Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's on a Luyuan E-Bike

9 replies [Last post]
Joe1982
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2009
Points: 12

Hi,

It took me a while but here is my first post, i hope its in the right section of the site so here we go.

I did check the site and found loads of info already on the subject, but then again,nothing applies to the bike i have.
That and its all a bit too technical, im a beginner in these things so when explaining, be patient with me.
See it as " adding power for dummies" as i am one :) I have asked a few local people here who claim to know but further then sparking batteries and no good advice, i don't seem to get.

I own a Electric Bike, Luyuan i believe it is, similar to Condor / Mountaineer or other types out there, sort of 1 bike fits all.

It has a 48v battery pack in it( 4 x 12v/12ah) and 1 x 250w motor. It motor's fine at 18mph but when I'm near a hill, i might as well get off and walk as its slow, add factors such as wind and rain and i can stay there for the night.

I'm prepared for a couple of options,

A : i purchased 4 new batteries to add , but somehow that didn't bring anything.
As advised by some of the members here ( thank you all for your help so far ) i've connected the new batteries in series, duplicating te existing battery pack.
Then i wired it up to the connection point, be it " red with red and blue with blue, from pack 1 too pack 2 ".. no sparks, no smoke ( woehoeew)but also no added power ( d'0h)
as said, im new at this and im willing to try so im not sure , have i wired it wrong or what happened, as i didn't give me more power to start from a full stop, or to go up a glorified speedramp, nor did it add some speed , but the torque is what im after mostely.

B :i have seen some mod's here that just added 1x 12v battery , to make it 60 v, and have the same effect as with the shunt, question is,how do you wire that too the bike/batteries and will this not blow my motor/controller or any of my light bulbs? if you have an advice, please feel free , chip in and tell me, as i am getting desperate.

C: the shunt.. "bin" there , done that.. fried the controller and some cables.. so won't try that again.

I have new batteries sitting here, waiting to be used, so i can use any kind of help that is out there.
As i live in Europe, and E biking here is not really big (yet) , i am on my own - same for Forums.

i love the bike, greatest thing ever but now its a " fair weather " bike, to use when there is no wind only..this time of the year , proven to be hard..Its a daily struggle.

I went that far with adding the pedals to the bike, so when uphill , i pedal.. according to the police stopping me this evening , i looked like i've lost my marbles, great laugh he said but not to do it again as it would distract other drivers around me :) off with the pedals it is.

As said, im aware that these topics are all over the site but they make no sense to me so i hope that someone out there can give me a hand , hopefully with good results.

Many thanks

Joe

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
amberwolf
amberwolf's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2007
Points: 35
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

If it's a European-specific model, it's likely that the controller has a power limitation built into it that is causing part of the problem, as I understand the limits there are pretty severe, and manufacturers seem to cater to those limits.

The controller is probably limiting the current to the motor so that it does not exceed some setpoint. That is probably for euro-limits, but it also is there to protect the controller from blowing up, and the motor from burning out. Motors will take a lot more abuse than controllers will, in general, but both of them have their limits.

You may need a better controller that will handle more current.

More voltage *can* help, but does not always, since what more volts does is make the motor run faster at a given throttle setting. That also applies more power total to the motor, but it does not mean the motor will turn any *harder* from it, depending on it's capabilities.

If it is not the controller, then it is probable that the motor itself simply can't do what you're asking of it. You may need to change to a motor with more torque. Is it a brushed or brushless motor? Meaning, how many wires come from the motor? If it's only two, it's brushed, if it's at least three and more likely six-plus, it's brushless. If it's a brushed motor, then it is probably also a cheap two-pole, so you could replace it with a four-pole brushed that would still work with your existing controller. IT may already be four-pole, though, as one of the cheap 250W scooter motors I have around here is, but it simply can't take the load of driving much of a bike. I burned it up trying even a light aluminum frame bike at slow speeds. :(

If it's a brushless motor, it'll probably be easier to buy a controller and motor that are meant to work together, than to try to get different makes of them to work (because of connectors and figuring out the sensor and phase order, hooking it all up, etc).

I suspect first that the controller is actively limiting your power level, and second that the motor simply can't do what you're asking of it. Especially if when you pedal it helps significantly on uphills.

