New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

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Hi

I just bought a 2nd hand EVT 4000e with 14,000km on it. I was told that the batteries will need changing soon as I can get only 20km per charge at the moment.

I'm slightly confused as the new EVTs have lithium batteries but it seems very complicated to install these on a SLA EVT 4000e. And I've also been told that I need a certain type of SLA battery??

I'm a real newbie when it comes to scooters and anything electrical - not a good combo I know! If installing lithium batteries would be too complicated it's probably best I leave it as I understand it's a case of joining together smaller 3v batteries. Scarey!

But I'm keen to learn

Also, is it advisable for me to try and clean the motor, especially given the mileage the bike has done?

Appreciate any help

Ashley

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

My (not particularly expert) understanding is that it is not difficult to replace SLA with lithium (iron phosphate) batteries on scooters so long as it doesn't have too fancy electrics, and you can physically fit them. So long as the new battery is approximately the same voltage as the old one then it should work fine. The only issue is chargers (not sure how suitable SLA chargers are for Lithium batts?), and if the controller has set cut-off levels which will not be right for the new cells (a BMS built into the batt will protect the batts, so it can be OK).

Fundamentally the motors don't care at all what sort of battery is supplying the power and the controllers don't care much. Make sure the battery can supply the necessary current, some types may not be adequate. A lithium replacement will be about 3-times the price up front, but should last more than 3 times as long, so is cheaper overall, and of course is much lighter.

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Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

EVT's motor is known to be safe at 60 volts or more. At really high voltage there's an issue about brush lifetime & whether/if/how to replace the brushes.

The controller does look at the voltage and base it's behavior on voltage and is designed for SLA voltage behavior. What Wookey said is pretty right on, just make sure the replacement pack is as close to 48v as can be done and it will be okay.

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- David Herron, Green Transportation Examiner, Green Transportation Info, The Long Tail Pipe, Torque News, electric race news, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- EVT 4000, Charger bike (rebuilt), Vego 600sx (rebuilt), Electrified Electra Townie
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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

if you are keeping the original charger, get 16 cells of whichever LiFePO4 battery will fit.
The BMS will stop the charger from doing bad things to your cells.

if you want more speed aswell, get 20cells and a new charger with the new pack.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

I think I'm going to go with SLA batteries. I understand its financially better to go with Lithium but I don't have the money at the moment.

So if I'm going with SLA which ones? This is kind of governed by where I live - Paris. I can't find 50ah 12v batteries anywhere! This is the only type I've found. http://www.hellopro.fr/redirection_site_web.php?id_soc=509687&id_prod=358168&origine=7

Would these work?

Can't find BB EB 50 12 batteries anywhere.

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Joined: 02/14/2007
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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

Hello,

I'm in Paris too. Covel (EVT importer) can provide BB batteries at a good price : http://www.covel-france.com/ I recommend you to call them.
If you are not in hurry I have some family close to Saint-Quentin so I could carry the batteries to Paris for you if shipping costs are too expensive.

Jerome

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

Oops, this posted twice!!. See below post!

Sincerely
Vincent B.
===============

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

After going thru 2 sets of Interstate 12v 44ahr lead acid batteries {lasting only approx. 35-40cycles} down to <65%_50% charge;
I figured that I had to try the next generation LiPE4 batteries!!

After checking prices and shipping locations on ebay for many months,
http://shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=LiFePo4+BATTERY+48v&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=LiFePo4+BATTERY&_osacat=0

I finally chose a 48v 30a LiFePo4 battery w rebalancing charge, for $638 including USA USPS shipping, from a USA distributor/supplier named:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Foxx-Power-LiFePo4-48v-30a-Battery-Balancing-Charger_W0QQitemZ140343655638QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_A...

See their website: http://www.foxxpower.com/

I was informed from seller that THE 16cells COULD be easily split up to form smaller pack/packs, so my under the seat mount was:

a) 6cells in lower left battery location, with 1/2 hard foam [cushion] under it, and horizontally to minimize motion.

b) 10cells in right_rear battery location; the cells mounted horizontally, with 2" foam under it, etc.

I used 2 short flexible 6gu wires to series connect the 2 split packs.

I tie wrapped heavy wires to outter frame, so as to minimize motion, and fix the cell packs in case of remote possibility the bike might tip over etc.

I also tie wrapped some of the 16 individual wires [from recharging harness] AFTER I protected them from vibration/motion by plastic flex tubing [available from Radio Shack].

In summary this 42lb (ish) 48v 30ahr LiFePo4 battery pack REPLACED a 44ahr [Lead Acid set 4] weighing approx. 132lbs, with my [previously] added LA4-100 4 cell BMS to "improve the lead acid battery life" etc.

