Extreme XB-600

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JamesS
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Hello everyone I'm new here so take it easy on me.

Got my XB-600 3 days ago and finally got to ride it other than to work.
My impressions...

Top speed is 20mph on flat (I weight 155lbs)
Distance: rode 21 miles today (confirmed by GPS) and still showed 3/4 charge
I did not ride full speed. tried to keep between 10 and 15 mph. I did ride 7.5 miles uphill almost all the way, a 1000 ft climb to the continental divide with no problems. the return trip was much faster using my brakes to keep from going over 40mph.

My jaw about dropped when I saw the box it came in on the truck. Needless to say I have some body damage. Front faring cracked in multiple spots, head light assembly completely broken out of bike, front fender cracked, left side damage.

I got a call back in about 1/2 hour after posting to Extremes website about the damage so I think that is a plus. Will keep you posted as to how long it takes to get the replacement parts.

I had a RAD2GO scooter that cost 4 times as much until I was hit by a car and I must say it's ride was much superior. The tiny shocks make the XB-600 a little rough, but not unbearable.

I tried installing the pedals but they are a joke. You cannot pedal fast enough! I removed the chain to reduce drag, also because it was loose and needed adjusting. easier to remove than adjust.

Lighting is just so so. Even with two headlights (of course mine are taped in place) they don't seem to shine far enough down the road. My mountain bike with a $12 4 AA cell headlight seems to do better. But I must be honest with the headlight assembly taped in place I might not be fair.

There is no small storage unit near the key unless you call a helmet hook a storage place. The under seat storage is ample, I recommend putting the rear storage box on. It will rattle a bit when traversing bumps but the added space is for me a must.

Yes this is an electric bicycle, it is not fast on take off, but it will get you around town with reasonable speed and comfort.

My rating of what was advertised as to what was delivered is a full 8.9 out of 10.

Will try to keep you up to date as my impression grows over the long haul.

The owners manual is a... well lets say less then perfect and if you are not a mechanic then putting on the front wheel may be a bit hard. Other than that you will be riding your XB in about an hour or so.

Ride safe my friends,

James

P.S getting hit by a car broadside does HURT!

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Happy scooting,
JamesS

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

I will check the heat from the motor next time I ride. I ordered a 72v controller already for $68 shipped off ebay, so I'll add 2 more batteries and see what happens. If the motor fries I'll order the 2000 watt motor from extreme and go again. It'll still be cheaper than the xm 2000 and have cool looks too.

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gushar
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Re: Extreme XB-600

This is all interesting...since I'm an xb600 owner. But what if the controller is limiting amps...as Andrew??or whoever suggested...and the motor can take more? Then, just changing to another suitable controller would give us more speed on hills...as he suggested...right? I mean I know the xb600 has a range of about 30 miles. I did this one time...rode it till I could barely get in the driveway...and I was at 29.2 miles on an accurate bike computer I have installed on mine. I don't really need that range. Most of my rides are 2-3 miles tops. Also, I've felt the motor before to see if it gets hot...on hills as I recall too...and I don't ever recall the motor being anything other than warm. Never hot enough that you couldn't hold your hand on it continuously. Maybe we have a motor that can take more juice...and give us more hill climbing speed if we just switched controllers. So what if we lose even half of the range. 15 miles is still alot of riding for me! Course I'm fine with it the way it is...although it would be nice to go alittle faster up hills. I think you have to weigh in as well "how fast the scooter is really designed for." I mean it rides "solid" at 20-25. But I've been as fast as about 33mph going down a hill...and I don't think it is designed for anything much faster than that. It would be fun to have just an increase to 25mph on the flats. That would be great to me...and certainly fast enough! But again, I'm not complaining...I really do like it just the way it is.

Be sure and let us know if you do mod it and what the results are! And where did you get it for $750? Was that to the terminal? I may want another one in the future and I'd like to know where you got that price.

