Just installed the 60 volt mod from Electric Motorsport on my EVT 4000e. No magic smoke escaped, Woo-Hoo!
Best. Upgrade. Ever.
I only had time for a short test ride, and the forecast calls for rain tomorrow, so I won't have any objective GPS data until Sunday. Scooter speedo showed 42 MPH at top speed. Better acceleration -- Economy mode is now peppier than 48 volt Power mode. Better hill climbing. I hardly notice the extra battery weight when riding. I am a VERY happy camper.
I installed the 60 volt mod this afternoon without removing the body plastics. Easier than installing PowerCheqs. Now the bike performs like I always expected it to. I should be able to keep up with my wife's Honda Metropolitan now. I did 10 miles of fast take off, full power, stop and go riding and it was still on the top green LED when I got home. That should mean I've got a good bit more range with that extra EB-50.
I'll post more when I get a chance to gather some good numbers with the GPS.
I have to get 60 volts into my RazorPR200, lol she should be a rocket then!
good job, glad to hear the magig electric smoke genie that steals your hard earned money stayed in the bike...lol
I hate it when he peaks his head out of my bikes, it allways costs me about $150 every time I rub that lamp!
could you post a vid on youtube?
good luck and be safe
I will shake my fist at the rain here tomorrow, lol good for my plants not good for me and my need to keep dry. ya dig? lol
Mike M
I just Re-laced my first spoked wheel! and it was trued by spinning it in my hand
How hot is the motor getting? *dreams of EVT Z20 on a 72v mod
---
Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here E.T.A. 1 mo
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri
Andrew,
the motor gets hot, but not alarmingly so. That said, it also got quite hot after a good ride at 48 volts. I pretty much max out the weight limit for the stock bike all by myself. With the extra EB-50 in there I'm sure it's now overweight. Probably wouldn't be so hot with a smaller rider. I don't have a good way to get accurate temperature measurements, but I touched the motor housing just after my ride yesterday and I could hold my finger there for a second or two, but probably would have got a blister if I kept it there much longer. That said, the temperature increase seemed pretty much proportional to the speed boost and more aggressive acceleration. I plan on going easy on long uphill stretches, but frankly I'm not too worried about increased heat or motor wear. Here's why:
Over on the 'EVT "asian" Controller' thread Patrick posted oscilloscope data for the EVT controller output. This showed that the US version of the EVT controller limits the voltage to the motor to average about 80% of the pack voltage. If the pack voltage is increased to 60 volts, then 80% is about 48 volts, exactly what the motor is rated for! That's why this mod works so well. When I picked up the 60 volt harness and battery, Patrick told me that they had done about a dozen of these mods to customer bikes and none had come back with problems. This also suggests that if you replaced the stock EVT controller with something carefully tuned and optimized you could get performance similar to the 60 volt mod with a 48 volt pack. The thing is the 60 volt mod is easier and cheaper than replacing the controller.
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Mike,
I could post a video, but it would look pretty much like me riding a stock EVT 4000e, only a little faster. I can't smoke the tires or anything dramatic. The most exciting part is being able to keep up with traffic. Although, when I took my test ride yesterday I came to a a light that turned yellow on me and I thought to myself 'if I gun it I can make it', and I actually made it through the light! Not possible with the stock bike ('gun it' on a stock EVT, yeah, right!). What exactly would you like to see on video?
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Just for kicks I added up all my expenses for the 60 volt mod. Grand total approximately $285 USD. Most of that was the wiring harness ($60) and EB-50 battery ($105) from Electric Motorsport (total invoice with sales tax $179.44) and the Soneil 1214S 7Amp charger from BateryStuff.com ($70.56 delivered). The rest is a tie down strap, miscellaneous wiring connectors, velcro, etc. It could be done a bit cheaper is you already have all needed 'stuff'.
Just for comparison purposes, last November I got a quote of $538 USD (delivered) for an ungoverned 'Asian' EVT controller from Ecodrive.com (EVT Canada).
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Pictures please ! And did you install both chargers on the bike ?
OK,
here's the numbers from the GPS for my test ride Sunday: Max speed: 36.8 (but this was downhill), total trip length 19.4 miles. Now the details: I rode full out, hard acceleration, full throttle for most of the ride. The true maximum speed on level ground seemed to be about 33-34MPH. The trip length included a 5-10 minute stop near the end to 'grow a charge' to make it home. So, I'd say that the real world numbers for this upgrade are 33MPH max speed, 16 miles range in real 35MPH street traffic with limited stops. That range number is really variable, though, depending on how many full stops and the actual traffic speed. Now that I can keep up with traffic I can see why real world range figures for EVs are so hard to quantify -- too many variables. I bet if I put a 150lb rider on my bike on a test track at a constant speed of 20MPH with no stops, the bike could easily do 30 miles or more. Since I'm a top weight rider, the acceleration from a stop really sucks Amps.
