Maximum kilometres or miles

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RaDy
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I just wanted to ask what is the maximum kilometres or miles that an owner has reached? Maybe this can shed a light of hope to new owners like myself of what is possible untill now.
Thankyou

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AndY1
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

I'm nearing 4000km now.

RaDy
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Thanks Andy1, i forgot to say i had 2.600Km.
Does anyone have 10.000 or 15.000?

Mik
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

RaDy wrote:

Thanks Andy1, i forgot to say i had 2.600Km.
Does anyone have 10.000 or 15.000?

I'd still like to know what the record with a single battery is, so far!

That is in my opinion the most important number, because the battery is both the most expensive part of the Vectrix, and the limiting factor for the overall range.

I'm getting close to 9000km with the original battery now.

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Elektro
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles
myvectrix2008
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Is the life expectancy of the Ni-MH battery quoted as 10 years/50,000 miles? Of course, that would assume the right operating conditions with correct storage procedures and no constantly high discharges.

antiscab
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

myvectrix2008 wrote:

Is the life expectancy of the Ni-MH battery quoted as 10 years/50,000 miles?

There are liars, damned liars and then there are battery salesmen.
it is possible to get 50k miles service life, but there are many things you have to do, and not do to achieve that.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Wotnopetrol
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

I've mentioned this before here, I have no reservations about the longevity of NiMh batteries if looked after. I have (don't laugh) an electric toothbrush which is NiMh and is 14 years old and still working. The charger is a very slow one though. I don't know the capacity of the cells, nor the charge rate but it's a 14 hour charge, so I imagine the cells don't warm up much. It's probably a trickle charge, enough so that it can remain on charge all the time. Strange because I thought that slow charging, such as well under 1C was bad for NiMh.

So I know very well that this type of battery can last a good long time, but who knows, the way we use our V battery pack is very different from a toothbrush, we must put a much higher demand on our cells.

One strange thing is that when I had the software upgrade (downgrade?) my mileage was slashed by 25 miles, which was actually in half, but now it's creeping up, which is very encouraging.

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DJP
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

I have a Honda Insight which is 8 years old, has done 110000 miles and averaged 85 miles to the gallon. The NiMH batteries still seem to perform a well a ever.

reikiman
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

antiscab wrote:
myvectrix2008 wrote:

Is the life expectancy of the Ni-MH battery quoted as 10 years/50,000 miles?

There are liars, damned liars and then there are battery salesmen.
it is possible to get 50k miles service life, but there are many things you have to do, and not do to achieve that.

Matt

In addition to the Honda Insight mentioned earlier - the Toyota RAV-4-EV was warrantied for 100,000 miles on the battery pack. That was the warranty. Some RAV-4-EV owners are nearing or gone over that range and I believe generally get 100,000 miles or more. Those are NiMH. A friend has one and IIRC he's got 80,000 miles on his.

Unlike the Insight the RAV-4-EV is pure electric so those miles are pure electric mode.

However if you know your NiMH history, you know that Energy Conversion Devices (and Chevron) sued Toyota and others over their use of NiMH in vehicles. All of ECD's NiMH patent licenses had clauses denying their use in vehicles (so I learned from reading old ECD quarterly SEC filings). The suit was eventually won by ECD and COBASYS (Chevron Ovonics Battery System) has also refused others to sell NiMH batteries for vehicle use.

The reliable NiMH technology developed for the RAV-4-EV cannot be used by anybody else because of ECD/Chevron/COBASYS licensing terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

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antiscab
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Wotnopetrol wrote:

I've mentioned this before here, I have no reservations about the longevity of NiMh batteries if looked after. I have (don't laugh) an electric toothbrush which is NiMh and is 14 years old and still working.

Yeh ive got one of those aswell, mines only 6 years old though
Ni-Mh can last a long time.

this is *much* easier to achieve as a single cell.
as a pack in series, you need a BMS that monitors and intervenes at the cell level to keep the cells within their limits (Low voltage, high voltage, temperature, max overcharge current, etc)
The Vectrix in stock form doesn't do this.
The RAV4 EV does to some extent (by active cooling and a bulk charge rate below the max overcharge limit)

With attentive maintenance, you can get good service life by making sure no cell gets taken beyond its limits yourself.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Wotnopetrol
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

antiscab wrote:

this is *much* easier to achieve as a single cell.Matt

Agreed, though I think the toothbrush (haha, I should use THAT for transport!) may have a couple of cells.

antiscab wrote:

as a pack in series, you need a BMS that monitors and intervenes at the cell level to keep the cells within their limits (Low voltage, high voltage, temperature, max overcharge current, etc)
The Vectrix in stock form doesn't do this.Matt

Hopefully the Vectrix now with the new software, won't allow a dangerous level of discharge. (or full charge) I would be happier if each cell were monitored and charged individually, but they are grouped in blocks of 10 I understand?

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Mik
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Wotnopetrol wrote:

Hopefully the Vectrix now with the new software, won't allow a dangerous level of discharge. (or full charge) I would be happier if each cell were monitored and charged individually, but they are grouped in blocks of 10 I understand?