Gushar

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

I bought mine off ebay from an authorized dealer (x-treme drop ships). It was actually $739 + shipping. I agree with you on the motor handling more. All the hub motors on the chinese web site I looked at were for 24v- 72v applications. I think they are also limited by the controller somehow. I read somewhere there is a wire you can cut to undo the speed governor(not sure on this). I also don't need 30 mile range. It's 5-6 miles from my house to work, but 12 mph up a hill is unbearable(to me and the cars behind me). If I can get this bike going 30- 35mph and 20- 25 mph up hills with the 72v controller I ordered and 2 more batteries, we'll have some good looking, streetworthy scooters. Even if you ordered the throttle, controller, and motor for the xm 2000 from x-treme and put on the xb 600, it would still cost way less than the xm 2000, and look better too. If this experiment fails, that will be my next try.

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jbird
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Re: Extreme XB-600

I would like you to consider some things about trying to go faster especially up hills. The specs on your old controller according to X-treme's website is 48V and 48A (2304W) while the new eb@y controller is 72V and 28A (2016W.) If both specs are right, the new controller will be less powerful than the old one and likely accelerate slower but possibly reach a higher speed. I say possibly because to go faster you must overcome wind resistance which goes up by the square of the velocity if the coefficient of drag is constant. To make things worse for the new controller will be the extra weight (~30lbs with two 12V 17-20AH batteries added) which will have to be accelerated too. This should hurt your hill climbing ability although you may be able to build up more speed before hitting the hill initially. To further complicate matters, you need to make sure that your DC-DC converter will handle the extra voltage okay. Most are rated from 30V-60V. This is usually found on a sticker on the bottom of the unit. If you get the new controller, you probably should plan to modify the internal shunt to deliver more than 28A to the motor. During the modification, you should go slow and monitor the motor temperatures after hill climbing and long rides so you don't do damage and need to buy a new brushless hub motor.

andrew
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Quote:

The specs on your old controller according to X-treme's website is 48V and 48A (2304W) while the new eb@y controller is 72V and 28A (2016W.)

The specs on X-treme's website are most likely wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the controller was actually limiting to <20 amps max. 2304 watts is about 9 times as much power as someone in reasonable physical condition can put out for a short period to climb hills on a bicycle. That's close to the max power output of a 50 cc scooter.

But, what you are saying is correct. Actually, if the new controller max current was lower, than hill climbing would most likely be worse. Because what the controller does is limit the voltage to control the current. So on a steep hill if the original current limit was being met than the controller was actually limiting the voltage down to a certain level to drop the current flow. If the new controller current limit is even lower, than the new controller will even drop the voltage below what it was before to keep the current at the limit. The higher voltage on the battery circuit side of the controller would only help reduce current flow from the batteries, and increase range.

Quote:

To further complicate matters, you need to make sure that your DC-DC converter will handle the extra voltage okay. Most are rated from 30V-60V.

The way to deal with this is to make sure that the DC-DC converter only taps off the original 4 batteries. Then, charge the extra added batteries separately from the originals. This should keep things in balance. For example, if you added 2 batteries, then get a 24v charger for the extra two.

zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Alright, so how do I modify the shunt? I'm not all that familiar with electrical controllers. I just wanna get to 30-35 and 25 up hills, so any help is greatly appreciated.

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jbird
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Here is a thread explaining how to modify the shunt in the controller using the old Emax scooter's brushless controller.

More E-max Controller Mods - Shunt Resistor Trick

Also, trying to swapping the motor on the XB-600 to the XM-2000 will not be easy. The motor is wider, has a disk brake instead of a drum brake, and will need the controller and shifting mechanisms from the XM-2000 to work. It is possible but will not be easy.

zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Thanks jbird,
I think all mods need to start with this controller shunt mod. Very handy info and an easy mod too. I'm tempted to do this today, but I might wait and mod the 72v controller so I have the original as backup. I'll probably go ahead and put 100a FETs and capacitors in too to be on the safe side. If I can get results similar to the pantera from this mod, I'll be happy. It seems he picked up about 10 mph from the shunt mod and 1 more battery going 60v. Imagine 72v though. :D WICKED!

