60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

65 replies [Last post]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Jeff,

Perhaps when I replace my controller I will have one that handles the heat better. So far, I haven't found a controller for a 6 phase motor (60 degree poles?) other than Kelly. I emailed Sevcon, but I don't really expect a reply since I am a one unit hobbyist. I seriously doubt Martin will replace the controller under warranty - They have not replaced the 60V charger that blew up under normal use. I have asked for a price on their controllers.

I'm guessing the temp sensor in the controller provides an analog signal to the microcontroller, though I don't see a part number on the tiny pearl-shaped sensor. It might be feasible to tap into the signal to feed a circuit to drive a temp meter on the instrument panel.

The controller is water-proof - we could carry a super-soaker and spray the controller when it gets hot!

Tim

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Alternatively, we could drive in foot-deep streams always.

For cooling the controller, I am wondering about installing a large-sized vacuum bose nipple on the front and back sides of the controller unit. If I sized it to be accommodate a PCV hose, I could run the hose up to the cowel and put a standard PCV breather filter on it. This would be a cheap way to get filtered air into the inside of the controller. Then I'd have to create a way to bring air into the cowel through a grille of some sort. I'm not home right now but am pretty sure that can me done. There may already be an opening there to cool off the DC to CD converter. I'd put a breather filter on the exit tube as well, after routing it into the rear cowling.

My first impression is to make room for the front nipple at at the front bottom of the controller case and the rear at the top. Because the controller tilts forward some, that design should send in the maximum amount of air flow over the components.

For the hub motor. my recollection is that every part of the case spins with the wheel. The shaft, with its opening for the wires, appears to be the only stationary piece. I'd have to dismantle the thing to figure it out but am wondering about sending a vaccuum tube into the unit, accompanying the wire loom. The question then is how an airflow would be established through an exit point.

Does this make any sense?

Jeff

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Tim:

I found a threaded heater hose fitting on eBay. The question is whether the end panels on the controller (non finned pieces) have enough clearance to accommodate the threads and nut on the inside of the panel. You would know better than me, having disassembled the controller.

To see the fitting, type in 'Stainless Heater Hose Fitting' into the eBay search box. Typd in 'crankcase breather filter' to see what I am thinking about fitting on each end of the hoses.

Hopefully, there is room to affix the fitting.

Jeff

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Jeff,

I will need to take another look at my blown controller, but I really think this is workable. The heat sink is on the "upper" end of the PCBs, so the entrance doesn't have to be at the bottom, as long as you can get air flow across the heat sink. The tubes are pretty small - I would want some kind of blower to move air even when the bike is moving slowly - The last place I was stranded was halfway up a hill moving slowly. Most of the 12V compressors are I've seen are not intended for continuous use - just for inflating tires, beds & toys. A 12V aquarium pump would work continuously, but air volume is pretty low. I don't think i would want to use a vacuum pump - the air coming through could get really hot.

Tim

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Tim

I sent a separate email to you in detail but thought it wise to post my response in case others are following this string. If a fan is used, I'm thinking it can be directed as an exhaust unit on the back side of the controller, where there isn't anything attached, if memory serves me correctly. I found a brushless 25X10mm on ebay (an inch square and about 3/8 deep). That could mounted directly on the controller end panel. The upper end make sense, given the diagonal mounting. Type in ' brushless 25X10mm ' into eBay and you'll see what I mean.

With forced air flow, I will likely opt to put the input and output breather tube filters inside the plastic storage compartment under the seat, with the circuit breaker. There will be a little challenge funneling down the output from the inch square fan to the actual tube size but that is doable with some creativity.

Jeff

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Jeff,

I don't see how the fan placement would affect airflow, since in a sealed system whatever goes in is the same volume coming out. - I think the real issue will be the size of tubes and holes for the air to flow through. I'm afraid vacuum tubing is too small to allow much air volume, unless a compressor is used. As far as dimensions are concerned - The inlet plate is pretty much covered with wiring grommets. The middle grommet is used to feed the ground wires in, and I don't see any reason why these could not be rerouted through either of the other grommets. That leaves a 3/4" hole which could be enlarged if desired. There is a gap of about 1-1/2" from the inlet plate to the heat sink on my unit. (Keep in mind mine is an early REV A, so check yours before buying fittings.) The exit plate has less than 1/2" between the heat sink and the plate. The tiny fan you mentioned could be fit, but I don't see how to fit a water-proof fitting to the outside of the exit hole.

I would try to use a 1" or 1-1/4" hose. (It looks like hydraulic hoses, and auto heater hoses and fittings are available in this size.) You could probably find fittings at your local hardware store. I would not try to fit the fan inside the controller. It would be far more accessible if it were in a space under the seat (and you would not be limited in fan size), and if it were placed on the inlet hose, it would be blowing "cool" air.

