Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

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founder
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Look at this announced scooter at Honda

http://world.honda.com/news/2010/2100413EV-neo/

A joke! 30km range at 30 km/h

But compare the design to this electric scooter from China

http://www.e-mopeds.com/index.php/product/GK-H2.html

Equipped with 20 cells 40 Ah or 60 Ah lithium iron phosphat from Thundersky good enough
for 80 or 120 km at 45 km/h

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robert93
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

My thought is, that saying it is "degraded" may apply to quoted range/speed specs, but, the Honda specs may be honest conservative specs. Build quality of Honda products is usually rock solid, something I wont say about the chinese manufacturing from what I have read on posts and personal experience with my scooter. My biggest dislike is that it has e-bike power and range, yet lacks the pedal system that would legally make it an ebike... something that affects the "non-licensed public" (i know, small minority) I applaud a major builder coming into this market, and would love to see an actual "head to head" on a neutral test track and team of engineers ripping them both apart for exhaustive review.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

I agree with Robert calling it "degraded" is somewhat misleading. I've no doubt that they will make a product with superior quality to the other bike you link to.

However, it actually helps highlight the fact that just like the major auto-makers the major cycle-makers are taking their usual ultra-cautious approach to the EV market. Just like any of the big car companies could build a car to compete with the Tesla Honda could build a motorcycle to compete with the Mission One. They choose not to. Instead they choose to introduce these cautious and anemic products instead.

I wonder why?

Perhaps they don't want to sell many EVs yet because they're experts in building internal combustion engines and they see a ready market for the ICE for many years yet. However, they can't afford to be left behind so they spend a few million on things like the Neo. Equal parts of PR and keeping an eye on the EV market. But zero part of it is to make money or to try and sell a ton of these. That's all just idle speculation - it could be they see a really big market for 18 mph / 18 mile range mopeds...

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founder
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

jdh2550_1 wrote:

I agree with Robert calling it "degraded" is somewhat misleading. I've no doubt that they will make a product with superior quality to the other bike you link to.

However, it actually helps highlight the fact that just like the major auto-makers the major cycle-makers are taking their usual ultra-cautious approach to the EV market. Just like any of the big car companies could build a car to compete with the Tesla Honda could build a motorcycle to compete with the Mission One. They choose not to. Instead they choose to introduce these cautious and anemic products instead.

I wonder why?

Perhaps they don't want to sell many EVs yet because they're experts in building internal combustion engines and they see a ready market for the ICE for many years yet. However, they can't afford to be left behind so they spend a few million on things like the Neo. Equal parts of PR and keeping an eye on the EV market. But zero part of it is to make money or to try and sell a ton of these. That's all just idle speculation - it could be they see a really big market for 18 mph / 18 mile range mopeds...

I test now electric scooters since 2006.

When the batteries become worse and worse and the range decreases to 30 km at reduced speed, I call my dealer

"Please replace this terrible scrap of batteries, my range has gone down to 30 km"

Who should accept something like this in a new scooter?

Who really thinks, Honda makes this scooter? I think they order it from China without batteries.
Honda likes more to have only 30km range than to go with Chinese batteries.

mf70
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

"Please replace this terrible scrap of batteries, my range has gone down to 30 km"

Who should accept something like this in a new scooter?

Who really thinks, Honda makes this scooter? I think they order it from China without batteries.
Honda likes more to have only 30km range than to go with Chinese batteries.

It would be bought by hard-eyed delivery-centered businesses that

  • know that a promise from Honda of 30Km means it will still be running at full power after 30 Km of deliveries.
  • that know there will be quick and easy parts availability
  • that know the connectors won't corrode, warp, or jiggle apart
  • that are happy with a 20 minute recharge time

Of course it will be built in China. But it will be built under Honda inspections and to Honda specifications. Same for the batteries.

FedEx tried "rolling its own" electric on a larger scale, but couldn't hit the sweet spot of demand vs. production cost. Let's hope Honda makes it.

mark

founder
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

mf70 wrote:

"Please replace this terrible scrap of batteries, my range has gone down to 30 km"

Who should accept something like this in a new scooter?