After a few near complete charge/discharge cycles, I'm content that THE 90lbs (ish) weight saved, and a true 30ahr performance battery (at discharge 1C, 1hr} BETTER or performs comparable than the 44ahr/50ahr Lead Acid battery sets that cost approx. $600 to $700 + SH or local pickup.

Sincerely
Vincent B.
===============

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

Hi Vince

I'm new to all this but I'm thinking that I might turn to LiFE batteries in the future, however, I'm not technically very experienced thus I'm worried about all the wiring etc...what kind of modifications would I have to make to an existing EVT4000e? Also, what was the overall cost? More miles/speed?

Thanks

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Joined: 09/05/2007
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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

Dear Ashley,Is it GS battery or LONG battery on your 14000kms EVT ? Kindly inform me more details,thank you very much !

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

Dear Ashley,Is it GS battery or LONG battery on your 14000kms original EVT ? Kindly inform me more details,thank you very much !

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

vbera wrote:

After going thru 2 sets of Interstate 12v 44ahr lead acid batteries {lasting only approx. 35-40cycles} down to <65%_50% charge...
Sincerely, Vincent B.

Hey Vincent (or anyone else), did you try to figure out why you went through those SLAs so fast? Since I am all about conserving $$, before my SLAs die and before I convert to expensive lithium’s I am wondering if it might be possible to extend the life of my current SLAs using a desulfator? There are quite a few on the market and it would be a lot cheaper than a new battery pack. But do they work? If you have used/installed one of these on your SLA powered 4000e/168 I'd love to hear about it!

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=desulfator&_sacat=0&_odkw=desulfator&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313

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VP

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

in an EV situation it is highly unlikely to have failed batteries from sulfation.

that requires long periods of time (weeks) sitting around in a discharged state.

usually the cause of failure is electrolyte loss during charging, from using the cc-cv-cv charging algorithmn.

the other form of capacity loss is from cell reversal, at low state of charge.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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Joined: 05/15/2010
Posts:
Points: 47
Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

VBERA WROTE: going thru 2 sets of Interstate 12v 44ahr lead acid batteries {lasting only approx. 35-40cycles} down to <65%_50% charge;
I figured that I had to try the next generation LiPE4 batteries!!

Here's my comment/opinions on that post: VBERA just reinforced my contention that the BATTERY CHARGER killed the electric car industry. Vbera -- there is nothing wrong with lead acid batteries. In Vancouver, one shop had fire or smoke damage when an EVT charger was left on, overnight. LIFEPO4 or Li-ion or Lithium-managanese will have their own problems, perhaps even more serious or tricky than lead acid, on a 48V electric motorcycle that is driven with large amp draw unless the Lithium pack is calculated correctly to the amps drawn and the pack's C-rating, even assuming that the Lithium pack vendor is telling the truth about the C-rating. With lead acid, if you have the correct type of discharge-rate battery for your e-motorcycle and load-requirements, you will have 2-8 years of use. In contrast, Battery University (who may be mistaken) says that rechargeable LIthium chemistry is limited to 2 years' use, no matter what. I have not seen any successful and trouble-free implementation of prismatic Lithium batteries on EVT-class 48V batteries in Vancouver.

Even the shops/vendors in Vancouver haven't found a good 48V Lithium battery. The Vancouver experience is very similar to this poster's problem, below; after 3x-10x use, the BMS fails.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/8964-problems-ping-battery-please-help

BTW, before Gary Tang and I got the front page story and the Global TV coverage on the Revived Battery Electric Pickup Truck, the journalists brought a battery expert to test our revived sealed lead acid batteries. (The TV people don't give you TV coverage here unless they proof your invention.) We had a revived black-label (not green label) Interstate 33AH battery that tested good all the way to 45AH. However, I'm told by Battery World's sales manager that Interstate doesn't really manufacture batteries, but I don't know if that is true.

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

vancouver_gadgeteer wrote:

Vbera -- there is nothing wrong with lead acid batteries. In Vancouver, one shop had fire or smoke damage when an EVT charger was left on, overnight.

yep, my own emax battery pack did the rotten eggs gas trick on me aswell.
Its the CV stage thats the problem.
the gassing secondary reaction absorbs more than the cut off current, so the charger never shuts down.

you can get chargers with a much better charge profile (there are lotsa ways to do it), its mainly to do with managing those secondary reactions.

vancouver_gadgeteer wrote:

In contrast, Battery University (who may be mistaken) says that rechargeable LIthium chemistry is limited to 2 years' use, no matter what.

Its interesting how that myth came about.
mainly from consumer electronics, where its a combination of poor BMS (as in BMS failure falsely reports failed battery), high sustained operating temperature, deep discharges, etc.

anyway,
i put LiFePO4 in my Emax in 2007 (TS 60v 40Ah pack, 55A continuous discharge rate).
it was in service till 2009, at which point it had done 22'000km, 500cycles and capacity had fallen to 75% of original.

the continuous discharge rate was 4x that rated.

other cells from TS made back in 2006 are still in service now.
those that kept to the 0.3C continuous discharge rate are still above 90% of original capacity, even after 700 cycles.