These numbers bear out my idea that even with 60 volts going to the controller, the motor only gets 80% of that, or 48 volts. I bet you'd see very similar performance numbers on an EVT with the 'Asian' version of the controller. Where is Lemmiwinks?
Jerome, I installed the new 12 volt Soneil charger inside the battery compartment, but there is no room for the stock Chroma charger. That is still off-board, but I have a trunk on the bike, so I can carry it with me as needed.
Now for some pictures of the 60 volt mod. Thanks to Patrick at Electric Motorsport for getting me access to an EVT 4000e with the body plastics removed for the pictures.
Here's the before AND after picture of the scooter, as it looks totally stock once the seat is closed.
Here's the stock 48 volt harness from the right rear of a bike with body panels removed. Notice the red Anderson connectors at the left of the image and the white locking Molex connector near the center. The red Andersons connect the 48 volt pack to the controller. Note: I installed the mod WITHOUT removing the body panels from my bike.
Here's the add-on harness as it will be installed between the existing Anderson connectors. The add-on harness does two things: it adds the output from a fifth battery in series to send 60 volts to the motor output circuitry of the stock EVT controller, and provides a tap from the 48 volt section of the pack to power the control and DC to DC conversion section of the EVT controller. The brown wire is the 48 volt tap. Note that in the picture there is an extra male/female bullet connector pair taped to the female bullet connector on the end of the brown wire. These extra connectors get crimped onto one existing wire to finish the install and make the mod reversible.
Here's the one wire that needs to be cut to connect to the 48 volt tap on the add-on harness. Sorry about the bad focus.
Here's a shot I took of the inside of another bike at Electric Motorsport with the storage box and batteries removed. This gives you a view of the stock wiring harness form the inside of the bike. The yellow arrow shows the red wire that needs to be tapped into for the mod.
This next shot shows the inside of my bike after I cut the red wire. You can also see the velcro strip I add on top of the rear battery to hold down the new charger.
Crimping on the bullet connectors from the inside of the bike is a bit tricky since the wire is so short. You have to have a crimp tool that crimps on the end, rather than near the handle. Also have to be careful not to damage any other wires in the harness. The female bullet connector is tricky, and is optional, but gives you the option to remove the add-on harness and reverse the mod. Here's the bullet connectors in place to connect to the 48 volt tap from the new harness.
Next I connected the extra battery to the add-on harness, and hooked up the harness as shown above. I connected the battery leads to the terminals before hooking up the new harness. I also connected the leads from the new charger to the battery at this point. I added a disconnect in the charger leads so that I can easily remove the charger. I put the tie-down strap for the new battery in place at this point. The strap goes under the existing metal rails that bolted to the storage box.
In order to maintain access to the inside of the bike to hook up the add-on harness, I set the battery on a storage cube next to the bike at about the same height as the top of the battery compartment. The battery leads were long enough so that I could connect the add-on harness with the battery outside the bike. I used two cable ties to bind the new Anderson connectors to the existing connector and mount. There's plenty of room in the body plastics to stack them like that. Then I put the Soneil 1214S charger in place, on top of the rear battery. Lastly, I placed the new battery in the compartment and cinched the tie down strap. Here's the completed set up:
Once I collected all the tools and supplies I needed, the total time spent to install this mod was about 4 hours. It would probably only take me 2 hours to do it again. Although this mod is removable, it makes the bike so much more usable, I doubt if I'll ever want to go back to stock.
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Craig Uyeda == Deafscooter is Here...
I read your modified the EVT 4000 Scooter with 60 Volts
and stilll problem on your HUB Motor will burn out brush!!!
there only 42 Mph top on 60 Volts total batteries powered?
deafscooter
Craig,
brush wear should not be a problem. Patrick posted oscilloscope results for the US version of the EVT controller that show only about 80% of pack voltage reaches the motor. 80% of 60 volts is about 48 volts, which is in spec for the EVT motor. This also explains why a 60 volt pack with a US controller yields about the same performance as the ungoverned 'Asian' EVT controller. Yes, the top speed on level ground was only about 34MPH, again comparable to the 'Asian' controller. The advantages of the 60 volt mod are: it's easy to install, and half the price of an ungoverned controller. Electric Motorsport has set up over a dozen EVT scooters with 60 volt packs with no reported problems. So far I'm a happy camper ; )
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Crusher300,
If you have some exposed motor wiring, can you take a voltage measurement while riding at top speed? Lemmiwinks said his scooter toped out a little bit slower at ~31 mph after the Asian controller mod.