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Ok, I couldn't wait. I ran out to radio shack and bought a 30 watt soldering iron and jerked the 48v controller out of my xb 600. I cut a piece of coat hanger 1 1/2 inches long, drilled 2 holes in my controller board, soldered it, and was rewarded greatly. This controller shunt mod is brilliant. Kudos to whoever discovered this. I can now go 20 mph up hills!! That's an 8- 10 mph increase from what it was before!!! I also do about 22 mph on the flats now. All it took was a piece of coat hanger, are you kidding me. This is the best free mod for the xb 600 for sure! If someone could show me which FET traces to solder, I would put the 5th battery on right now and shoot for 30 mph :D. This is great. Oh, acceleration is much quicker too. I can get to 22mph in seconds. I think with one more battery, I can eclipse the performance the 50cc gas scooters have to offer. AWESOME!!

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andrew
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Re: Extreme XB-600

zerogas, that's a huge boost in performance. Is the controller getting hot, or burning? Can you take some pictures? I'm not too surprised that the controller was the bottleneck, but that's a lot more than I thought.

Just go easy on the motor at first and feel the motor at 2 minute intervals on a long ride. The motor may gradually get very hot, so don't expect it to be fine if it is cool after a few minutes of riding. It is difficult to know at which point the motor is reaching its critical temperature from the outer casing temperature, but at least you can compare to how it felt before. Once it gets very hot to the touch, than it may be approaching or at its designed safe operating temperature.

If there's some way you can get a temperature reading of the windings themselves than that would give a much better indication. The winding insulation will break down when the temperature gets too high and the motor will fry, so that is the critical point.

zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Andrew,
I rode the scooter for hours after doing this mod (taking turns riding my daughter and her friend) and the motor never got anything more than warm. That's not to say the controller won't fry later, but I don't care if it does. It's a crappy controller anyhow. If it does fry I'll get one of the crystalyte 72v 40a models and keep on scooting. Like I said though, we rode for hours at full throttle and didn't have any hint of a problem. Works like a charm.

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gushar
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Hey, that sounds like a great improvement. I'll be interested though to know the longterm effects. Now, I've read the "shunt" mod before...with the other scooters. But to keep me from running all over here to find and read those again. Can someone just basically explain exactly what that is doing to give more power. I'm not one of the more electically savy people on here so I need to know what a "shunt" is to begin with and what it does.

Thanks,
Gus

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andrew
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Re: Extreme XB-600

A shunt is a calibrated resistor. The voltage drop measured across a shunt can be used to determine the current flowing. The controller may measure current from an internal shunt to base its set limit on.

The voltage drop (V) in relation to current flow (I) and resistance (R) is given by: V=IR

So, we want to alter the controller current limit. How do we do it? Because it may not be so easy to adjust the controller logic, then we can alter the controller measurement of current flow or fool the controller. This can be done by recalibrating the shunt. The above equation tells how to do that. If we want to make the controller measure half of the real current, then we must half the voltage drop. If the resistance is halved, than the voltage drop will be half.

In simpler terms, decreasing the resistance of the shunt will make the controller think there is less current flowing, and increase the real current limit. The resistance can easily be lowered by adding wire to the shunt, using thicker wire, a shorter piece of wire, or even adding any conductive metal available (like zerogas did with a piece of a coat hanger).

If it has been determined that a current limit is not really needed to protect the motor or controller and not desirable, than just lower the resistance of the shunt by a lot using any means available. A precise adjustment would not be needed in this case.

However, if a precise adjustment is needed, then first measure the resistance of the shunt. Send a current flow measured by a digital multi meter or measured somehow accurately through the shunt, and measure the voltage across the shunt. Then cut pieces of wire to the length of the shunt and measure their resistance by using the same method. Use the equation for resistors in parallel to determine how much the added wire will change the resistance of the shunt. The equation is given here: Wikipedia - Resistor. Another method is to add wire to the shunt, then grind it down until the resistance of the shunt is at the desired level.