FWIW, here in AZ, if you took the pedals off you wouldn't be able to legally ride it around on the roads (or paths or sidewalks!)--only on your own property.... The pedals on these little e-scooters are like moped pedals--only there for show and emergencies, and for legal reasons to keep them a "bicycle" class vehicle, isntead of a scooter like a Vespa or similar, which in many places require an M-class license to ride!

As for what voltage is safe for your controller, lights, etc., well the only guaranteed safe voltage is the one it came from the factory with. ;) Unless you can determine how everything is hooked up inside, and what some components are, specifically, it's not really possible for me to tell you any more than that about what's safe voltage-wise.

If it has a DC-DC converter running off the pack that runs your lights and stuff (probable), then your lights would not be *directly* damaged by too much voltage, but you might blow up the DC-DC converter, if it is not rated for what you put into it from the pack. However, it is possible to change the wiring so that the DC-DC converter does not go to the top of the pack for power, but instead taps off the 48V point, and then you have no worries about damaging it. Any keyswitch-light-engage function isn't going to work anymore, though; you'll need a separate switch added to turn the lights on or off, if one does not already exist.

__________________

--
Michael Elliott
Cybernetic Necromancers, Discorporated
Phoenix, AZ
Watch me build an electric-assisted recumbent bike from recycled junk:
http://electricle.blogspot.com

amberwolf
amberwolf's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2007
Points: 35
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

The bike is bough

t in Dublin ( Ireland) but a direct import from Luyuan China, so caters all over the world basicly.

Motor power: CPU motor 250W
Climbing angle: 12 / 15 dgr
Torque: 32-55Nm
Front brake: Drum brake
Rear brake: EABS (Electric absorptionbraking system)
Charge time: 5-8 H
Speed: 20-25Km/H
Run distance: 40-55Km
Battery capacity: 48V/12AH
Burglar Alarm
Magnetic Motor Lock
Battery Lock

It does specify the climbing angle, but it doesn't specify the speed at which it should be able to do that. So we don't know what it was designed to do.

I have attached a picture of the controler for your attention, have a look and see what you can make of it - Its set for 25 km/18 mph

Since you say it's "set" for that speed, does that mean the controller is limited to that speed? There are different ways of doing that, and if they did not choose to limit it by counting wheel revs, but instead do it by limiting voltage or current, you'd probably need to bypass that limitation to fix the problem.

As for the picture, it does tell me some things, though some are educated guesses since I can't read Chinese. :)

It's probably limited to 48V, and if you go over that I don't know what will happen. The power output stage (MOSFETs and capacitors) may not be rated for above that, and may blow up, although that might not happen immediately--it could take days to months (or more). No way to know unless you were to open the controller and find out the ratings of the components inside. I don't recommend that unless you have no other option.

The 42V is probably the LVC, or low voltage cutoff to protect your batteries. That means when the input voltage drops below that, the controller probably turns off. If your power cuts out while riding on hills and the batteries are low, that's why.

17A is pretty low for a current limit, and that is likely a part of your problem. It means that you can only pull 17A thru it at max before it limits itself to prevent damage. In theory that makes it capable of outputting 816 watts at 48V, but it may be programmed with a lower limit to protect your much smaller motor (which could be destroyed by sustained power output of that amount).

60 degrees is probably the sensor spacing in the motor; so if you were to replace the motor with a larger one, and keep this controller, you would want to also get a motor with the same sensor spacing. Many controllers can autodetect this spacing, but not all do, and if it's wrong the motor may not spin up correctly from a stop, or may have wierd problems in rotation, or wrong RPMs, etc. If you were to buy a new controller for this motor, then you could get one that works with any sensor spacing or make sure it says it's for 60 degree spacing.

The 022001 I don't know what it is, could be almost anything including date of manufacture. The A090802ES is probably it's serial number. The very last number could be anything, possibly a registration number or part number. The very first number also could be anything.

Checked it out already but wouldn't know where to get one, does any controler of any electric bike fit on it? i asked my supplier and in his best " chinglish" ( chinese guy, as good as no english language,how he survives, no idea) but said that all controllers are the same with Luyuan.

They probably do use the same controller for everything, and just program it differently.