---
Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here E.T.A. 1 mo
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri
Andrew,
I'll have to check and see if I can access the controller output wiring to the motor, and if so, how I could rig up a multi-meter so I could read it safely while riding at top speed. Seems like there's a reason why most of this type of measurement are made in the garage ; )
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Crusher;
Thanks for the kind words, and nice job on the photos! I hope that explains it to everyone.
I was a little disappointed to see only 34 mph. I've never tested with a GPS, just guestimating the true speed. If at all possible, could you try the same thing with a very light rider? I'd love to see if there is a difference. I ran my Lepton at 60 volts, and all it did was go slower due to the extra weight.
Two ways you can measure motor voltage. Intercept it at the black Andersons (below the red ones) is one way (grey will also mate with black), or use insulation piercing probes. A peak reading (min/max) meter will save you from looking at all if you've got one. I can do it in the shop, but it might be a while as we repaired and returned that torn down 4000. The next one that comes in, I'll give it a try - I'd like to see voltage vs. current on a flat road. I wish there was an electronic tap for the speed; photo tachs don't cut it on the road.
Remember to watch the motor temp., especially on hills. Not only the brushes, but the winding epoxy can burn/melt too (as I know from personal experience). Harbor Freight has an IR thermometer for $7 - $10 that's probably OK - I'm going to try one. May not be super accurate, but fine for comparative measurements.
Patrick
Patrick
Hi Patrick
How did manage to power 60 volt to scooter without doing any damage ? , and was 60 V going directly to the motor ( measured at the terminal , not connectors )?
I also have a Lepton-e , and somewhat suprise to find that we have a brushe type motor ,had assumed that we had a brushless motor.
You appear to be very familar with the scooter , how long have you had it ?. did you make or get a wiring diagram showing controler , motor , batteries connection etc .if so could you make available .
Have been unable to get any technical assistance from the factory , have you had any luck with them ?
Have some Nickel-Zinc pack that I been running for the past months , had very good result as far as charge , and discharge goes with new
BMS on the cells .
What power pack are you running your scooter with ? have you keep track of performance and cycle life ?
Do you have any idea how many Lepton-e been sold in the USA ?
Regards
Andre
HEAT & LOSS & INEFFICIENCY RELATED DIRECTLY to IMPEDANCE
Hi Andre:
(FYI - this post is all about the Lepton, not the EVT - if anybody wants more info, let's start a new thread)
For the 60 volts, I just stuck an extra EB-50 under the seat and wired it in series. I knew the controller could take it, as "Error 1" indicates over 70 volts. While the bike ran fine, (albeit slowly) it did hit the Error 1 everytime I used regen while going fast. No other problems were noticed.
This was wired to the controller, not the motor. The motor is brushless, not brushed. IMO, the Lepton has the most elegant controller of any small EV - wish they weren't so slow. I've got a few, and have been working on them about a year. I know them quite well, and would be happy to give tech support if anyone is interested. I don't get any info from the factory; they are end-of-life. I would guess 500 to a thousand sold in US. I have no wiring diagrams per se, but I know what most of the wires do, and the logic of the wiring.
I run both B&B Eb-50s (that's the normal 20 hour rating) and Hawker EP-42s (that's a 10 hour rating). I don't really measure cycle life, etc - I am just fanatic about battery care, and get new batts when the range hits about half (about 3000 - 4000 miles). Also careful not to discharge them more than about 50% (except rarely).
The Evercells can be excellent. They are lighter and make the bike accelerate better, but not as good at high current draw (500 foot elevation gain). I've only dealt with all the leftovers in the shop. But my experience with them has been up and down. In fact, I think I blew up a pack recently - but they don't fit my application for the money. I've toyed with the idea of a Lithium pack (will test one soon) - but don't think I'll buy one. Why drop all the $$$ when the 30 mile range fits 95% of my need? The other 5% is just for fun anyway.
Best,
Patrick
Patrick
Took the newly modified EVT 4000e to the EAA meeting this morning. I was a bit concerned as it's a 14 mile trip one way. I did some back-of-the-envelope math and figured I could probably make it there and back if I recharged during the meeting. Well, the bike performed like a champ! I mostly used Economy mode which gets me up to 30MPH now. I saved Power mode for accelerating through intersections and uphill grades. I could have gone another couple of miles in either direction without problems. I think the batteries performed better on the way back, after warming up for a couple of hours on the charger. The temp was about 55 F today, and I expect to see even better performance in summer. I'd say the comfortable range for the bike is 16 miles, which you could push to 20 or more with careful driving, perhaps more in summer.