Who really thinks, Honda makes this scooter? I think they order it from China without batteries.
Honda likes more to have only 30km range than to go with Chinese batteries.

It would be bought by hard-eyed delivery-centered businesses that

  • know that a promise from Honda of 30Km means it will still be running at full power after 30 Km of deliveries.
  • that know there will be quick and easy parts availability
  • that know the connectors won't corrode, warp, or jiggle apart
  • that are happy with a 20 minute recharge time

Of course it will be built in China. But it will be built under Honda inspections and to Honda specifications. Same for the batteries.

FedEx tried "rolling its own" electric on a larger scale, but couldn't hit the sweet spot of demand vs. production cost. Let's hope Honda makes it.

mark

Instead of promisses, I would like to know V, Ah and battery type.
So I can judge with my experiences the range.

"30km at 30km/h on flat" does not mean to stop 100 times for deliveries.

Also they write "Lithium Ion" battery on their own web site.
I do not like Lithium Ion batteries in this size, they are not suitable for electric propulsion,
I prefer Lithium iron phosphat batteries from a trusted vendor like Thundersky

What You write here about Honda is something like apple religious worship

founder
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Points: 88
Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

mf70 wrote:

"Please replace this terrible scrap of batteries, my range has gone down to 30 km"

Who should accept something like this in a new scooter?

Who really thinks, Honda makes this scooter? I think they order it from China without batteries.
Honda likes more to have only 30km range than to go with Chinese batteries.

It would be bought by hard-eyed delivery-centered businesses that

  • know that a promise from Honda of 30Km means it will still be running at full power after 30 Km of deliveries.
  • that know there will be quick and easy parts availability
  • that know the connectors won't corrode, warp, or jiggle apart
  • that are happy with a 20 minute recharge time

Of course it will be built in China. But it will be built under Honda inspections and to Honda specifications. Same for the batteries.

FedEx tried "rolling its own" electric on a larger scale, but couldn't hit the sweet spot of demand vs. production cost. Let's hope Honda makes it.

mark

Instead of promisses, I would like to know V, Ah and battery type.
So I can judge with my experiences the range.

"30km at 30km/h on flat" does not mean to stop 100 times for deliveries.

Also they write "Lithium Ion" battery on their own web site.
I do not like Lithium Ion batteries in this size, they are not suitable for electric propulsion,
I prefer Lithium iron phosphat batteries from a trusted vendor like Thundersky

What You write here about Honda is something like apple religious worship

dp
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

"What You write here about Honda is something like apple religious worship"

I haven't owned a Honda motorcycle for 20 years but I know their motorbikes and cars have better quality than the Chinese electric scooter that I currently drive.

It's not a great leap in logic to assume that Honda, Yamaha or Suzuki or Kawasaki could provide us electric bikes that meet the claimed specs and have better quality and customer service.

I welcome the entry of the Japanese motorcycle makers in this area. When they compete against each other in this market the resulting products could be quite good.

founder
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

dp wrote:

"What You write here about Honda is something like apple religious worship"

I haven't owned a Honda motorcycle for 20 years but I know their motorbikes and cars have better quality than the Chinese electric scooter that I currently drive.

It's not a great leap in logic to assume that Honda, Yamaha or Suzuki or Kawasaki could provide us electric bikes that meet the claimed specs and have better quality and customer service.

I welcome the entry of the Japanese motorcycle makers in this area. When they compete against each other in this market the resulting products could be quite good.

I like more a Chinese electric scooter claiming 150km range and has really only 70% of this than 100% of 30km at 30 km/h on flat street.

30 km at 30 km/h translates into 20 km at 45 km/h.

With 30 km/h, the similar looking Chinese with 60V 60Ah would make 150km or more

dp
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

"I like more a Chinese electric scooter claiming 150km range and has really only 70% of this than 100% of 30km at 30 km/h on flat street."

Is any Chinese electric scooter claiming 150km range and getting 70% of that? If not, you are making a comparison to something that doesn't exist. That doesn't seem a fair comparison.