The change in current limit will be the reciprocal of the change in resistance. So if the resistance is 1/2 of what it was originally, then the current limit will be 2/1 or double. If the resistance is 1/3, then the current limit will be 3 times, ect.

gushar
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Thanks Andrew for that very clear explanation. So as in the pic back on the EMax forum seems to show...Zerogas just soldered in the coat hanger wire from contact point to contact point where each "end" of the present "shunt" is soldered to the board...to create the same path with even less resistance by adding the coat hanger wire?

Gushar

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Gushar,
That is exactly what I did. I cut a 1 and 1/2 inch piece of coathanger. drilled a hole 2mm in diameter in each contact point beside the existing shunts. and soldered it in. It's not exact, but I'm not worried about this controller. If it booms there are better ones available to purchase (crystalyte). I'm just trying to see what I can do on the cheap to make this scooter faster. Today I'll be adding a 5th battery to try and increase top speed. This will give me 60v. The FETs in the controller are only rated for 63v, so I don't want to try 72v just yet. They would fry for sure. If I'm careful with the throttle at 60v I think it should be ok. If not I'll have to order the crystalyte controller :D

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Ok,
I'm stuck. i wired a 5th battery in the red wire coming from the battery pack, just before the fuse and when I turned on the scooter the voltage gauge showed in the red and the scooter would not run. I then tried wiring the battery between the fuse and controller, same thing. Does anyone know how to add another battery to the xb 600? I'd rather not have wires hanging out of the battery pack, but wiring under the seat to the hot wire isn't working. Should the 5th battery go to the controller's output wire? HELP!!!

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

I couldn't wait, I wired the 5th battery in series with the pack and it worked!! I now have a 28mph scooter!! HAHAHAHAHA!! 28mph on flats and 25mph on hills. Now my xb 600 owns at 60 volts. :D I'll now have to ride for an hour or so and monitor the motor and controller. So far with 30 minutes of test riding the motor is still only warm. Perhaps later in the summer I'll rewire the scooter and get a good controller do a 72v version, but for now, I'm happy with just shy of 30 mph performance from a $740 scooter, a piece of coat hanger, and a $30 12v/12ah battery :) Oh, yeah. To do this I took the top of the battery pack and cut the black wire coming from the negative of the last battery. I then extended both these wires up through the seat pan through (2) 1/4" holes. Then I put a snap connect on each wire( 1 male and one female so I can disconnect the 5th battery and plug them together when charging). Then I put the corresponding snap connects on 2 more wires and ran them to the 5th battery which sits under the seat perfectly. I have a 2 amp trickle charger to charge the 5th battery and I unplug the snap connects and plug the extending wires from the pack into each other to charge the pack with the 48v charger that came with the scooter. I hope this answers some questions about the abilities of these chinese brushless hub motors and controllers. It seems if there is any weak link in these scooters it will be the controller, because the motor still doesn't get hot. I can hold my hand on it with no problem. Now, go "juice" your scooters!!!!!!!!!!!

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jbird
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Re: Extreme XB-600

The following is a precaution that you probably should take to protect the XB-600 from damage. First, you should either let the batteries rest for a while or turn on the scooter at 48V and cut the headlights on high for several seconds then power down before installing the fifth battery. This will dissipate or remove some surface charge thereby reducing total system voltage (drops to usually between 65 and 66V afterwards.) This will help you avoid trouble like going above the high voltage cut-off of the controller (if it exists it may cause you some delay waiting for voltage to drop off some), overstressing the DC-DC converter (max rating probably 60V), or risk blowing capacitors in the controller (usually rated up to 63V.) Once you ride a little ways the voltage will drop and you will be in the "safe" range. I used a Vector/Black&Decker 12V 2/4/6A charger for the spare battery. There is 12V 2/1A version of the charger that is too slow with questionable reliability that I would not recommend using.

zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Well, all is well so far. I'm recharging now. I must say, the extra speed does zap the batteries faster. LOL. I still will have plenty of range for my 6 mile trek to work, so all is good here in 28 mph xb 600 land :) I'll link some videos on youtube when I get charged up and it stops raining.