They survive because 99% (more, actually) of their business is done within China, where they are not speaking English. ;) It's actually surprising to me how good the English is of some of the people I have tried to deal with for support, questions, etc, at various Chinese companies, even though I can't figure out what they're saying all the time, it's still as good as many people I communicate with in the USA. (which is a terrible shame, as that indicates how badly they've learned their own native language)

There are two basic types of controllers and motors on bikes. Brushed are for Brushed motors, which work differently and have usually only two wires going into them. Brushless usually have at least three and often more than six, as I said before.

So you have to get the right kind for your bike, and there are various types of each kind, too. Most of them will work with each other, if you get a new brushless controller, but it might not work. The hard part is that it's connectors will not be wired to hook directly to your motor, and you will have to determine by experimentation and certain guidelines which wires to hook where. It'd be better to find someone local to you that has done this and have them help. :)

There is a thread (or two) on the Endless Sphere forums, and possibly here, too, about how to determine which wires are which on such a motor, and how to safely hook up a new controller to them. I dont' have a link handy, though.

How do you mean, would this solve my problem in small hills? as said, im not going for more speed but if it does, ill take it :) but would this not get me up small hills easier and quicker? is this in opition to look at you think?

There isn't any way for me to know for sure what your limitation is that is keeping you from doing the hills, but I suspect that the controller is limiting you to protect itself or the motor, and you would need to defeat that protection or replace the controller, neither of which is a trivial task if you have no electrical / electronics experience.

I don't think adding a battery will work safely, because the controller is speced at 48V. It might actually do what you want it to, but it may also damage the controller in the process.

If it *used* to do hills and such properly, but simply doesn't anymore, then the batteries are probably just getting old and need to be replaced, and you could just swap all four out for new ones, and it'd probably work fine.

If it never did hills and such, then possibly paralleling two sets of batteries might help, but if the controller is limiting current, it will not help much, if at all.

The motor is 250w but i found people who did it already, modding the bike to get more torque, sadly enough they don't answer on emails and conssider it the best kept secret in the world..that or they can't read english..

Without knowing what they did, you might as well pretend they didn't do it. They could have done anything from rewinding the motor for torque vs speed, to defeating some limit in the controller, to replacing the controller, or upgrading components in the controller, etc.

The motor is brushless, but that said, the bike does take me well, im a big guy ( 90kg) but no problem in driving, it doesn't strain itself on the flat, only up hills you here asking for more power.

And that's normal. Being only 250W, it would not normally be expected to deal well with hills (and even if it could, would probably overheat on steep and long hills).

There is my problem, if i have a new controller, how will i hook it up, im not realy into electrics, hence the reason i did attempt the shunt , blew the fuse, melted the cable to the battery pack and smoked out the first conroller :)

Yeah, that's no fun at all. :( It's something you would want to read about before attempting, and make good notes of how it all was setup before you started, so you could put it back the way it was if it turned out not to work the new way.

Pedalling didn't help much to be honnest, if it would, i'd keep the pedals on it.

Not surprising--I doubt it even has shiftable gears for pedalling, since they're only there as a token for places that require them. :)

Not sure if there is a converter, i stripped the bike and other than the controllers and some cables, there is nothing else in it, so i guess it runs all directly of the pack, thats why i wonder what would happen if i made a 60v of it? and how do i do that?

There's no way to know what would happen without trying it, if there is no converter to check out. It's also possible the converter is in the controller, if the lights run from it rather than from the pack. Also possible the lights are simply made to run on 48V, in which case I can't predict what will happen at 60V. Possibly they'd just be brighter and not last as long, possibly they'd burn out immediately.

To make 60V out of 48V, you would take the positive lead off the "first" battery, the one that goes to the controller, and hook it to the positive of one additional battery. Then hook the negative of the additional battery to the positive of the battery you just took the wire off of. That puts them all in series, for five of them total.

You may have to buy or make the wire to connect between them; it needs to be the same as the ones that connect the others already.

So in the long run, as a controller is out of the question, would the 60v,. adding one 12v battery solve my problem of speed/torque, without burning out the engine?

