Hi all,
I've ordered a brand new Vectrix a few days ago, at Vectrix Store Paris, and I was wondering why do I have to do FIVE full charging cycles before being allowed to do partial charges ? Why two cycles is not enough, as described in the charging process to apply after the software upgrade ? It's a little bit annoying to make circles around my neighborhood for an hour or two every day after my commuting, waiting for this silly red light, and all that during one week ...
Why do I have to do FIVE charging cycles on a brand new Vectrix ?
Sun, 05/02/2010 - 03:11
#1
Why do I have to do FIVE charging cycles on a brand new Vectrix ?
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My advice is - don't do five complete discharges*. 1 is enough. The more complete discharges* you do, the worse for the battery. 1 complete discharge* (when you receive the bike), followed by a full charge and full discharge* is enough for the bike's computer to sync with the battery.
If you want your battery to live as much as possible follow these advices:
- use regen braking only at 13 battery bars or less left
- for longer rides, drive only up to 70km/h on flat roads. Uphill, drive slower.
- do only partial discharges to up to 5 battery bars left. I mostly drive to up to 7-8 battery bars left.
- if you don't need the full range, do most of your charges up to 14-15 battery bars full
- every 1000-1500 km leave the charge to complete with the EQ (equalizing). The length of the EQ depends, but it can go up to 4 hours. Since if follow above rules, my EQ charge lasts less then 2 hours.
- when you park the bike, don't expose it to the direct sunlight or at least don't expose your battery compartment (between your feet) to direct sunlight
- if, before you charge the bike, your battery's temperature is above 24°C (you can check it turning your kill switch to off position and pulling your left brake), use the pre-charge cooling (described in your manual)
- don't do those weekly or 14 days complete discharges to minimize memory effect. Follow my above advices and you won't have any memory effect or voltage depression. More full/complete discharges you'll do, less cycles your battery will live.
If I remember anything more, I'll add it here.
Edit: * complete or full discharge = when the red battery telltale lights. When it does that, make sure to as close to your home/plug as possible
Personally, I find Battery longevity discussions to be on par with what's the best oil to use in your gas burner. In the end, it likely won't matter how much or how little you baby your battery, because your bike will probably die in a parking lot from some blue haired little old lady that really shouldn't have been driving that day.
Enjoy your bike. Five complete cycles will condition your battery to top performance (maximum range and more acurate sync with the guages), but if you don't require either, relax and enjoy the bike. The less time it spends charging, the less heat on the components. However, I have found that if I do a month's worth of 10 to 15 mile daily trips and daily recharges, my range will drop by several miles, and it takes a couple of complete rundowns to get the range back up to her 30 mile norm. No big deal really, as I don't need full range for daily use anyway.
I'm glad I didn't spend my last year and a half sweating over the technical details of this bike. They built it for me to use, not to re-engineer, so I put a timer on my outlet, to allow the bike to rest in the evenings and charge at night while it's cool and I'm asleep. I plug it in when I get home for the day and unplug it when I ride it. Now it's in the shop for a non-battery related issue, and because there's no company here to supply parts, I may never see my beloved Vectrix again as it may well be toast by the time parts become available again for it. So, in retrospect, I'm glad I didn't worry about trying to baby it and squeeze out another 6 to 8 months worth of battery life over the life of the bike. I enjoyed the hell out of it, and I miss it! And because I didn't worry myself to death with how to treat it like it was old dynomite, I actually ENJOYED OWNING IT! :-)
Richard, I agree with AndY1 and say ride it like normal and you will see range go up proportionally after a few weeks or so. Is the NEW Vectrix still using 102 cells of NiMH pack of 125 volt nominal. Of all the types of batteries made I still like the NiMH best. I am babying my LiFePO4 packs because it is so expensive now but price is dropping but I have 20 year old Edison cells which are similar to NiMH and are going strong. Being I have an old VX-1 I got some extra cells if they go short so they will be equally old when replaced.
But given the reliability of Vectrix pack I don't see if it could do any damage to go 5 cycles. If you find out why the new manual says go five cycles let V know.
Rusty
KB1UKU
Well, that's what I can call two opposite points of vue ! Thanks to all of you for your advices. Andy, if I understand well, you're basically trying to simulate the behaviour of a Prius (I'm the happy owner of a 2004' one). May I ask you how long have you been doing that with your bike, and what is the history of it (year, software level, etc.) ? Of course, you're technicaly right, but I'm not as smart and tireless as a Prius computer ! As Mocassin said, I would like to live with my bike with no headache each time I'll be wondering when to plug or unplug it ... I'll probably do the initial five full cycles, but just not to be faulty if there is any guarantee issue about my batteries (memory dump keeps an eye on you !). I understand the need of a few cycles to get the full perf from the batteries, but not the need to do five FULL cycles ...