6 x 8 cells in the front, 6 x 9 cells in the back battery.

Only the first 27 cell and the last 27 cell aggregate voltages are monitored.

Individual cell monitoring is not neccessary, but blocks of 5 or 6 instead of 48 (front battery). Maybe blocks of of 9 cells would be enough, I might test that one day.

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mejensen
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

reikiman wrote:

In addition to the Honda Insight mentioned earlier - the Toyota RAV-4-EV was warrantied for 100,000 miles on the battery pack. That was the warranty. Some RAV-4-EV owners are nearing or gone over that range and I believe generally get 100,000 miles or more. Those are NiMH. A friend has one and IIRC he's got 80,000 miles on his.

I own a Rav4EV, and the car was warrantied for 60,000 miles and 6 years. Unfortunately all of the Rav's were sold before 2003 and are now beyond the warranties. There are no replacement batteries for these cars because of the Chevron Cobasys legal maneuvering to try to kill electric cars. I have 70,000 miles on mine and the batteries have shown no evidence of deterioration. There are some owners who have passed 100,000 miles and have begun to experience reduced range. There is an outfit here in Calif. that is having some success in reconditioning these batteries. Let's kill Chevron.

AndY1
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

If those RAV4EVs survive until 2015, their owners might get a new pack of NiMH batteries from Panasonic, because Chevron's (Cobasys') patent expires at Dec 31st 2014.

siai47
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

A little OT but Cobasys is about done. Defective batteries sold to GM (9000 vehicles recalled). Failure to deliver batteries to Daimler for a hybrid and a $9,000,000 lawsuit. Arbitration ongoing between Energy Conversions and Chevron about what to do about their wayward child. Now that GM has no interst in buying Cobasys (and couldn't do it anyway with their pending death)---Chevron is about to sue Cobasys for $165,000,000! Maybe Chevron can make NiMH technology go away forever. When all the smoke has cleared, Chevron will cling to the NiMH patent and make sure it still isn't used for electric vehicles. I think, along with many others, destroying this technology was Chevron's goal from the start--they never did anything to make their own (Cobasys) battery anywhere near as good as the Panasonic prismatic design. With the Panasonic lawsuit settled for over $30,000,00 they sure made money on their investment while closing the door on highway capable electric vehicles. As a Vectrix and Rav4 EV owner, I have been very satisfied with the performance of the NiMH battery. I still am mystified as to how GP ever got the license to build the large format NiMH batteries for the Vectrix in light of Chevron's 10ah size limitation--but am happy they did. I just hold my nose and give a one finger salute any time I drive by a Chevron station and pray for the day they will be looking for a bailout!

Wotnopetrol
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Big business surely can sometimes be utterly disgusting. It is time governments stepped in and "took" the patent away for the good of the world.
Imagine if one of us were clever enough to come up with an invention such as anti-grav, patented it and wouldn't let anyone have it for whatever reason. I'm sure the invention would be taken away "for the good of mankind" as it would be too good to go to waste. Well aren't battery powered electric vehicles in a similar category?

I too put a symbolic two fingers up at every petrol station I pass and giggle with smugness.
Until I go and fill my ICE car up! LOL. But that's only 6-8 times a year as I cycle mostly and use the Vectrix.

I have a big PONR journey tomorrow, 62 miles round trip. Nice when your friend pays for the return journey. But he's happy to.

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RaDy
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Back to the question, has anyone done 10.000 or 15.000 Kms so far?(In 1 Vectrix)

Mik
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

I cannot find it!

Could anyone who speaks Italian have a look and maybe ask how many batteries were used during the 21000km?

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jmap
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

There is a guy, also member of this forum that has more than 11500km, 6500km of these with the latest pack of batteries. He says that his batteries are like new. He does 60km by day with her... Here it is an old photo (proof):

jmap
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Mik wrote:

I cannot find it!

Could anyone who speaks Italian have a look and maybe ask how many batteries were used during the 21000km?

There is no place in that post that talks about 21000km. You can see for yourself with automatic translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=pt-PT&js=n&u=http://www.energeticambiente.it/discussioni-specifiche-per-veicolo...

pengo
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

jmap wrote:
Mik wrote:

I cannot find it!

Could anyone who speaks Italian have a look and maybe ask how many batteries were used during the 21000km?

There is no place in that post that talks about 21000km. You can see for yourself with automatic translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=pt-PT&js=n&u=http://www.energeticambiente.it/discussioni-specifiche-per-veicolo...

You have to download the jpg posted by the user grillino75, the image shows 20.000 kms, but that was over a month ago

In this message he announces that he reached 21.000 kms:

http://www.energeticambiente.it/discussioni-specifiche-per-veicolo/3588840-moto_elettrica-vectrix-scooter-tecnica-autonomia-prob...

In fact he's on his second set of batteries, he changed the first one after 13.000 kms

http://www.energeticambiente.it/discussioni-specifiche-per-veicolo/3588840-moto_elettrica-vectrix-scooter-tecnica-autonomia-prob...

