Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on constantly?

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zigalisr01
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Ok, This is a great forum. I wish I had found this before I bought my XM-4000. It is more trouble then it is worth. For $4030.00 I expected it to work when it arrived. Any way, the first one arrive on 7/27/10. The next one arrive 8/26, after an 1.5 hours of unpacking I find it does not run. The battery meter says 3/4 full, all the lights work, the red low voltage light is on, but no motor. So, after several email about how sorry I was that I bought this the tech support people called me and we got it running. Now after 4 weeks of emails with tech support I still don't know why that red low voltage light is on constantly.

Does any have any ideas?

I will spare everyone all of my complaining. After reading all the enthusiasm here I feel somewhat better about my XM-4000.

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Johnny J
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

I have a 3500Li which is made by a different manufacturer, but it´s still quite similar.
If you haven´t done it yet, see if you can find a resetable fuse/breaker under the seat, this controls the power to the controller and is propably turned off during transportation.

Have you charged the bike properly?
Another explaination for the red light would be the batteries are not charged enough and the low voltage cutoff is triggered in the controller.
This also cuts the power to the motor.

Just some ideas....

Take care!

Johnny

JasonTaylor
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

its a different bike, but the xm-3000 has the indicator light on
all the time the throttle is hot. Perhaps the labeling is for
the gas version. Does the manual actually say the light indicates
a low battery stack?

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zigalisr01
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

Hey thanks for the ideas. So the first response. When I first got the Xm-4000 the circuit breaker under the seat was off. That circuit breaker controls power to the motor. So, when I first turn on the key the red light is on. Then I put the circuit breaker to ON, charged it for 9 hours, rode around the block a few times. Waited a week, rode around some more, the red light is always on. The manual says "The flashing light indicates low voltage. Please reduce the speed to obtain extra running miles and recharge immediately." So, low voltage light. So, Jason on your 3500Li this red light that is just to the right of the clock and below the speedometer is on all the time? So, Jason would you say that the light is like a power is ON kind of indicator?

Mik
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

Maybe the red light begins to flash when the battery voltage or SOC get low? Have you tried to ride it until it's almost empty?

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JasonTaylor
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

Quote:

So, Jason on your 3500Li this red light that is just to the right of the clock and below the speedometer is on all the time?
EDIT: "INDICATOR" LIGHT IS LEFT OF SPEEDO, NOT BELOW

I have an xm-3000, different type of battery, no clock, but just below speedo. Yes, on all
time that ignition is on thus far.

Quote:

So, Jason would you say that the light is like a power is ON kind of indicator?

Exactly. Run it until it dies in high gear, go home in low gear, and post results about flashing test.
Or just keep headlamp on for hours.

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antiscab
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

before riding to see how far the bike goes,

what does the bike do when a single cell is nearing flat?

does it stop?
does it allow you to keep riding (and reverse the smallest cell)?
does it just flash the red light?

do you have an Ah counter on it at all?

the "hi/low" gear switch is just a voltage divider.

so instead of the accelerator being able to send 0-5v (0-100%) signal to the controller, its reduced to 0-2.5v (or 0 - 50%).

the low voltage cut out on the controller might be high enough that you aren't likely to reverse a cell, particularly if the pack is brand new.

running the headlight until it goes out is more likely to kill a cell, as the dc-dc low voltage cut outs are usually significantly lower than that of the motor controller.

I have a xm-5000li that I should be doing those tests on, but I have been waiting on a new shunt for my cycle analyst.

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

zigalisr01
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

I have a xm-5000li that I should be doing those tests on, but I have been waiting on a new shunt for my cycle analyst.

OK, Antiscab, thank you for your comments. I don't have an Ah meter. I don't know how I could tell if an individual cell was near flat or completely flat? I did find today that at 50 mph the range is about 5 - 8 miles. After that the red light starts blinking. I am not sure how full the charge was so, I will try again with a full charge.

I am very interested in the Cycle Analyst, I would like to hear about you experiences with it. Did you use the Stand-Alone shunt? I don't see how that can be installed. The wire on the shunt looks like 10 -12 gauge and the wire on my battery is 4 - 6 gauge. It seems like it would cut down on the current.

antiscab
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

zigalisr01 wrote:

I have a xm-5000li that I should be doing those tests on, but I have been waiting on a new shunt for my cycle analyst.