I think 120 km for an E-Fun D is the greatest claimed range I have ever seen. Is anybody really getting 84 km per charge out of these bikes?

I would not be too quick to judge this Honda bike too harshly. It's an early effort and it isn't even out yet. It might fail. It might succeed and improve into something good.

robert93
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

Mileage claims be hanged, I'd rather see a quality bike. I've seen Honda, Susuki, Yamaha all produce quality products that held up to rough handling in the 50cc gas engine size. I've also seen pictures of Chinese scooters that couldnt make it across the ocean in a cardboard box. Honda has put their foot in the arena, lets see what happens when the EV Neo makes it to market. The Honda may "look" like the China bike, but, its got a Corporate name and distributorship that is far more reliable and trustworthy for replacement/service parts. Who cares about containers of scooters if you cant get parts for them without buying another container of equally poor scooters? Even the ones building good product suffer from the reputations of the ones building/distributing bad ones. There's probably a dozen other bikes that look like that design, but are configured differently on the battery and mileage claims. If they are equally matched in battery size, chemistry, power rating, then you have a fair model to compare to. A "AA" cell and a car battery are not a fair comparison.

Mik
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

Quote:

TOKYO, Japan, April 13, 2010 - Honda Motor Co., Ltd. revealed the latest prototype of the EV-neo electric scooter and announced plans to begin lease sales in Japan in December 2010 to businesses and individual business owners that provide mainly delivery services.

I think the important part is lease sales! And only in Japan, like the first (NHW10) Prius model by Toyota in 1997/98.

Keep it close to home at first, so you can inspect any failed components and learn as much as possible. Just exchange it with a new scooter if some problem occurs! Expect a loss and a steep learning curve, then iron out the bugs and produce a worldwide winner 5 years later!

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Spaceangel
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

What are the specifications of scooter? Sharp for carrying stuff though. AC, DC brushed?, DC brushless? How many KW?

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kaidokert
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

I know its an old thread, didnt find a newer one.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/26/hondas-ev-neo-electric-scooter-to-make-its-european-debut-in-ju/
http://world.honda.com/EV-neo/spec/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVqtAazjbqU

Have any other established brands brought electric scooters to market yet ?

Persona Non-Grata
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

Just to add my comment. I would rather have something that didn’t need servicing from a dealer, have unexpected breakdowns, nor become a very expensive lawn ornament after less than 5 years of use ( sourced from personal experience). Even if it supposedly didn’t go as far per charge as the less durable alternatives. If distance becomes a problem, I can add batteries in saddlebags over the back wheel connected in parallel, especially if they are the lithium ion or related types who‘s weight is not as much an issue as those of other batteries.

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fivari
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

kaidokert wrote:

Have any other established brands brought electric scooters to market yet ?

I know Kreidler has some electric scooters. Kreidler is a relatively known brand. The prices can compete with other brands, are even low: 2999€ for 3000W motor and 48V40Ah Lithium battery.
Also Peugeot has this Viva e-city 4000W motor with two 1kWh lithium ion batteries: price 4300€. Claimed range at 45 km/h 45-60 km.
About the claimed range. It would be better to provide the energy content (capacity) of the battery. The range is highly dependent from the circumstances. Just as with cars: producers provide the consumption for a standard ride, but nobody is able to achieve the same low consumption on average. The same goes for electric scooters. The range is under ideal circumstances. Since the electric HUB motors all have a similar high efficiency of about 90%, the only thing that matters in order to compare different scooters is the type of battery and the capacity.

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mf70
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

It would be better to provide the energy content (capacity) of the battery.

For us, perhaps. Remember who they're talking to: those hip metro-types that are seeing this as an alternative to a $25,000 Mini-Cooper rather than as an EV lifestyle.

Switching to electric is a radical change in the technology, and it will take a while before KWH is as comprehensible to Joe Cool as MPG.

