decide if she wants to put them on or not. Probably the second option (easier for us - and if they don't want to stick them on their bike they can always stick them somewhere else!)

If anyone out there has any great ideas for the sticker design then please drop me a line: john@evmfg.com If we use your design we'll figure out a way to compensate you (before you see $$$ signs in your eyes it will likely be a modest compensation to say "thank you")

BTW - I was at the main motorcycle / scooter dealer show at Indianapolis this weekend. Saw LOTS of electric bikes based on the same frame as the XM-3500 & EFun-D. X-Treme was there - RMartin wasn't nor was Electric Motorsport. Also saw the Vekken hybrid scooter (bad idea in my not so humble opinion) and the Vectrix and Emax. Got to speak to one of the main technical guys at Emax. I'll probably write up a summary of what we saw at the show and post it here on V...

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Mik
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

reikiman wrote:

Color: Not silver ... Most silver's in vehicle colors blend in with the same background, same with the brushed gold color. A long time ago I read a science article saying Orange was the most noticeable color, and sure enough emergency vehicles tend to be either bright red or bright orange. White does a great job of standing out in pretty much every condition, especially nighttime when visibility is most important.

Another thought for visibility .. there is this newfangled technology of super reflectivity. There are jackets etc with super reflectivity, and I have some bits of super reflective tape on my motorcycle helmet. What if super reflective stripes were on the bike? If so then the bike could be any color, and the super reflective stripes would handle the visible==safety equation.

Dark green also blends in quite badly.

It really just depends on the number of photons radiated back off.

White (plus reflective material for the night) is best, but might not sell well.

A dark colour will hide you during daytime, no matter how much super-reflective material it has. The super-reflective material just reflects light directly back into the direction that it came from, instead of scattering it about evenly.
This material depends heavily upon a small angle between the headlights and the eyes of the driver - it might leave you invisible to truck or bus drivers!
It's quite amazing when you shine a torch onto a bike jacket with that stuff on it: You need to hold the torch very close to your eyes, or you will not see any reflection.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

As far as color goes - we'll be starting off with just two colors. I'm thinking Yellow will be our high visibility option.

Any votes on what the other color should be?

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

MikeB
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

I'd think a nice solid blue, metallic blue if doesn't add too much to the cost. Very conventional, low-risk type of color.

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dshupp
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Make the 2nd color lightning blue -- it's electric!

zarlor
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

I like black and to heck with the whole safety thing! What can I say? I also like the metallics, silver and gold. Some of the other paint options, though, wouldn't look bad if they are metallic versions or the like. The blues and reds on the XM-series all seem so... plastic.

I was wondering, though, what kind of body style are we looking at here?

Obviously I just bought mine XM-3500Li pretty recently so I'm not necessarily in the market, but that doesn't mean I won't consider seeing if I can sell mine when this one becomes available.

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DaveAK
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

Here are the tentative prices:

20 x 40 Ah for $5499
24 x 40 Ah for $5799
20 x 60 Ah for $5999
24 x 60 Ah for $6499
26 x 60 Ah for $6799

Note that an XM-5000Li has a list price of $5999 for 20x60Ah (but our bike has a far better feature set - including proper per-cell BMS, proportional regen, proper AH fuel gauge etc.)

By "tentative" I mean - "if all goes well these are the prices, however if we uncover a major issue that means upgrading or engineering our own part then the price may go up".

BTW - the $250 to $500 difference is "per step" not "from lowest to highest"

Are these prices looking realistic, or have you had to revise them at all?

jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Dave - these are still looking realistic. We should be opening up for reservations ($100 to secure a spot in the build queue) in the next couple of days. The date is now tracking at mid-June.

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DaveAK
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st ...

Sounds good!! I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. :)

PJD
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

John,

I assume the lower voltage versions will be upgradable? - Or will a different battery box (and electronics?) be needed?

dshupp
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

I'd like to see performance specs like acceleration for the various versions.

David

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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

well i like this bike let me know when its ready to go id like to come out and see it
as for options id stick with the deluxe..dont know why you offer it with the less battery options anyway..but hey thats just me..
as for color reds nice in metallic of course..and blue...every joes got black..chrome the sidepipes..lol

all kidding aside i think you guys will do real good and hopefully we can see it in canada..

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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

PJD wrote:

John,

I assume the lower voltage versions will be upgradable? - Or will a different battery box (and electronics?) be needed?

We do four versions 20 x 40Ah, 20 x 60Ah, 24 x 60Ah, 30 x 60Ah. The 20 cell versions can be upgraded to 24 cells - there will need to be an update of the software in the BCU (bike control unit) - we'll probably handle that for a nominal charge by sending the unit back to us. Although we might make it field upgradeable.

To go to the 30 cell you will need a new controller and additional battery box. Upgrading will be possible but more involved. Not quite sure yet how we'll support an upgrade to 30 cells.

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

wolf3510 wrote:

dont know why you offer it with the less battery options anyway..but hey thats just me..

Hey, I'm all for "any color as long as it's red and any pack size as long as it's 24" - but you guys always want something different and "customer is king"...

:-)

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

Went out to Current Motor Company last Tuesday. Did some tire kicking and took their red bike out for a run (the one in the video). Got to meet the crew and get in their way as they work on their new bikes. I am pretty impressed. They didn't have the xm-3500 at the shop Tuesday so I couldn't do a side by side or test ride of it. My memory of my Vectrix ride last fall is getting pretty faded at this point so I really can’t compare that way either. The test ride proved to be a nice feeling and looking maxi scooter that appears to lives up to the specs on the web site. It had good pickup and cranked right up to fifty mph before I let off. I was test riding and side road and ran out of road before running out of speed.
Like always John and his gang are very open and allowed me to snoop thru the shop and look at a glider and another bike in the nude. It appears I didn't pester them with all my questions and they are a very fun bunch to be around.
I think they have a winner going here and if you are ever near Ann Arbor Michigan, I recommend stopping in and checking them out. I’m sure John will go out of his way to let you see his dream and share in it as he did with me.
Better yet, get on the list for one. For me, my wallet is always lighter than it needs to be, so all I can do is wish, dream, and of course kick some tires.

PJD
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

John,

It looks like a summer has come and gone, and no scooter. Can you give us an update?

jdh2550_1
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

Hi Paul,

It's true - we're late. We're real close now. ETA is just 2 more weeks until first delivery.

I'm looking forward to the launch party! ;-)

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strawhistle
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Re: REV 1 Product Update - Estimated Availability June 1st 2009

Ya High, I was just wondering, Have you delivered any of your rev-1 's ? I know you have a buyer for the delux one next spring ! LaTeR

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