I'm not sure what this is, but it looks ideal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/K-N-AIR-FILTER-12V-ATTACHED-BLOWER-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2c54d4dd61QQitemZ190401797473QQptZ...

Marine blowers for airing out bilge (smallest is 3" outlet):
http://cgi.ebay.com/RULE-IN-LINE-3-BILGE-BLOWER-12V-/320537111929?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa1802d79

Tim

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Tim

Very helpful perspective. I'll be home next week and give this a try. Many thanks

Jeff

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

I bit the bullet and ordered a Kelly KBS72121 controller. FEDEX shows it shipped from Shanghai and has so far made it to Anchorage Alaska. Is tech support in China?

I also ordered a throttle controller that I want to install on the left handlebar to give a "backwards" throttle to control regenerative braking.

Trying to cool the motor looks pretty difficult. I am planning on leaving it alone until I know for sure that is a problem.

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Well, I do admire your fortitude in ordering a Kelly. From what I've seen online, customer support appears to come from a Mr. Li in China. Variable regen makes sense and could lead to shutting it off altogether in favor of a cooler motor. I'll be interested in seeing your results with that and your experience with the new controller. I am developing a bill of materials for the controller cooling process. After I install and give it a try, I'll post the results.

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Jeff,

This is your "I told you so" moment. When I opened the box and looked at the controller I immediately knew I had the wrong one. The controller is the size of a pack of cigarettes, and there is no way the winding wires could handle 50A continuously as advertised without melting like a fuse. After reviewing the specs on the various Kelly Controller families, I am convinced the spec is supposed to say "120 Watts max" instead of "120 Amps max". Also, I don't know what the 60-degree poles vs. 120-degree poles feature is, but there are only 3 hall sensor signals, and 3 field winding connections, so this is definitely a 3 phase controller only, and cannot be used as 6 phase controller. I'm beginning to think there is no such thing as 6-phase controller. It looks like my original controller was made up of two 3-phase controllers, perhaps I should just consider the motor to be two 3-phase motors working together and control accordingly. I thought the Kelly controller was a really good deal at $199 - RMartin wants $450 for a replacement controller. So now I get to totally rethink my choices....

Oh well ........

Tim

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Tim:

Sorry to hear about this. Hopefully they will allow a return. In March, 'Fany' from Kelly had this recommendation about my overheating issues:

'I will suggest the controller KEB72601 (72V 200A peak 100A continuous regen) to you. Do you like regen brake? If not, you may consider the controller KEB72600. Please see: http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=278 The controller can operate with 24V-72V nominal batteries. I think the controller you are using is not enough strong to drive the motor.' Looks like they want $349 for it.

After seeing this I considered looking at some of their motors as well, thinking that a matched set might be the most effective method of overcoming the deficiencies of the current setup. What I found on the positive side was that Mavizen, a builder of road-racing electric motorcycles, is using Kelly Controllers. On the negative side were the individual users who dealt with various customer service issues.

Their web site does not seem to indicate the motor or controller phases but, logically, a pole every 60 degrees ...

Jeff

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Steven Li assures me the phase wires can handle the current. He says the KBS72121 controller is intended for 2 KW motors, so using two controllers to drive a single 3 KW motor should be no problem. He does advise mounting the controller to metal that can help dissipate heat. Since heat has been a problem for me, I plan to mount the two new controllers inside the large heat-sinking case from the old controller. If I continue to have heat problems, I can add a fan, though I will have to be careful to make it "splash-proof".

Does anyone know what I should set as the max current to the motor?

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Tim:

I've actually made some progress on my cooling project. I have two, one inch plastic pieces epoxied into the end plates of the controller. Also have a good length of 1 inch inside diameter plastic piping, a fan and a filter for the incoming end.

All this sounds great except while working on the end plate there were these paired black an white wires that appeared to extend across the plate area and must plug in somewhere on the curcuit board. As I was working on the plate with all the wires on it, the black and white wire set fell out, exposing a two-pronged plug on the end. I have no idea where this is supposed to plug in. Also, sicne the heat syncs are glued in, it is nigh unto impossible to extract them so that I can do a thorough once over of the board to find a sympathetic recepticle.

Do you remember such a pair of wires that appear to go from one side of the circuit board to the other? My hope is that they are not normally plugged in (highly wishful thinking). If I have to find wherever it plugs in, I will definitely have to head to our physics department to get some help.

Anyway, thanks for whatever guidance you may have. Hope your experience with the controller(s) is successful.