At the meeting I got the suggestion to try a tuck position to reduce drag and get a bit more speed. By golly, it worked! On the way back I pulled everything in as much as possible and hit 35MPH on a long flat stretch. Patrick, I bet a smaller, lighter, more aerodynamic rider could get it up close to 38MPH.
One of the old-timers there told me that he had a regular ICE moped and he was able to add 10MPH to the top end by installing a windscreen mounted at a 45 degree angle. Has anyone out there tried this with an electric scooter?
Regarding the motor temp, I've been checking it after each ride. It's somewhat hotter than with the 48 volt pack, but not enough for me to be concerned. The cool spring weather may be helping out, so I'll keep checking it, especially later in summer. I'll check out that IR thermometer at Harbor Freight. For comparison, the motor gets about as hot as the hottest spot on the Soneil charger.
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
This is direct from the manufacturers website:
http://www.evt.com.tw/html/product_evt/english/index.htm
1. Over-heat Protection :
When the temperature reaches to the limit, the system shall supply only half power, or cut off the power .
Whether this means there is a temp sensor in the motor itself, or only in the controller, is not clear.
Amanda
What a great modification!!!!!
Thank you for sharing how it's made. Thank you Crusher. Thank you Electric Motorsport.
I put it together yesterday. It took me 2 hours but I have not yet connected any Powercheqs and the additional charger is temporarily connected.
It was not to difficult to find the correct wire to cut, but I'm adding a picture of how it looks on my bike. (It's the red one in the middle.)
After I cut the wire I measured which end that was currently feed with + 48 V,
that's the wire that we do not need any more. The other one is were you need to
crimp the connector for the new + 48 V feed.
This how the the connectors and the additional cables for PowerCheq and Charger looks.
I love the extra speed I get and I'm not ever going to convert back.
Take care
Magnus
Stockholm, Sweden
`mbqmbq,
Welcome to our V is for Voltage Community, great pictures, thanks for sharing.
Stleride
Moderator Team Captain
Moderators are dedicated volunteer V Team members who help keep your V Forums running smoothly and provide Forum Support.
`
Stleride
Moderator Team Captain
Moderators are members of our very dedicated community volunteer <a href="http://visforvoltage.net/page/106-our-community-volunteers">V Team</a> who help keep our <a href="http://visforvoltage.net/page/251-poli
Magnus,
Glad you found this post helpful! Regarding the PowerCheqs, you don't need one for the extra battery since it's charged separately from the rest of the pack. On my EVT 4000e I have three PowerCheqs wired to the original four batteries of the original 48 volt pack. Since the extra battery is not used for lights and controls, it will never be discharged as much as the other four, hence no need for a fourth PowerCheq for charging OR discharging. That's the thing I like about this mod: it's simple. Extra battery, new wiring harness, charger and that's all.
By the way, I should be at the EAA rally in Palo Alto on the 25th with my scooter. Last year a few of the 'V is for Voltage Forum' folks showed up and touched base. Anyone else planning on being there?
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
The fourth Powercheq could help to share the load of the DC-DC converter.
I may not be much help but I hope it will get me some additional miles ;-)
If the PowerCheqs could give more than 2 amps (according to spec)
the DC-DC converter would not be needed. Just hook up one battery
and it will be fed from the others.
/Magnus
mbqmbq,
I thought the same as you so I contacted the PowerCheq folks and they advised me against doing this. They said it could cause more battery problems rather than helping. I would recommend using a DC to DC converter as they suggested to me. Here is a data sheet and wiring diagram for a very good DC to DC converter.
Lucent JW030C1-M DC-DC Power Module Data Sheet (36vdc to 75vdc input @ 30-watts)
Wiring Diagram - JW030C1-M DC-DC Power Module
Chas S.
My Bicycle Pages
The headlight is 35 W so a 30 W DC/DC is not enough. Let's say it's 60 W and that would result in a current of 5 A. The PowerCheqs would need to be rated at 7 A to be able to handle the DC/DC and handle the battery "equalization". The business case for this type of PowerCheq would be based on replacing the DC/DC (less heat consumption/better efficency) and battery equalizer. It would of course be a more expensive device.
/Magnus
PS I'm adding one more picture. The female connector looks so ugly so I didn't feel like showing it here, but I think it can be useful for others to see how the wire is cut. (It was not only the red shrink tubing that shrunk. The blue part of the connector did so too. This female connector is only used when converting back to 48 V)
Just want to point out several errors in this posting and elsewhere in the thread.
