Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

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marcopolo
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Well, yes... JDH it's true that hybrids are not an ideal solution from an aesthetic or engineering point of view, but from a marketing perspective, maybe Vectrix should have at least offered a hybrid option to gain market acceptance.I don't know if it is even possible but I was thinking of a small, light motor that would supplement battery power during peak periods of battery stress, thereby extending the charge life of the battery? Well, as I say that may not be practical, I clearly studied law not engineering!!

Vectrix, and this is very much to the point of the this thread, both as a company and a product, has simply failed to attract enough buyers to remain viable! Already the European factory is closed and the UK listed entity has suspended trading, effectively wiping out the corporate capital base, the US entity is desperately seeking some method of an orderly sale for stock value only in a bid. Vectrix as a brand is defunct, and the lessons to be learnt from the products demise are enormously valuable in furthering the advancement of EV development.

marcopolo

jmap
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Well, yes... JDH it's true that hybrids are not an ideal solution from an aesthetic or engineering point of view, but from a marketing perspective, maybe Vectrix should have at least offered a hybrid option to gain market acceptance.I don't know if it is even possible but I was thinking of a small, light motor that would supplement battery power during peak periods of battery stress, thereby extending the charge life of the battery? Well, as I say that may not be practical, I clearly studied law not engineering!!

Vectrix, and this is very much to the point of the this thread, both as a company and a product, has simply failed to attract enough buyers to remain viable! Already the European factory is closed and the UK listed entity has suspended trading, effectively wiping out the corporate capital base, the US entity is desperately seeking some method of an orderly sale for stock value only in a bid. Vectrix as a brand is defunct, and the lessons to be learnt from the products demise are enormously valuable in furthering the advancement of EV development.

That project existed: http://ilbcnu.org/file_share/vectrixfuelcellhybrid.pdf
Like many others (from Vectrix) didn'thave a real start. Some were bad some were good, this one was one of the best!

Mik
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Vectrix as a brand is defunct, and the lessons to be learnt from the products demise are enormously valuable in furthering the advancement of EV development.

Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and detailed descriptions of your understanding of what is - and has been - going on with Vectrix!
I did not find any inconsistencies with the small part of the picture that I have been able to see.

There might be one facet of the history that escaped you, though:

I was astonished to discover that no member of Vectrix management or service engineering has ever visited Australia to support its struggling distributor, the US parent is only represented by a retained firm of lawyers!

As far as I know, at one stage Vectrix Australia seemed to have had a visitor, if I remember correctly he was supposed to come along to do the battery rework on my Vectrix. It might however not have been an official Vectrix person. I never got to find out, because Vectrix Australia had by that time canceled the warranty . ("The directors after a meeting regarding your bike have been forced by your actions to Void your bikes warranty...")
I never asked them which "directors" they meant. By that time I had had enough of Vectrix Australia breaking my bike during their service ad repair attempt! They were asking thousands of dollars to repair the damage which they had caused during the previous service attempt. So I refused to let them touch my bike again, renamed it "Vectux" and repaired it myself. I'm very glad I did! I think I am in a much better position now than I would be in if I had just suffered in silence. And trying to take them to court over it would just have been a disaster.

And now each time something breaks on the Vectux, it gets fixed in public, so anyone can learn from it. I hope it helps a lot of people in a variety of ways!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

jmap
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

(...)And now each time something breaks on the Vectux, it gets fixed in public, so anyone can learn from it. I hope it helps a lot of people in a variety of ways!

:-) I think that I talk for all of us, that we deeply thank you for your posture and your work!
I think that your work deserves to be arranged and published in a good site with a good interface, like for instance www.vectrixfan.com that could turn out to be the #1 reference for Vectrix owners in trouble. The web developer (also member of this forum) already proofed to be competent, maybe he can contribute to rearrange all the information that you have been publishing in this forum, with of course, your authorization and help.

Keep on the good work (sorry my English)...

ElectricLou
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?
(...)And now each time something breaks on the Vectux, it gets fixed in public, so anyone can learn from it. I hope it helps a lot of people in a variety of ways!

:-) I think that I talk for all of us, that we deeply thank you for your posture and your work!
I think that your work deserves to be arranged and published in a good site with a good interface, like for instance www.vectrixfan.com that could turn out to be the #1 reference for Vectrix owners in trouble. The web developer (also member of this forum) already proofed to be competent, maybe he can contribute to rearrange all the information that you have been publishing in this forum, with of course, your authorization and help.

Keep on the good work (sorry my English)...

I agree, Mik has done an outstanding job of providing information. It is a little hard to find on this site, would be nice if it was somewhere arranged by subject. I see Mik is trying to document into a sort of manual. Putting all the info by subject (for instance, Batteries, Motor, Controller, Charger, Etc), would be helpful as a person could search just those areas looking for the info he (or She) needs. I also appreciate all the info by other posters as well. I registered on that site also, looks nice so far.

Mik
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I see Mik is trying to document into a sort of manual.

What I am really trying to do is get people to collaborate on the project. The section of VisforVoltage is called "Collaborative Handbooks" for a reason!