Jeff

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

TimWms
Offline
Joined: 05/03/2010
Points: 31
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Jeff,
Since there are two controller boards, only one board is connected to the diagnostic LED. The black & white pair are for the diagnostic LED of the second board, and are left unconnected.
Tim

__________________

Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Well, It's been awhile since I posted here. After a four year hiatus, my R Martin EVD is back together. I created a cooling system for a controller using one inch clear aquarium tubing, a breather filter for a car's PCV system, some plastic inserts used for cables to go in and out of desks, some PVC elbows and a 12V cooling fan from Radio shack. Think I'll get a video together showing what I did if anyone is interested.

Since putting it together again, the temperatures have been quite cool so there have been no issues with the controller heating up. Oh, and it was converted to 72 volts a few years ago.

Would love to source some spares for this unit - like a working controller. I only have one key and need to work on finding a spare.

Anyone else driving these things around anymore? PM me at jeff@cfocolleague.net if you want a video of what I did.

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Been enjoying the R Martin EVD . Top speed is a bit higher with the new batteries. I am getting 57 and over 60 down hills. Today, however, a ne issue cropped up. As is the case when the motor gets hot, the machine drops to 5 mph mode for no apparent reason. It happens after I have been running about a mile or so. It then limps along until it chugs a few times and regains its speed. Switching it off then on again works sometimes. Nothing feels hot. I'm thinking a sensor is malfunctioning somewhere.

The reality of these machines is that there are precious few parts to be had anywhere, they have an interesting but unique six phase approach to propulsion and they have the quality of a Chinese engineered and manufactured unit.

So, I'm looking for ideas. One thought has been to somehow disconnect the motor heat sensor. Also giving some thought to a Kelly controller / hub motor combination. Have seen a 72V/6kW controller with regen and a matching 13" hub motor, also rated for 6kW. Top end is potentially over 60 mph and regen is an interesting addition. Might even get me a little reverse action if I put on the brake and twist the throttle (brake switch activated). Problem is that it will set me back a grand. Added to new batteries, I'm staring at a recent download of $1,500 for this machine. Alas, had I done nothing, it wasn't worth much.

I thus may have two hub motors and a possible controller for sale. The controller would be somewhat unreliable but, if you're looking to cannibalize the circuit board components, you may find what you need there. All of it would go cheap to a good home. The shipping would not be cheap but at least it wouldn't be marked up. Other ideas are welcome as well.

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

deleted duplicate entry

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

MEroller
MEroller's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 842
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Spearo wrote:

Have seen a 72V/6kW controller with regen and a matching 13" hub motor, also rated for 6kW.

Careful with the 6kW Kelly: They only talk about ELECTRICAL power. With the motor it is always MECHANICAL power. So you must always size your Kelly taking into account controller and motor efficiency. Usually divide your motor power by 0.8 to find required Kelly power, which would be 7.5kW. So if you get yourself an 8kW Kelly with the right battery voltage rating your 6kW "Kelly" motor (it is actually a Quan Shun) can be fed suffciently ;-)

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

I picked up a motor and controller from what I think was this Rmartin EVD. Everything matches up to what is said here.

I am going to mount it on a different 2 wheeler. I understand the 3 wire plug is the hall throttle. And the plug coming out halfway on the harness is the kickstand safety. (open= kickstand up)

The other two plugs I was looking for confirmation of what they are. I am guessing the purple/orange wire is for a controller cutoff/brakelight? Purple goes to BRK on the controller.

Then does the other 2 wire plug (red/white) go to ignition (and so I need to short these to turn on controller?

And if you want to read more about this motor, I think it's the same 6 phase hub as JohnInCR sells as "Hubmonster" on endless-sphere, and was used on this build, among others: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41414
hillsofvalp used two Kelly controllers to drive it, with over 30kw from the battery.

I am thinking of putting this on a small motorcycle with my 75v Nissan Leaf cells. It sounds like there might a HVC that might not allow that voltage though.

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

I believe I have a wiring diagram at home for this. Traveling at the moment. Can look it over when I get home (Monday) and potentially scan it and send it to you.

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

That would be great, thanks!

Also, does anyone know if this stock controller can regen?

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

I am attaching a PDF of the wiring diagram for the EVD. I will also look up the wiring coloring schema from a previous post that Tim Williams provided in 2010.