The tricky thing with these bikes is keeping the relative discharge rate low enough (either by less power, or more battery) for the batteries to last a long time.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

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Joined: 05/12/2010
Posts:
Points: 9
Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

antiscab wrote:

in an EV situation it is highly unlikely to have failed batteries from sulfation.
that requires long periods of time (weeks) sitting around in a discharged state... Matt

I'll drop the anti-sulfation idea. Thanks Matt!

vancouver_gadgeteer wrote:

VEBERA just reinforced my contention that the BATTERY CHARGER killed the electric car industry...

Not knowing what CC/CV is and wanting to get the most out of my battery pack, I did some research and found this article:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/evs17pres.pdf

The stock charger that came with my EVT-4000e (“new” 2008 with 50Ah SLAs purchased 1/2010) has 4 lights that change from orange to green as the batteries are charged. The manual says that the green lights turn on at approximately 90% charge but that the charger should be left on for another 2-3 hours for the pack to reach a full topped off charge. During a charge, each of the green lights turns on at slightly different times so it appears that each 12v battery in the pack is charged by its own circuit. Current drawn by the charger (as shown on my Kill-A-Watt) goes way down once the green lights turn on. The manual also cautions that the charger should not be left on continuously. From the article above I gather that I have a standard CC/CV charger that will result in about 200 life cycles for my pack (assuming my SLAs react similarly to the Optimas in the NREL test). That test revealed that if a CI phase is used, the number of available battery life cycles can be extended 2-3 times!

To date I have followed the manual charging my SLAs until the green lights turn on and then left the pack on the charger for an additional 2-3 hours before shutting it off completely. Right now, this type of charge gives me reasonable range if ridden conservatively. I always charge the pack as soon as I return from a ride and seldom, if ever take the pack down into the yellow/red range. Lastly, I have never left the charger on overnight due to the fire hazard mentioned above.

Questions – 1) How can I use/charge my pack differently to increase the cycles and/or range available? 2) Is there any way to duplicate the NREL laboratory’s CI phase with my current charger? 3) I assume that buying a more advanced CC/CV/CI charger would not be as cost effective as simply buying a Lithium pack when my SLAs die, but if I did which one is recommended? 3) How would I wire it? (for the 4 individual 12V bats in my 48V pack)?

Thanks everyone!

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VP

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

As far as I know the scooter can be charged overnight without any problem. The charger will shut off automatically when ready. The cooling fan however will continue to run.
I have a manual from 2008 recommending overnight charging. I also have a manual from 2009.04 with separate instructions for off-board SLA chargers, on-board SLA chargers and off-board lithium chargers. No information on overnight charging is given. It says: Unplug the connectors after charging is completed. That's all.

Mik
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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

NoGas4Me wrote:

...
...

Questions – 1) How can I use/charge my pack differently to increase the cycles and/or range available? 2) Is there any way to duplicate the NREL laboratory’s CI phase with my current charger? 3) I assume that buying a more advanced CC/CV/CI charger would not be as cost effective as simply buying a Lithium pack when my SLAs die, but if I did which one is recommended? 3) How would I wire it? (for the 4 individual 12V bats in my 48V pack)?

Thanks everyone!

<a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6TH1-3SFV9XV-1N&amp;_user=10&amp;_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1997&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=high&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;_docanchor=&amp;view=c&amp;_searchStrId=1342205595&amp;_rerunOrigin=google&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=14c0eb1fb62fec3009aed8559c66a174" title="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6TH1-3SFV9XV-1N&amp;_user=10&amp;_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1997&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=high&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;_docanchor=&amp;view=c&amp;_searchStrId=1342205595&amp;_rerunOrigin=google&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=14c0eb1fb62fec3009aed8559c66a174">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6TH1-3SFV9XV-1N&amp;_user=10&amp;_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1997&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=high&amp;_...</a> wrote:

The charging method with CC-CC prolongs the cycle life further than that with CC-CV. Excess charging capacity on the part of CV in CC-CV charging degrades the positive electrode through softening of the active material. A higher rate of the first current in CC-CC charging prolongs the cycle life by suppressing the softening of the positive electrode due to active-material particle growth. On the other hand, control of the uniform environment in battery boxes during the charging with CC-CC and CC-CV is very important in order to prolong the cycle life.

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Re: New Batteries for EVT - what are my options?

I clean the brush motor on my 4000e once a year.

Do you know how to tell when brushes of 4000e are start to go bad? What are the signs?

I am not sure how to tell.

Thanks

Rob Sonnenberg
North Carolina
United States

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Rob Sonnenberg
Greenville, NC

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