OK, Antiscab, thank you for your comments. I don't have an Ah meter. I don't know how I could tell if an individual cell was near flat or completely flat? I did find today that at 50 mph the range is about 5 - 8 miles. After that the red light starts blinking. I am not sure how full the charge was so, I will try again with a full charge.

I am very interested in the Cycle Analyst, I would like to hear about you experiences with it. Did you use the Stand-Alone shunt? I don't see how that can be installed. The wire on the shunt looks like 10 -12 gauge and the wire on my battery is 4 - 6 gauge. It seems like it would cut down on the current.

interesting, so the red light does blink when a cell gets low on voltage....

I suspect range at that higher speed will be limited more by the motor temperature than battery capacity, but time will tell.

With an Ah counter, I have a better idea of how much more energy is left in the pack.
in my bike, the cells are 60Ah.
so at around 50Ah, at high speed I would be expecting to start seeing low voltage on some cells.
at 60mph, you would be pulling ~100A continuous, so there will be significant sag before the battery is actually flat.

The cycle analyst I'm using on my other bike uses a bigger shunt, with bigger wires.

All the cycle analyst's have the same software, so if the original shunt is too small, you can replace it with a bigger one and program in the new shunts value.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Curious
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Points: 57
Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

You should get more than 5-8 miles at 50MPH. More like 15 or 20. It sounds like you may have a bad cell in your pack. The only way to tell is to remove the seat and check each cell individually with a volt meter. All the cells should read within ~.05V of each other. If you have any cells below 2.1V, they're bad and you need to contact X-Treme to get them replaced under warranty. They've taken care of me when I contacted them.

To remove the seat, open the seat and remove the four 10mm bolts from the storage area. You should be able to lift it out and disconnect the charging cable. Then, remove the two screws (one on each side) on the vented piece of plastic just below where the seat hinge is. You will have to wiggle it out, opening and closing the seat to give yourself room. Then, you will need to remove the seat itself. There are three bolts, and order is important because the mechanism is spring loaded! With the seat closed, remove farthest-forward bolt. Then open the seat and remove the other two bolts. Finally, use the key to remove the access panel on the floor between the seat and the dash. That's the most you'll be able to remove without more extensive work. That should give you enough room to access all the battery terminals to determine their state of charge.

If you find a bad cell you'll have to disconnect the 4-pack of cells that it's contained in. The cells are all held in place with double sided sticky foam on the bottom, and the ones on the front and back ends also have the tape on the sides. I had two bad cells in the very back, but I had to remove the adjacent block of 4 first to get some wiggle room because the ends are really stuck in there! If you have bad cells towards the front of the pack you may have to remove more body panels to be able to lift them out.

zigalisr01
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Points: 59
Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

Ok, thanks for the info. I got my Cycle Analyst a couple of days ago and decided to put it on this weekend. Since I was taking it apart anyway I decided to test all the battery voltages. You suggestions were most helpful. However, on my XM-4000 the front 2 rows of batteries are under the frame. No way to disconnect them to be measured. The groups in the back must be removed first and then the front ones moved back.
However, while disconnecting the copper straps 2 off them touched and shorted one of the strings together. So, not sure what to do next beside be very sad.

antiscab
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Points: 1598
Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

zigalisr01 wrote:

However, while disconnecting the copper straps 2 off them touched and shorted one of the strings together. So, not sure what to do next beside be very sad.

was the short momentary?

or was the short long enough for stuff to weld?

generally, as long as the cell voltages look ok, you got away with it.
a momentary short is nothing to worry about (except perhaps to avoid doing it again :) )

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

Johnny J
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Points: 327
Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

zigalisr01 wrote:

No way to disconnect them to be measured. The groups in the back must be removed first and then the front ones moved back.
However, while disconnecting the copper straps 2 off them touched and shorted one of the strings together. So, not sure what to do next beside be very sad.

You don´t have to disconnect the copper straps to measure the voltage of the individual cells...

John23
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

I just created a new topic on how to get the 4000li to start but I see you guys are talking about it here. I can't get mine to start. I charged it, the breaker switch is set to on but when i turn the key, the red light does not come on, no movement in the battery gauge, nothing. How did you get yours to run?