EVD wiring diagram.jpg

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

And here is the promised repost of Mr. Williams post some time ago. This should provide the wiring information you need:
---------

I dug into the wiring and documented everything as best I could. When I uncovered the heavy gauge wire connections, I see several covered in a heavy plastic/fabric tube, but two of them are covered in cheap plastic tape that has worn through at the bolts connecting the lugs. I suspect these shorted out when I was twisting the bundle to get to the diagnostic LED connector. So anyway, I need a new controller. I am 90% sure I will order a KBS7121 from Kelly Controls. Here are my wiring observations:
BLC3000 Rev A controller for 6 Phase 3KW hub motor on EVD Scooter

Two identical PCBs

Thick gauge wires:
Thickest RED - Power +
Two black med gauge wires - Gnd

Phase wires - connected to motor windings: Color in controller matches color from motor.
PCB1:
Label Color
MA Green
MB Yellow
MC Blue

PCB2:
Label Color
MA Black
MB Red
MC White

Motor sensor wire connector pin numbering: (arbitrary)

Clip
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10

Note: Connections labeled Gnd and 5VO on PCBs is reversed.

PCB Label Signal Color Connector Pin Color on opposite connector
1 GND 5V Red 5 Red
1 5VO Gnd Black 4 Black
1 HA Hall A1 Yellow 3 White
1 HB Hall B1 Blue 1 Purple
1 HC Hall C1 Green 2 Blue

2 GND 5V Red 10 Red
2 5VO Gnd Black 9 Black
2 HA Hall A2 Yellow 6 White
2 HB Hall B2 Blue 8 Purple
2 HC Hall C2 Green 7 Blue

To Bike controls:

Red KSI Battery power from Key switch Red
Purple BRK Brake signal (12V?) Purple

Red +5V Diagnostic LED + Red
White CZ Diagnostic LED - Green

Black Gnd Ground to Throttle Black
White IN Input from Throttle White
Red 5V +5V to Throttle Red

Other:
Motor over temp sensor output to brake light circuit (which also cuts off controller)

Black
Black/White

From the wiring schematic, I noticed the motor overtemp circuit ties in to the brake lights, so you should be able to tell if the motor is overheating by seeing if the brake lights are on when you are not using the brakes (or the kick-stand).

The Diagnostic table show that overheating will cause the LED to flash 2, then 3 times, but I don't see any way for the controller to know when the motor overheats, just when the controller overheats, so I would expect the LED to not flash when the motor is overheating.

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Thanks for posting the diagram. However, it is not readable. Is there anything you can do to make it clearer? Thanks

Spearo
Offline
Joined: 03/18/2010
Points: 23
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

My email is jeff(at)cfocolleague(dot)net Send me an email and I'll attach the file.

__________________

EVD VRLA converted to 72V

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Thanks Spearo for sending me the file. I can read it now.

Maybe I am bad at reading electrical schematics, but I still don't understand how to turn on the controller. Shorting the purple(BRK) and red(KSI - listed as orange in the above post) does not turn it on.

My best guess at this moment is that I need to connect KSI to battery+ to turn controller on. And then BRK to battery+ to enact the brake cutoff.

I want to try this, but don't want to ruin the controller if I am wrong. Can someone confirm that battery+ is connecting to the key switch?

Looking at the schematic, it appears to have an error as the are connecting the cathode(+) to battery neg. So that is kind of screwing up being able to read it. Or.... they meant to write anode, not cathode. That would make a lot more sense.

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Sometimes you just have to take a chance. And this time it worked. KSI (orange wire next to purple wire on 2 wire connector) goes to Battery + to turn the controller on. I'm guessing BRK connects to Batt+ when you pull in the brake as a cut off.

MEroller
MEroller's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/26/2011
Points: 842
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

By the way, with batteries the naming of kathode and anode are prone to be reversed from the normal definition, probably due to their reversable nature (charging and discharging). Good to hear of your success!

__________________

My rides:
QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight... Now converted to more controllable and efficient brushless motor and vector-contoller.

E-Sprit Fury (basis is the Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Highly moded - but now in active retirement

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

Is this system designed for a hall throttle or 5k? I can't get my hall throttles to work, but my 5k Magura does, with one hickup - when I let off the throttle the motor jolts badly with a loud noise.

I'm going to try more hall throttles because I read in another thread the input is 0-5v.

The no-load current is amazingly low on this motor though! I was reading 1 to 2 amps at about half speed.

I have it mounted on the back of a Ninja 250, eager to test ride it, but no brakes working yet.

veloman
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2014
Points: 32
Re: 60v to 72v upgrade on a VRLA EVD

I am told that a hall throttle is used on this scooter.

Now I hooked up an led to the diagnostic plug and can see I am getting an error code with my hall throttle connected. It is 3 very quick flashes, short pause and repeats.

Does anyone know what that means?

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.



Who's new

  • Loker
  • supertwike
  • Martin_EV4
  • acsatue
  • 186kmps

Customize This