Mark

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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

When I think about electric vehicles, I find that I think in how long they will last at maximum consumption then think of how long of travel in time it takes to go somewhere. Such as mine at 48v x 20ah = 960watthours (ie: 960 watts consumed in 1 hour). Take into consideration that the scooter has a motor rated at 500w consumption, 960 / 500 = 1.92 hours (close enough to 2 hours) of use at maximum charge at maximum consumption. And in the general area that I live people do tend to talk in time of travel and not distance.

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jthmi
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

Who talks in terms of runtime except boaters or pilots? I should get five hours on this tank of gas-not in my neighborhood it's more like: at 63mph I'll get about 600 miles/tank. FYI, 2009 VW Jetta Diesel/6 speed stick real world.

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Persona Non-Grata
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

Hi,
Boaters, pilots, or otherwise (including those who themselves don't drive), if a tourist asks where somthing is the responce is an hour's drive to where ever somthing is, 30 minuites up/down the, lake 15 minuites that way, 2 hours that way, etc... Probably just another oddity of this area.

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mf70
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Re: Is the Honda EV NEO a degraded Chinese electric scooter?

Aside from "jthmi"'s pointless reply, you might want to reconsider your expected mileage. You say:

Such as mine at 48v x 20ah = 960watthours (ie: 960 watts consumed in 1 hour). Take into consideration that the scooter has a motor rated at 500w consumption, 960 / 500 = 1.92 hours (close enough to 2 hours) of use at maximum charge at maximum consumption.

Unfortunately, there are a number of limitations to the numbers you quoted.

  • First, I am assuming this is a SLA pack, much like the one I've got in my XB600. SLA batteries suffer from the Peukert effect: Drawing a heavy current reduces the usable amount of energy stored in the battery. The 20AH rating is at a 20 hour rate: the rate needed to discharge the battery to cutoff (probably 10.5V) in 20 hours. Obviously, this means discharging at ONE amp. At ~10A draw, the capacity of such a battery is around 14AH.
  • Furthermore, I am assuming a healthy, balanced pack, not one that has been changed with the stock series charger for a year. A pack is only as strong as its weakest link, and it is easy to get an unbalanced pack with a series charging setup (see other discussions of serries/ parallel charging on this site).
  • Second, a 500W motor will draw significantly more than 500 W. My nominal 700W hubmotor in the XB600 draws a measured 950W at peak draw.
  • Third, running the battery below 50% State of Charge (SOC) sharply reduces battery life.
  • Finally, (and this is the only point that relates to "jthmi's" objection), if you are thinking of a trip in terms of time, that will probably be developed from experience on an overpowered IC vehicle driving at the speed limit. At least in my XB600's case, that is far out of reach; the system is firmly regulated to a maximum of 20 MPH. A steady climb will rarely see much above 14MPH. (You will not be keeping up with a motorcycle, but you WILL be far ahead of a friend on a bicycle.)

Put together, you're going to be traveling far less than 1.92 hours when your pack runs out.

On the other hand, there are some favorable exceptions to the numbers as well:

  • The other side of Peukert is that reduced power drain immediately yields increased power reserve; if you find yourself dipping toward the red, simply reducing speed can give you a significant "limp home" range. (You do know that you need to be looking at the voltmeter under load to check SOC don't you? Looking down at a stop sign will show only a happy resting pack at near full voltage.)
  • That same speed governor I wrote of works by automatically throttling back at the controller, no matter what you've twisted the grip to do. On my scoot, power draw at full speed on a flat road is around 300W (of course, there ARE no flat roads around my area...). The real world power usage (up hills and stop and go traffic) I'm seeing is 45WH per mile. Aiming at a safe 50% SOC max discharge fromj a pack with 1KWH capacity discounted to .75KWH as a nod to Peukert, that would mean a 16 mile range (I'm afraid I think in terms of miles too, like jthmi, though that would probably mean about an hour's riding.)

Net result, I'd guess you could ride for about an hour with that pack. Remember, you wouldn't get as far as a friend on a Ninja 900 in that hour!

To bring this thread back to the original point, it looks like a great many users are getting utility out of real world ranges near or less than the Honda's. Whether doing this is worth paying the Honda premium for reliability and service will be an individual decision.

Mark

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