I think the need to do periodically full cycles is more a matter of computer sync with the real SOC batteries level than a matter of memory effect (NiMh don't have - theorically - memory effect).
About the regen braking, I think that as long as you don't live uphill and trying to regen just after a full charge, there must be always enough "space" for the energy to come back in the battery, because you always spend more energy by accelerating than you can take back by regen braking (remember the thermodynamic laws). The only energy source is the battery, so there is no need to keep an empty space for the energy coming from the regen braking as in a Prius because the Prius has another source of energy (the engine) that can move the car without the need of the battery.
In conclusion, my point of vue is that as long as there is a need of a so complicated care duty on the Vectrix, it won't go further than geeks and green early adopters. What has made the success of the Prius is that you drive it absolutely as any other car, except that you pour less gasoline in the tank, no matter that what is under the hood is ten years forward from the rest of the world !
"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.
Maybe this expert explanation will help you: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/7912-nimh-battery-problems-and-cures
I really suggest you read it.
Please, do understand, that in this case, manufacturer isn't always right. Check post on how many of users have their battery packs failing. My first battery pack failed after only 4000km, but I didn't baby it and I still had the old firmware installed! Oh, yeah, while I'm at it; when you get the bike, check if it has the latest firmware. You do that by turning off the kill switch and pulling the left brake. On the left LCD, you should have battery temperature and voltage readout. If not, tell the dealer to install the latest firmware or your battery pack won't live long.
With the new pack, I'm nearing 3000km done (7000km with both packs). Yesterday, I did 46km in one ride. Full charge finished at 22°C and ambient 20°C. After 46km done, my battery temperature was only 24°C. With my previous - failing pack, it got BATHOT (50°C) after this distance.
I know you'll love the bike - that's why I don't want you to feel the pain when the battery pack starts failing. Baby your bike and it will baby you back. I had to learn it the hard way. I was extremely lucky to get a new pack under warranty.
Don't do initial 5 full discharges - only 2 are enough. When you get the bike - discharge until red battery telltale, full charge and another discharge until red battery telltale. There's really no need to do that 5 times.
"...About the regen braking, I think that as long as you don't live uphill and trying to regen just after a full charge, there must be always enough "space" for the energy to come back in the battery, because you always spend more energy by accelerating than you can take back by regen braking (remember the thermodynamic laws). ..."
I live at the top of a half mile hill, which climbs about 200 feet in altitude. I actually only need braking for maybe a 10th of a mile at most, but with that, I have checked my voltage at the top and bottom, and it doesn't change more than one volt. With an overnight charge, I can check the voltage before moving the bike and it's usally at 141. Seems that the software itself always leaves plenty of room at the top for early regen, but that's just my opinion. I'm no electrical genious by any means. I just think that sometimes we overthink problems that don't really exist.
Sure. Battery failures WILL happen. They do on Prius cars as well, but is it due to user neglect, oe ia it due to our own attempts to outsmart the system, or just one of those things that's bound to happen no matter what?
Welcome Richard - and congrats on the new toy!
Just thought I'd weigh in on the advice. I bought my 2007 VX-1 in August of 2008. I followed the advice and did the 5 charge/discharges. After just a month or so the battery pack failed. Luckily it was still under warranty; Vectrix replaced the battery pack. They never offered an explanation, but my guess is that the bike probably sat too long without a charge (it was new, but a year-old, when I bought it).
Since then I've ridden it another 5K miles, without any problems. I commute 20 miles (each way) to work, on the freeway, at full speed. When I get to work I have 5 or 6 bars left (usually). I charge while working, then ride back home in the evening. I charge at home at night, then ride to work the next day, etc.
I don't think I'm abusing the bike (I'm only doing what it was made for!), but I do use it to it's full capability. I don't worry about the technical details. It's noticeable when the bike is doing the longer Equalization charge (takes a little longer), but otherwise; just Plug-N-Play!
You are lucky to be dealing with a Vectrix store; if you do have any problems you can bring it to the shop. Are you getting a two-year warranty?
Have fun!
What do you need?
Hi Oobflyer,
Yes, I've got the two-year warranty. During your 5K miles, have you done full discharges on a regular basis (ie until red light every two weeks or so), as adviced in the user manual ? It seems that some users do it and some don't, and I still don't know who is wright ...
Still one week to wait ;-)
Richard.
"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.
Five discharges are recommended for new bikes to condition the batteries and get them used to the fact they are 30ah batteries, much as you had to condition your mobile phone battery a few years ago. As long as you have the newer software you are unlikely to cause damage to a new battery set.
When I had my bike I had a 25 mile trip each way for work and charged at work/home after each journey with the battery just short of going into "limp home" mode (I rode at speeds from 30-62mph but predominatly 50+). After a year my battery was as good as the day I started riding.