nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

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Joined: 06/17/2009
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Hello,

I've got myself some 800w 48v electric scooter a year ago, use it for closeby work and shopping trips, problem is with the 45km/h speed, i'm constantly in the way of traffic and badly need a 5-10km/h boost so that everyone doesnt have to pass me.
I was searching around and found out nice kellycontrollers with regen abilities and all cute configuration optins but thats 200$ that i cant currently afford right away, and hey i've got a working scooter, so maybe somebody knows where and what limits me, took some pictures.
I didnt find anything seemingly simple like jumpers.

i'll upload front and rear view of controller board

http://yfrog.com/0aimg4161njx

is there anything to pass simply or it requires programming thats beyond my tools?

thanks for your time, if you know this stuff.
If closer pictures of details required that can help, please do tell

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Joined: 06/11/2009
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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

You probably need more volts, and it would probably cost a lot more than $200 to do it right. At the very least you might be able to add one battery to up the volts, but it might fry your controller or motor or both.

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

Well i figured that this 45km/h limiter is not just battery power but controller limit too, i would not mind a little range drop for the added speed (when i use it, doesnt mean i must use full throttle, just need it possible), extra battery is good too i'm sure but yeah that again costs a little.

Does the shunts have something to do with limited power sent to motor? i see two with holes for third.. heres a pic

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2386/img4168a.jpg

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

It just seems to me that even on a brushless motor geared for speed, 27mph is fairly fast for 48v. Have you looked into changing the gear ratio in order to sacrifice torque for top speed? That might be an option, but get some1 elses opinion. I'm no expert.

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

xmasta wrote:

Well i figured that this 45km/h limiter is not just battery power but controller limit too, i would not mind a little range drop for the added speed (when i use it, doesnt mean i must use full throttle, just need it possible), extra battery is good too i'm sure but yeah that again costs a little.

Does the shunts have something to do with limited power sent to motor? i see two with holes for third.. heres a pic

some controllers have an explicit max speed programmed in (basically above this speed, power = 0)
if your controller is programmed this way, either you change the gearing, or ditch the controller and get a new one (the kellys ones are top notch IMO)

if you are limited by back-emf, then you will need a higher voltage battery pack, and maybe a new controller anyway.
most "48v" controllers will run fine with a 60v battery pack. some go snap crackle and pop. YMMV.
my original emax 48v controller i ran at 60v for 15'000km before failing (and even then i suspect the motor failed first causing a cascade failure)

the shunt mod increases the battery side current limit enforced by the controller. This gives you faster acceleration, but has no effect on top speed.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

thank you for explaining, more accel is not important indeed, so i guess adding additional 12v battery is my best option.
I read about "omg full 12v batteries are actually 14.x at fresh load totalling 72v omg" - is there some simple resistor to use to prevent anything above 60v entering the controller circuit, or some descent guide you know?
I've seen some "oh happy joy i installed a kit" threads but that doesnt explain anything about wiring and so on.
I'd prefer some do it yourself version, adding a battery is not so much rocketscience..
also, i dont care about dc-dc converter, wrong insulation + rainwater burned mine very early on and i have little extra battery for lights.

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Joined: 12/01/2006
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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

That looks like a pretty solid controller. Maddeningly, the voltage limits on the caps are not visible in the otherwise tack-sharp picture. If the caps are rated for, say, 100V, then there are just the SCR's to check. You can look the device numbers up and find their voltage rating.

If the components can take it, boosting the voltage shouldn't be too dangerous. (The DC-DC will also have to deal with the higher voltage.)

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Joined: 06/27/2009
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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

I've probably got the same scooter as xmasta. 48v 800w. However, my top speed is obviously limited to 25mph.

The speed is the same if I am going up a hill or if there are two people on the scooter, so I do not think 25 is really the top speed. Is there something I can do to remove the speed limit?

I will pull out the controller sometime and take pictures, but it is buried pretty far beneath plastic.

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

mf70 wrote:

That looks like a pretty solid controller. Maddeningly, the voltage limits on the caps are not visible in the otherwise tack-sharp picture. If the caps are rated for, say, 100V, then there are just the SCR's to check. You can look the device numbers up and find their voltage rating.

If the components can take it, boosting the voltage shouldn't be too dangerous. (The DC-DC will also have to deal with the higher voltage.)

ok, got some money for extra battery now, i'll go for one car battery costing ~60$ thats 12v 43ah, will fit fine under my seat.
About caps, didnt pull it apart again but saw 50v47uF on some and 63v470uF on bigger ones.

for starters: i can follow guides and solder stuff well etc, but my electronic base knowledge is low.

Question 1: Is there a downside if i pull them all off and replace with ow, lets say 100v rated with equal uF ?
Question 2: SCR's as i searched up are those rectifiers, all of the black 3 legged ones on my controller? with screwable tail, counting 12 screwed to the cooler and 3 sitting off on board

thank you for your time and knowledge on this matter.

edit: oh, and im little confused about volts and amps stacking, i know i put extra battery in line with other 4 of my batteris that are also connected in line, they are 12v20ah, combined they do 48 and my extra will boost it to 60v, but what of the amps.. i felt about amps like.. stamina of a battery, of how long it can put out its 12v load or.. anyway, point is, i'm not overloading anything with the fifth battery being 43ah? just getting more stamina, the only "load" my electronics must endure ise 60volts?

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Joined: 12/01/2006
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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

I have never done the voltage upgrade, but there's a fair amount of discussion on other threads on this. There seems to be a lot of overvolting going on without any controller upgrade. There are also controller failures. Where you want to put your money on that gamble is up to you.:

Question 1: Is there a downside if i pull them all off and replace with ow, lets say 100v rated with equal uF ?