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gushar
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Congratulations on the mod. Could you also post some pics on here? Or even better could you start a thread for these mods and post the pics and repost the descriptions of what you did there? I know that may seem like asking alot but usually the folks who do these type mods and report them here are kind enough to do that for those of us who might want to do the same...cause you know that's alot of what this forum is all about...helping each other out when one person succeeds in making such a modification work.

Gushar

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Gushar,
As soon as I get some more batteries for my camera and it stops raining here I will get some pics up. This was very easy to do. For the controller shunt mod you can see pics at the link above. It works the same way even though the shunts on the xb 600 controller are in the middle of the pcb. It takes about 30 minutes to do it. Soon I'll post pics of the battery wire routing etc.. for adding the 5th battery. Again, this is about another 30 minutes of work, so in 1-2 hours tops you can easily add 8- 10 mph to your xb 600. I would definitely recommend the shunt mod for better hill climbing ability even if you don't want to do the 60v mod like I did. Also, I want to test it a few more days so I can post some stats on range, speed with a full charge (my batteries were low when I did the 60v mod and still got to 28 mph :D). The main reason I want to wait to post pics and instructions is so I can make sure the scooter can take it before other people do it and burn up their scooters.

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gushar
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Thanks Zerogas. Yeah, I understand. I'm really interested to see what happens on the longterm as well. Like I've said recently on here, I'm basically satisfied with the xb600 as it is. However, I wouldn't mind having some better hill climbing. Also, a bit more speed on the flats would be nice too. Of course what you've reported is really a vast difference in performance. I can't imagine being able to go 25mph uphill or 28-29mph on the flats! That's about a 10mph difference for both and that's a huge difference when you're at those speeds. I've looked at the "shunt" mod several times on the other post. I guess I'm just trying to imagine exactly where the new shunt gets soldered and why you have to drill holes in the board. Is that to run the ends up through to solder on the other side?? Are those points at the same place, or directly beside where the existing shunt is soldered? Anyway, I appreciate your willing to take the risk here with this and that you've shared this info thus far with other xb600 owners. I wish we knew the exact maximum safe voltage range for the motor, controller and dc-dc converter, as well as max amps. Wonder if xtreme knows this??? and would share it? I'm beginning to wonder if in fact the speed, etc. was limited not because the components couldn't deliver it without failing/burning out...but rather to meet the federal e-bike definition in the US???

Thanks again and I'll look forward to seeing just how you did things.

Gushar

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Sorry Gus,
I should have been more clear on the shunt mod. You have to drill (2) 2mm holes so you can solder the tips of the coat hanger on the other side. There isn't alot of room on the pcb to do it, so I drilled my holes directly beside the existing shunts ends. This mod alone will give you 20 mph up hills. It's easier to do than you might think, and it works like a charm. I would do this mod no matter what. When my 72v controller comes in I plan to do the shunt mod on it also. Look out! My xb 600 is gonna hit the 40's !!! I'm looking into a 2000 watt motor for a 72v mod, so stay tuned. Gas can kiss my ass! LOL

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gushar
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Thanks Zerogas for the clarification. I'm thinking as well it was critical on the other shunt mod post about the size (diameter) of the coat hanger wire...realizing this or that coat hanger may be different in diameter??? Have to read that other post again.

What did you think about the one post talking about the max voltage of the dc-dc converter...and bleeding off some voltage with the headlight? Seems if that's a problem it would be better to try and find a converter that will take higher voltages.

Can't wait to see a video of your xb600 tooling along at warp speed! :-)

Gushar

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Re: Extreme XB-600

Oh, thought of something else I was curious about. I haven't even opened up the battery box on mine so I don't even know what size wires they use in the battery string and into and out of it??? I know on my previous small cheapy scoots 24v, 36v, it was pretty small wire. And how do they have the battery connections made? Again on those small scoots I had there were spade connectors. And btw, when you wrote "snap connectors" do you mean those that just "clip and cut into" the wire and you can add another wire or join two wires with them? Cause that's what I know as "snap connectors." But they're not made to continuously be opened and closed????