So far I am failing miserably!

But that's all off topic, and maybe we can stay on track this once.....

.

This might get us back on track:

How much longer can any warranty work and warranty parts reasonably be expected?

How are the dealers / service persons remunerated for their time when they perform service or repairs under warranty?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marcopolo
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

In reply to Mik, I believe that the Mr Alex Bamberg, the UK General Manager was due to visit the Australian distributor, with a technical support team, but the visit was cancelled on the orders of Mike Boyle, who's policy was it that it was cheaper to fight service problems legally, than to actually provide service support. In the dispute that followed this approach to Alex Bamberg and most of the original Vectrix were fired or resigned. Oddly enough,Mike Boyales approach is not that unusual a type of US corporate exec. Remember the Ford and GM debacles of the '70's& 80's?

The warranty offers were economically irresponsible in the first place and it sounds like Mik's Australian distributor was very naive to even contemplate attempting to live up to the US parents ill-conceived policy. However, I may be being very unfair to the Australian distributor. It is very likely that they were promised extensive US support and very low service/failure/defect rates. I do know that the world distributors were promised rebates to help pay for the cost of servicing and free supply of spare parts. this policy was unofficially discontinued with the arrival of Mike Boyle, and substituted with a policy of legal denials of any service problems.If the warranty service model is uneconomic here in the UK, it's not hard to understand the problems of servicing a low volume selling product across a continent the size of Australia!

I am not saying that Mik is wrong to expect to get what he was promised, but I am agreeing with him, when he says that attempting to legally enforce what is obviously undeliverable, would just be throwing good money after bad.

As to what will happen to the supply of spare parts and servicing? Well better hope that Mik writes his manual! It will very much depends on who purchases the remnants of Vectrix. There must be a fair stockpile of spare parts and most of the mechanical Vectrix is replaceable from either Piaggio or generic suppliers. Batteries, chargers and other electrical component can be sourced and advice can be sought form enthusiasts like Mik, who are kind and dedicated enough to share there valuable input for free!

Who will cover the cost, ... Ah, well I suspect it will be you, the consumer!!

But hey, but maybe I'm too cynical! Maybe even now the Vectrix CEO, and in house Attorney are devoting their payouts and trust funds to setting up "Boyle and Mier", the "no profit, beyond vectrix, service company" in their Manhattan/Long Island living rooms!!!!! but, then again, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting!

marcopolo

Mik
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

As to what will happen to the supply of spare parts and servicing? Well better hope that Mik writes his manual! It will very much depends on who purchases the remnants of Vectrix. There must be a fair stockpile of spare parts and most of the mechanical Vectrix is replaceable from either Piaggio or generic suppliers.
.
......
...

But hey, but maybe I'm too cynical! Maybe even now the Vectrix CEO, and in house Attorney are devoting their payouts and trust funds to setting up "Boyle and Mier", the "no profit, beyond vectrix, service company" in their Manhattan/Long Island living rooms!!!!! but, then again, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting!

And they must also be merely seconds away from giving all Vectrix owners access to the already existing service handbook!

No need for me or anyone to write one, people just need to be allowed to read the existing one!

This is where it is: www.vectrixservice.com

I doubt that it contains any information on how to maintain the VX1 without original parts, or how to repair anything at a component level.

But I think every dealer / service agent has access to this manual.

Vectrix owners, in my opinion, are morally entitled to be given access to this resource.

Legally this is probably an entirely different matter!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marcopolo
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Hmmm... that a very interesting point Mik. Although the copyright of the manual may rest with Vectix Corp, it would be very unlikely that they would dare to try to enforce the copyright against a bike owner. But this may well be part of the assets of Vectrix in the advent of receivership. Still difficult to see how they would mount an argument for loss though!!

My sources tell me that the service manual does not contain the computer codes to the bikes computer, and that these were never provided to the dealers/distributors.

I believe the Vectrix UK, Euro, Poland, Australia, and various other shareholders, creditors and distributors are joining forces in a legal action against US parent for a place at the table in the winding up of Vectrix Corp. This is interesting as it may prevent the corporate irregularities simply being covered up as the US system often allows. This consortium also hopes to revive the brand and recommence manufacture at the Polish factory.

I would wish them luck, but in my opinion it would just be another under-capitalized failure. The real hope is that a South Korean corporation is successful in buying the technology and developing a EV product as part of an existing product range.

marcopolo

Mik
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Hmmm... that a very interesting point Mik. Although the copyright of the manual may rest with Vectix Corp, it would be very unlikely that they would dare to try to enforce the copyright against a bike owner. But this may well be part of the assets of Vectrix in the advent of receivership. Still difficult to see how they would mount an argument for loss though!!

But even the court proceedings could be devastating for an individual, if up against a large corporation (like a future buyer of Vectrix Corp).
A potential argument for loss could be that their monopoly would be gone, and therefore they would need to compete against other service providers. People would be able to take their Vectrix for repairs where they get value for money. That could only be an official Vectrix service if the software is not publicly available. The dealers might have been promised an ongoing income stream from customers unable to take their VX1 anywhere else!