Again, no way to know without trying it if it would work or just damage things, without more technical information about the controller, wiring, lights, etc. None of which you can probably even get.

ill run downstairs now and fit the pack in it, blew a fuse this morning as bucketloads of rain came down, and a drop off water found its way to the batteries, blowing the fuse.. well i hope its only the fuse, will find out :)

If water can get in there to do stuff like that, I'd be more worried about sealing it all up than I would about getting up the hills. ;) Ireland isn't the driest place in the world--at least here in Arizona I have little to worry about as far as water goes!

__________________

--
Michael Elliott
Cybernetic Necromancers, Discorporated
Phoenix, AZ
Watch me build an electric-assisted recumbent bike from recycled junk:
http://electricle.blogspot.com

Joe1982
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2009
Points: 12
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

Hi,

Thanks for the update, great to see you are having fun with my troubles :)
It was only the fuse btw, small "air"hole in the pack got a drip of water in it as the rubber mat on top shifted, but all fixed and ready to go.

Thanks for all the info above, indeed it is a shame that we don't know exactly what is what, the bike doesn't come with all the specs it should come im afraid but as said, we can only try.

Worst that can happen is smoking the controller box , and that is not so expensive, same for the light bulbs.

Ill try the 60v mod over the weekend and keep you posted, no i have, yes i can get..lets all hope on a yes so i can get to work in the windy season :)

silly question but since it has now 4 x 12v - 12ah batteries in it, would i not create more power with 4 x 12v - higher amp batteries?

I have tried hooking up 4 extra batteries parallel with the existing ones but indeed, that didn't help me as the controller is restricted, or so i think as it didn't add anything except weight.

Anyway,ill hopefully make it up to work and back in the morning, and play around with the 60v mod this weekend.

Thanks for explaining it , and some day, maybe some day, ill own a Vextrix :),get the license sorted first i guess

talk soon

joseph

amberwolf
amberwolf's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2007
Points: 35
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

Joe1982 wrote:

silly question but since it has now 4 x 12v - 12ah batteries in it, would i not create more power with 4 x 12v - higher amp batteries?

Since hooking up the other batteries parallel didn't change it, then no, using bigger capacity (higher Ah) batteries instead would not, either. Based on that result, I'd guess the controller really is limiting the current. Current is what gives you torque, assuming the motor, wiring, and controller can handle it. Voltage gives you speed. Since voltage x current gives power, and torque x rpm also is power, then increasing rpm increases power but it does not necessarily work that way with hills, because the motor isn't made to take that much power.

One other thing I didn't discuss was that many motors are rated for peak power, which they can handle for a short time until they heat up enough to either burn the windings or demagnetize the magnets (or burn out the hall sensors in the case of brushless motors). If yours is indeed rated at 250W peak, rather than 250W constant, then it is also a weak link in hill-climbing capability. :(

Quote:

Thanks for explaining it , and some day, maybe some day, ill own a Vextrix :),get the license sorted first i guess

Or learn enough fiddling around with this one to build your own from scratch, like I did. :P

__________________

--
Michael Elliott
Cybernetic Necromancers, Discorporated
Phoenix, AZ
Watch me build an electric-assisted recumbent bike from recycled junk:
http://electricle.blogspot.com

Joe1982
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2009
Points: 12
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

build one of my own? lol i wish i knew how :) did notice the convertor kits online , to convert any 2 wheeled vehicle to a electric 2 wheeled vehicle.. but will practice first on what i have

thanks for the instructions, handy for the not so technical pepole (me)

i just installed the additional battery, no sparks , so far so good.
wanted to test it but it started to rain.and trust me, rain here means for the rest of the night so ill test it in the morning.

im a bit concerned on blowing fuse/motor/controller so i won't gun it up the hill, altough they are not that long, wont take the risk.

another thing came into my mind.. how about charging it, will the stock charger of 48v do the trick on the 60v mod? it will need longer yes but will it work?

and in addition, can i wire up more batteries to it for more range, i have 3 sitting so i might as well use them, if so, how do i wire that into the pack ( if i have room left lol)

talk soon

learning joe

amberwolf
amberwolf's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2007
Points: 35
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

Joe1982 wrote:

another thing came into my mind.. how about charging it, will the stock charger of 48v do the trick on the 60v mod? it will need longer yes but will it work?

Not likely. It does not output enough voltage to charge it. The voltage of the SLA charger must be a certain amount higher than the fully-charged voltage of an SLA pack. That's usually going to be 14.4 to 15.0 volts times the number of batteries.