Mik
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

I think he is on his third set of batteries:

5) date replacement bat (if applicable)
1a volta a 5000km per richiamo della casa 1st time for a 5000km call home
2a volta a 13500 causa sospetta rottura di una cella dovuta al vecchio sw che permetteva lo scaricamento eccessivo della batteria e suriscaldamento in fase di ricarica 2nd time at 13,500 suspected cause breakage of a cell due to the old software that allows downloading of the battery and excessive suriscaldamento being charged

http://www.energeticambiente.it/discussioni-specifiche-per-veicolo/14713874-moto_elettrica-elenco-esperienze-con-vectrix.html#po...

Sorry about that Google translator gibberish....

But this means that the Vectux is (to my best knowledge) still ahead with the distance traveled on a single battery!
Grillino75 now has about 21000km, minus 13500km since last battery replacement = 7500km.

The Vectux now has over 9000km with the "original" battery.

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pengo
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

You're actually right Mik, 3rd set of batteries. For what concerns the distance traveled on a single battery, Grillino75 was at 21000 kms about one month ago, therefore he should be around 22000 now, you'd better drive the vectux day and night to keep yourself ahead... :)

Mik
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

pengo wrote:

You're actually right Mik, 3rd set of batteries. For what concerns the distance traveled on a single battery, Grillino75 was at 21000 kms about one month ago, therefore he should be around 22000 now, you'd better drive the vectux day and night to keep yourself ahead... :)

This is a "Hare and Tortoise Race"!

I am working on a different approach: Charging only as much as needed, avoiding all heating of the battery, and staying well within the capabilities of the weak cells most of the time!

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pengo
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Just kidding Mik!
I guess that the only way to preserve the batteries is to behave like you do, I read the same on the italian forum, people treating the Vectrix gently are having less problems and higher autonomy (the highest number of kms on a single charge is 102 kms, not bad at all) and I remember also Grillino writing that he almost never exceeded 75 km/h.

Then we should discuss whether this kind of ideal behaviour was referred upon vectrix sales, but that's OT here!

Mik
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

pengo wrote:

Just kidding Mik!
I guess that the only way to preserve the batteries is to behave like you do, I read the same on the italian forum, people treating the Vectrix gently are having less problems and higher autonomy (the highest number of kms on a single charge is 102 kms, not bad at all) and I remember also Grillino writing that he almost never exceeded 75 km/h.

That will not be possible for me!

I have to go 80km/h to 90km/h on most of my daily commute, including long uphill stretches.

And the occasional "EV advocacy showoff", of course...Hehehe!

Don't want to give EV's a bad name by looking like I'm riding an "Electric Toy Scooter" on the road. ;-)

The vast majority of the 9200km I've done on the Vectux has been high demand driving. Maybe 500km have been very gentle driving for getting extra range, the rest flowing with, or preferably ahead of the traffic!

Treating the battery gently for me means cooling it extensively before and after charging and after riding when needed. It's basically always needed when the battery temp is above 25degC and the surrounding air is cooler than that.

Recently I have started to just charge until "mid-tr", then stop. There is very little battery warming that way. I have done this 5 times in succession; the full recharge after that was different from all other charges I have seen: During tr the needle showed "Zero", and after CC the charger turned off immediately, no EC charge. I guess it was due to the cool temperatures and the 24degC battery temperature.

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Paul
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

I have 105903KM on the original batteries...........
But I also have recently had a cell or two fail.
Currently range is perhaps 10KM. Top speed is 60KM max and the battery light comes on within first 200m.

A regular 21.7KM trip twice a day to work, I thought all was sweet, but it's all gone pear-shaped now and the dealer doesn't seem to have anything to offer.

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eyeinthesky
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Hi All. suppose I'll put my my two cent worth in
You got one too many numbers in yours Paul.
Gee I sorta feel responsible for encouraging you to get the scooter,
I now turn interested people off this Vectrix,until we get a more positive product.
Anyway I got 4000klms on my first bike and have 19,500klms on current bike
and like Paul I am losing distance and power with no solution from our dealer.
BUT...... my travelling expenses has only been four tyres and $500 in power,
if not for the service and warranties in the past, I would have gone through $$$$$$
the problem might be software related, but as this issue has been dragging on for 6 months now
I reckon batteries are dying one by one.
Do you Mic, know where I can buy an interface cable? (bike to PC)
I'm going back to the older firmware version.
when by scooter was more like a vehicle instead of a toy.

Peter

AndY1
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Paul wrote:

I have 105903KM on the original batteries...........
But I also have recently had a cell or two fail.
Currently range is perhaps 10KM. Top speed is 60KM max and the battery light comes on within first 200m.

This is exactly where I'm currently at:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6462-bathot-during-riding-battery-fans-won039t-start-during-ride-why-not

RaDy
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Re: Maximum kilometres or miles

Cool, that many of us have posted kms clocked.
I think we can deduce by all the info from these posts, that with one set of batteries we can do around 15.000Kms without too many problems and then probably 10.000 more with lots of problems!!!
Shouldnt we be already buying spare Batteries, now that Vectrix still has plenty of them in stock??

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