My sources tell me that the service manual does not contain the computer codes to the bikes computer, and that these were never provided to the dealers/distributors.

It is probably correct that they are not in the online service manual, because as far as I was told the updates to the scooter software are emailed to the dealers, so that they can update the software in the scooter before delivery of new scooters or during servicing / repairs to already sold scooters. The so called "Scooter Diagnostics" software program was used by the Vectrix technician to update the programs after the fuse repair on my Vectux. It looked as if it was running on a laptop PC with a standard Windows OS.
One of it's functions is to establish a link with the scooters microprocessors through the USB/Can interface and then upload data packets to the scooter. This photo was taken during this process in early 2008, the software revisions shown are still running in the Vectux today://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/CANBUS/th_DSC03212SoftwareScreenshot1.jpg)
As you can see by looking at the tabs in the Scooter Diagnostics window, the program has many more functions (unless they are disabled, of for future use only).
From the very numerous posts on this and other forums (mentioning that the "flying technicians" updated the software, or that the dealers did the same,) I conclude that the Scooter Diagnostics software is also widely distributed among dealers and technicians. Maybe it is also emailed (or sent on a disk), as an installer executable file or something similar.
There seems to be another layer of programming in parts of the VX1, which cannot be modified except in the factory. See this post: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6031-can-bus#comment-35552

I believe the Vectrix UK, Euro, Poland, Australia, and various other shareholders, creditors and distributors are joining forces in a legal action against US parent for a place at the table in the winding up of Vectrix Corp. This is interesting as it may prevent the corporate irregularities simply being covered up as the US system often allows. This consortium also hopes to revive the brand and recommence manufacture at the Polish factory.

I would wish them luck, but in my opinion it would just be another under-capitalized failure. The real hope is that a South Korean corporation is successful in buying the technology and developing a EV product as part of an existing product range.

It becomes more and more interesting!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marcopolo
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Wow mik, you really have studied your Vectrix ! I agree that court proceedings are never desirable, but in this instance the court would be sympathetic since the dealers/distributors themselves are abandoning any pretence of honouring the onerous warranties originally promised and if the claimed exclusive right to post-warranty repairs would be compelled to honour the inherent manufacture warranty obligations of Vcorp.

As to the rest, I believe you are correct, for simple repairs the software upgrades were probably sent by VCorp as software programs, but the major diagnostics were a closely guarded secret. I believe that the impracticality of the 'flying service' concept first began to breakdown in Australia, Spain, Parts of the USA and South Africa. In the UK and Europe,the distance and logistics were easier, but even so it does take a genius to work out that providing roadside assistance to less than 100 units spread across area the size of Europe is uneconomic, let alone area the vast size of Australia. As I understand, from your posts you would appear to live in North Queensland, and Vectrix Australia is based in Melbourne, Victoria! Now I may have it wrong, but on my last visit to Downunder, this is the equivalent distance of London to Cairo !

Which, is why I stated that any mass-volume EV maker should possess an already established network of service agents.

marcopolo

garygid
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Maybe some going-out-of-business or current Vectrix dealer will tell us what is/was available on the dealer site, and perhaps save a copy of everything.

After all, this dealer web site could be closed at any moment.

IMO, as part of discontinuing warranty (and paid) service, the courts should compell Vectrix to make all the service-related information pubically available.

Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.

Mik
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Wow mik, you really have studied your Vectrix ! I agree that court proceedings are never desirable, but in this instance the court would be sympathetic since the dealers/distributors themselves are abandoning any pretence of honouring the onerous warranties originally promised and if the claimed exclusive right to post-warranty repairs would be compelled to honour the inherent manufacture warranty obligations of Vcorp.

Good point! At least in Australia the warranty obligations do not seem to be met since several months now. I'm not talking about my own scooter here, but about several others with apparent battery problems. But even if one would probably win, it would cause stress and potentially financial ruin to get dragged into a court case by some financial heavyweight. They might not want to win it, just drag it out.

As to the rest, I believe you are correct, for simple repairs the software upgrades were probably sent by VCorp as software programs, but the major diagnostics were a closely guarded secret. I believe that the impracticality of the 'flying service' concept first began to breakdown in Australia, Spain, Parts of the USA and South Africa. In the UK and Europe,the distance and logistics were easier, but even so it does take a genius to work out that providing roadside assistance to less than 100 units spread across area the size of Europe is uneconomic, let alone area the vast size of Australia. As I understand, from your posts you would appear to live in North Queensland, and Vectrix Australia is based in Melbourne, Victoria! Now I may have it wrong, but on my last visit to Downunder, this is the equivalent distance of London to Cairo !

Which, is why I stated that any mass-volume EV maker should possess an already established network of service agents.

I am actually in South-East Queensland, on the Gold Coast. But that still means a 4000km round trip for servicing to Melbourne.
The Twike seems to be a long-term EV success story, they give out all the schematics and instructions with the vehicles and provide email support to owners or to the owners chosen repair service people. So there is an alternative to a dealer network, but it limits how many you can sell. Still, they had a long waiting list for Twike orders last time I looked.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2819-anywun-wide-twike

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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