And I'm thinking as well why not just get a suitable replacement charger for a 60 volt bat pack rather than charging separately. Sorry for all the questions...just got me curious about those connectors, etc.

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Re: Extreme XB-600

Gushar,

Take it from someone who has done the 60V upgrade from 48V for a long time on a similar scooter and experienced a burned out DC-DC converter as well as blown capacitors in the controller. Bleeding off some of the extra voltage before connecting the fifth battery takes only a few seconds and will likely save you money on replacement parts/gas to return to an ICE and time disassembling and reassembling the scooter. Also finding a DC-DC converter that will handle the extra voltage is not easy. Most solutions are pretty expensive (~$200) or will need to be custom made yourself (will need to output 10 amps.) If you are planning on trying to use a 60V charger instead of a 48V and a 12V charger, you will expose the electrical components of the scooter with up to 75V which is a bad idea as this is over the max voltage for the capacitors and DC-DC converter as well as equal to the max voltage that the FETs will handle (usually 75V for a 48V scooter's controller.) You should consider getting a spare DC-DC converter and/or controller just in case. Alternatively, you could just upgrade the capacitors and FETs in the controller first for a long-term solution.

andrew
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Re: Extreme XB-600

It would also be advisable to find out where the DC-DC converter taps off the pack. Then, run those wires to the original 48v section of the pack (I know this is not possible with the way zerogas did the wiring). If doing this, you must charge the extra battery separately so it remains in balance. This will save the DC-DC converter, and this is the way EVT owners did 60v mods with the EVT scooters.

zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Hi again,
Gus, by snap connectors I'm referring to the spade type that have a male and a female which can be plugged into each other. I used these on the wires from the 5th battery and from the battery pack for quick disconnects and to plug the 48v pack back together for charging. I charge the 5th battery separately with a $28 shumacker charger from Wal-Mart. My previous post of 28mph was wrong. Apparently my 5th battery was almost dead when I bought it. With a full charge I'm getting 30 mph and 27- 28 mph on hills. As for the dc converter, If it fries I'll get a better converter or run the 12v system off of the 5th battery (crude way of getting 12v with no converter LOL). You definitely need to open your battery pack.... I found 2 of the cables in the pack were loose, so I tightened them up while I was in there. As for the gauge of the wire in the pack, it seems to be 10ga. wire. It's pretty small stuff. When I do the 72v conversion ( with a 72v controller and better dc- dc converter of course) I'll rewire the whole scooter, including the battery cables. All the wires seem to be undersized on these scooters. If all goes well to work and back tomorrow on my xb 600, I'll get some pics up on here. I keep forgetting to buy batteries for my camera!! LOL Oh, also, I wouldn't worry too much about the diameter of the coat hanger for the shunt mod. Anything has to be better than what's in the controller already. If you encounter any hills.. at all... ever... you should really start your mods with the shunt mod just for better hill climbing ability. Good Luck and happy Modding!

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zerogas
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Re: Extreme XB-600

Found a decent dc- dc converter 72v to 12v for under $150. A little pricey, but more digging may result in a better deal. http://www.powerstream.com/dc-dc.htm

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Points: 360
Re: Extreme XB-600

Wow...that is so much more speed...and getting almost as much speed on hills as on flats! Thanks again for the additional info. Also wondered if getting the original batt to match the others might help hold the range a bit since it is 20ah if I recall correctly??? But man I am really impressed with what these mods have done. I do want to wait a bit since you've become the "test" for these mods...and see if anything happens with the motor/controller in the next couple of months. Hopefully both are capable of the voltage/amp increase with no real degradation to the components.

Keep us posted and I'll sure be looking for those pics on here!

Gushar

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Gus

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