With 48 volts, that's 4 batteries, so it would reach a maximum of 60V, and probably more like 58-59V. To charge a 60 volt or 5 battery pack, it would need to reach a maximum of 75V and at least 72V.

You could simply get a single-battery "12V" SLA charger, and charge the added battery separately from the other four, or you could get a whole new 5-battery charger.

In theory it's possible to rotate batteries on the 4-cell charger so that you are charging a different set of four for only a short time, but you'd have to disconnect and reconnect batteries and stand there the whole time it's recharging (or set yourself an alarm to go back and do it every few minutes or so). It won't end up fully balanced that way, though, and eventually minor differences in charge state will begin to add up and get larger, plus you will never really know exactly when the whole pack is truly "full" based on whatever indicators the charger gives.

Quote:

in addition, can i wire up more batteries to it for more range, i have 3 sitting so i might as well use them, if so, how do i wire that into the pack ( if i have room left lol)

In theory, you can simply keep adding parallel packs of four, and get more range. Keep in mind that because the batteries are heavy at probably 40 pounds a set (assuming 12V 12Ah batteries), then you won't get double the range from two packs, nor triple from three. At some point you will end up with *less* range than with *less* packs, because the vehicle will take so much power to startup from a stop that it will draw far more power from the packs than the extra one(s) give back.

Also, it adds even more load to your shocks, bearings, tires, wheels, and frame, and at some point something will give. :(

Plus it adds more load to your motor and controller, trying to start it up from a dead stop or go up hills, particularly.

__________________

--
Michael Elliott
Cybernetic Necromancers, Discorporated
Phoenix, AZ
Watch me build an electric-assisted recumbent bike from recycled junk:
http://electricle.blogspot.com

Joe1982
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2009
Points: 12
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

hi

with other words, money out of the window as i have 3 batteries that i can't use.. online sale here we come :( you have a point indeed, ah well.. worth testing it.

ill have to check the shops here for stronger charger.. if i was to hook up the stock charger, will the first 4, the standard ones charge?or what can i damage doing it that way

looks like im going back to just the stock batteries and avoiding hills.. next bike i buy will be tested on hills before doing so..

thanks for all the advice but cost vrs of what its worth vrs possible restricted controller means i have tried everything without any succes..

keep scooting

joe

amberwolf
amberwolf's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2007
Points: 35
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

Joe1982 wrote:

with other words, money out of the window as i have 3 batteries that i can't use.. online sale here we come :( you have a point indeed, ah well.. worth testing it.

Well, as long as you keep them charged up they can be spares for when batteries fail from use and age on the bike. If every week you charge up the bike, then swap out one battery from the "shelf" batteries into the bike, and put the bike one on the shelf, then ride it/charge it during the week, next week swap out a different bike battery for a different shelf battery, you will get a longer pack life, but that's annoying to have to do. If you *do* do it, make sure you charge up before taking the battery out, since it can damage them to sit uncharged.

Quote:

ill have to check the shops here for stronger charger.. if i was to hook up the stock charger, will the first 4, the standard ones charge?or what can i damage doing it that way

You'd just need to hook the charger across the first four only, and not hook up the 5th one to the stock charger at all. Easiest way is probalby to unplug the connector from the positive of the most positive battery and move it to the positive of the next one down the chain, essentially making the bike 48V again just for charging. Then connect your separate charger to the 5th battery. You could wire up a switch to do this, too, and it wouldn't require as heavy duty a switch if you make sure to never switch it while the bike or charger is "on".

__________________

--
Michael Elliott
Cybernetic Necromancers, Discorporated
Phoenix, AZ
Watch me build an electric-assisted recumbent bike from recycled junk:
http://electricle.blogspot.com

anto123473
Offline
Joined: 07/11/2013
Points: 3
Re: Rookie Question regarding adding more power/batterie's ...

Hi can anyone help me? I have a luyuan ebike with 48v battery's but it was so slow I nearly ever used it, I left it about a month without charge and now it won't charge at all, is there anything I can do?

__________________

Anto

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.



Who's new

  • haji
  • thedudeisnotin
  • ebikeguru
  • Bonnie Zhong
  • Tigen14

Customize This