No downside at all, as long as the uF are equal. Based on reported EVT controller experience, use some hot-melt glue around the bases to fight vibration.

Question 2: SCR's as i searched up are those rectifiers, all of the black 3 legged ones on my controller? with screwable tail, counting 12 screwed to the cooler and 3 sitting off on board

The ones screwed to the heatsink are the crucial ones. If you can read the numbers on the sides, you'll be able to confirm the voltage ratings.

OTOH, I can pretty confidently answer this part...

about volts and amps stacking, i know i put extra battery in line with other 4 of my batteris that are also connected in line, they are 12v20ah, combined they do 48 and my extra will boost it to 60v, but what of the amps.. i felt about amps like.. stamina of a battery, of how long it can put out its 12v load or.. anyway, point is, i'm not overloading anything with the fifth battery being 43ah?

You'll only be able to get ~15AH from the new battery before the rest of the pack is flat (Why not 20AH? That's another whole discussion), other than that, it will boost your voltage (pressure, affecting top speed) without changing the maximum amps (volume delivered, affecting acceleration and hill climbing).

Mark

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Joined: 07/07/2007
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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

mf70 wrote:

Question 1: Is there a downside if i pull them all off and replace with ow, lets say 100v rated with equal uF ?

No downside at all, as long as the uF are equal. Based on reported EVT controller experience, use some hot-melt glue around the bases to fight vibration.

The caps are there mainly to suppress voltage ripple.
Make sure the ESR at the switching frequency is similar to that of the original caps.
If the ESR is higher, either the gates (MOSFets, not SCRs) will suffer "voltage punch through" and fail immediately, or, the caps will overheat during use and fail.
it doesnt matter that much if the new caps have slightly lower capacitance, than the old caps, its the ESR thats important.

mf70 wrote:

Question 2: SCR's as i searched up are those rectifiers, all of the black 3 legged ones on my controller? with screwable tail, counting 12 screwed to the cooler and 3 sitting off on board

The ones screwed to the heatsink are the crucial ones. If you can read the numbers on the sides, you'll be able to confirm the voltage ratings.

The Gates are most likely to be MOSFets, rather than SCRs.
The 12 will be the mainpower stage (2 in parrallel, per direction, per phase)

FWIY, i ran my emax at 60v for 16'000km before the controller failed (and even then i suspect the motor failed first) YMMV.
If you are planning on over-volting, id suggest buying a spare controller just in case.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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Joined: 06/17/2009
Posts:
Points: 10
Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

Thank you for your answers.

here's the picture with code from them mosfets, seems to me that they are rated 75v
http://img199.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=img4171k.jpg

also you can see there a picture of what mess i made with forgetting power in while extracting the board from controller casing :(
there is no visible damage to any chips or caps on the other side, also when i power on, the red light on board turns on, but giving gas doesnt do jack..

So now i need new help with the problem i caused with this dumb mistake..
what may be damaged now.. the sparkedy-spark lasted about 1-2sec when i quickly pulled it away and pushed power off, some liquid lead drops where here'n'there inside the casing.
Could i have done something to the motor electronics.. any way to check the motor by some direct current on certain connectors..

damn lame thing to happen.. now when i have my battery ordered and coming after weekend..

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

i went to the internets and found some information!
now i know about things like halls sensors and some of my controller outputs, seems like the controller is working to some end but not enough, hall sensor outputs all read zeros, twisting the trottle doesnt move any numbers too, also while it was connected i didnt screw cover plates on and sum smoke escaped peacefully at slow rate.
Few parts seem smoky and i'll desolder those for testing, also they were getting really hot.
Biggest two caps and .. diods or.. no those are resistors i guess, next to them and free standing mosfets too, i'm sure i'll find methods to test all those parts from the internets.
I'm more worried about tiny parts i could not detect or test for being burned..

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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

owell, desoldered all mosfets and caps, put new caps on and resoldered all mosfets, as they did check out, testing on bike afterwards didnt result any movement or readout to hall sensors, tried manually turning the wheel and it gave some resistance, i.e had power i suppose, seconds after that two mosfets blew up, to pieces yes. maybe they were faulty, tho testing did show them all working.. dno, will try to replace those two, mosfets are cheapo..
if that doesnt change anything, then its something smaller i guess that i will not find.. and i'll have to get new controller, sniff..
and there's so many controllers!! hard to choose and so on, kelly has so many brushless controllers, i was thinking about buyting it then with some room for future upgrades (3kw controller), it doesnt matter that i use weaker motor atm i suppose?
but then there's all the different controllers sigh.. also there are mini controller with same .. voltages and whats their downside? :(

confusion +5

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Joined: 06/17/2009
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Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

well, this speedlimit removing and stuff ended with me ordering kelly controller,
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=274
thatone. No need to modifications and can handle up to 72volt for future upgrades too, also that 3kw gives me options for motor upgrades later on.
little overkill for my scooter but oh well:D

btw mine looks exacly like evt 168, but is nameless and 800w.

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Joined: 07/07/2007
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Points: 1546
Re: nameless china scooter, controller speed limit help required

you'll love the kelly controller, far more features and usability than any analogue controller.

Its likely the gate drivers (or possible pull down resistors) failed on your old controller. When this happens, both FETs on the same half bridge get turned on causing a short across the battery, resulting in smoke and dead FETs.
The logic section might still be ok, if you would like to learn more about fixing motor controllers.
Ive found that it is much easier to deal with either a well documented controller, or a well supported controller. preferabley both.
Id consider the kelly to be well supported, but definately not user serviceable.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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