John23
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

I finally got my bike running. I'm having the same problem as you are with the red light indicator. I also see that I get about 5 miles at 50 mph before it starts blinking. I don't believe it's my battery. I didn't measure the individual cells but collectively they are putting out the recommended voltage. I'm wondering if you were able to diagnos the problem?

Curious
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

About this red light... The controller is constantly monitoring the pack's voltage and will throttle back to prevent it from going under a predetermined value. The thing is, all batteries' voltage sag when they are under heavy load. LiFePO4 generally sags about 10%. Does the red light go off when you ease off the throttle? If so, then it is probably a voltage sag issue. It thinks the batteries are reaching their LVC (low voltage cutoff), but really they are just being pushed a bit too hard.

John23
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

That seems like a design flaw. I wonder if it's possible to make the logic for the batteries to understand the difference between driving it and it truly being 10% full. In any case, u r absolutely correct. I did about 13 miles yesterday. Most of it was start/stop with traffic, lights, and stop signs. It was about 60% full when I got home so I guess that's about right. The red light is always on, even after a full charge but it only blinks after I've gone about 5 miles. When I let go of the throttle, it stays on but stops blinking and the battery gauge goes back to high. I can live with the light being on because at least the thing runs. I'll only pay attention to the battery gauge when I've stopped. Thanks!

Curious
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

The "battery gauge" is the reason I put in a Cycle Analyst. Instead of reading just the pack voltage, it actually counts the amps and watt-hours coming out of the pack. It's the only accurate way of determining how much charge you have left. The volt gauge on your dash fluctuates too much, and at rest a pack at 80% charge will have the same voltage as a pack at 30% charge. A Cycle Analyst is $140 to $150 depending on the model and you'll also need an $18 shunt. You can call it a design flaw (and I would agree with you), but to the Chinese manufacturer it was a "$0.50 vs $165" decision.

The controller can't read the state of charge from the Cycle Analyst, so it will still throw up the red light if you push it too hard. The Cycle Analyst, though, does have the ability to modify the throttle signal to prevent a LVC situation.

And anyway, you might be able to get a replacement controller under warranty if the red light never turns off. The red light shouldn't be on unless there is a problem.

The battery pack in the bike is worth about $1000, and while the manufacturer is pretty good about replacing bad cells under warranty, I consider the Cycle Analyst a layer of safety and reliability. I also bought six single-cell chargers from VoltPhreaks for about $8 each and use them to manually balance my pack every couple of months. Having had to replace cells, their actual charge levels were all over the place even though they all read 3.30v. Now that they're all in balance I feel confident in riding the bike for longer ranges.

zigalisr01
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

Yeah I would agree a design flaw. The "fuel" gauge is just a voltage meter. So 66 volts is full and 63 volts is empty and the red light starts to flash. I know this because I too got a Cycle Analyst. http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml. This is well worth the money. The red light should be on all the time. I assumed that to mean the bike is ready to go, be careful. You should really get the Cycle Analyst it will make you feel so much better about riding and how far you can really go. It was pretty easy to install, I will post a picture of mine when I get home. Be sure you buy the high current shunt. I see 80 - 83 amps when I start off for about 5 seconds. Then about 15 - 20 amps cruising at 30 mph. For any acceleration the current will jump to 80 amps.

zigalisr01
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

I also bought six single-cell chargers from VoltPhreaks for about $8 each and use them to manually balance my pack every couple of months. Having had to replace cells, their actual charge levels were all over the place even though they all read 3.30v. Now that they're all in balance I feel confident in riding the bike for longer ranges.

So, I am interested in the single cell VoltPhreaks chargers. I recently have had a cell explode so I am looking for ways to test the packs and charging each cell sounds like something I would like. How do you connect those chargers? How do you tell when the cell is charged? Do you disconnect the copper bus bars before hooking up the charger?

theBOZman
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Re: Just purchased XM-4000Li; Why is the Red light on ...

I just got a 5000li. I love it so far. The red light is always on. It was supposed to be a low voltage light, but appears to be a "on" indicator. It will blink if I have low voltage or nail the throttle really hard. I can let off on the throttle and usually control the discharge enough to keep it from blinking from hard accelerations. I commute 17+ miles each way "full throttle" to work. I have gone to work and back on a single charge with tons of battery to spare.

Mine was a show room model that I got for a sweet deal. It was shipped just strapped to a pallet without the protective metal cage. It arrived fine. I guess I got lucky with this one. "crosses fingers".

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