The controller is a pulse width modulated controller. It does not decrease voltage, it just
turns the voltage on and off rapidly. That decreases POWER.
That means with a 60volt battery, 60 volt pulses are reaching the motor (and brushes). Because the US
controller maximum pulse length is 80% on time, one might think that the total POWER (volts x amps x time on) reaching the motor
with 60volts would be the same as with the asian controller and 48v. But you'd be wrong.
If the motor resistance (or back EMF) is constant (probably isn't, but close), 60 volts is 20% higher
voltage and 20% higher current, which is 44% higher power. The 80% duty cycle of the US controller reduces
the actual power increase to 15% (over an asian 100% controller with 48v battery).
The motor may or may not overheat with 15% more power than the asian version.
The brushes may be just fine with 60 volts, I don't know. I'm not saying
either will fail, just that both are increased.
Adrian Nye
Austin, TX
Actually it does decrease the voltage because it has a lot of capacitors and a freewheeling diode to allow the current to flow during the off part of the cycle. It functions like a variable DC-DC converter.
However, as you mention the % of on does not have a relationship to voltage, but power.
I will try to figure out whats going on by going back to basics. Who said the American controller only goes a max of 80% on time and how did they establish that? If that is correct than:
Lets say you took the controller out, and put in a switch. If you switch it on while running 48v than 1p power will flow. Because of the relationship of V = IR the maximum power that can flow is a function of the square of the change in voltage. 60v/48v = 1.25 * 1.25 = 1.56p will now flow on 60v.
The maximum power that will flow at 80% on time at 60v is 1.56 times higher than the maximum power that will flow at 80% on time at 48v.
Now if you go back to 48v and the switch and decide to leave the switch on for 80% of the time, than you will get 80% of the max power on 48v or .8p. But if you leave it on for 100% of the time you are increasing the power by 25% of what it was when you had the switch on for 80% of the time because 100/80 = 1.25.
This means that the Asian controller should increase the power by 25%, while the 60v mod to the American controller should increase the power by 56%. And the 60v mod to the American controller should offer about a 25% increase in power (1.56/1.25) vs. the Asian controller on 48v.
---
Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
My KZ750 Project: here
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri
` andrew,
Sorry for this off topic post, can you chime in on Has anyone modified a China Brushless Hub Motor Controller to increase performance?
Peace Out,
Gman
What is your vision for the future our growing community?
Peace Out, <img src="http://tinyurl.com/ysafbn">
Gman
I got a question regarding the charger and if it's still room to use the PowerCheqs.
I'm adding another picture to shows the Ctek charger and the PowerCheqs.
(http://www.ctek.com/)
/Magnus
Hi
A question for Crusher - hope you read this!
Just wondering if you could give us an update on your 60v EVT?
I'm interested to hear if its still performing well after six months or so...
Thanks!
Hey dermutt,
the mod itself still works like champ. The bike has a couple of other problems at the moment - the Soneil 1214 charger for the fifth battery expired about a week ago, and I'm having problems with the rear wheel bearing (squeak, squeak, squeak). I just got a replacement charger today, so that problem should be solved this weekend. Then I need to take off the rear wheel and pull the motor apart to get to the bearing.
Overall I've been quite pleased with the mod. It allows me to keep up with traffic on streets with a 35MPH posted limit. I have a client nearby and I ride the 4000e over there whenever possible. I noticed that Patrick had predicted that I might get increased range with the 60 volt mod, but I don't see any difference. The speed boost alone was totally worth the cost of the mod (harness, battery and charger).
The only complaints I have with the 4000e are:
* It's heavy - what can you do, it's filled with lead ;-)
* It does NOT like hills - No problem, I plan my routes accordingly
* Throttle lag in economy mode - use power mode when you need faster response
I still get that big EV grin, though!
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Just wondering, Is there any way to do this MOD to my EVT 168 equinox? I have no room at all under the seat for another battery. I do have a rear lockbox.
Has anyone tried to do this to a 168? If so please do tell how you got on.
Thanks
XM-3000 BB Batteries using 5 vector smart chargers in bike
EVT 168 4 UB12500 batteries using 4 vector smart chargers
lone_rider,
before I did the mod to my EVT 4000e I test rode a 60 volt EVT 168 that Todd at Electric Motorsport had modified. You can do it, but since there is not as much space under the seat of the 168 you have to make a compromise. Your choices are:
1. Use five smaller batteries so that they all fit, which could decrease your range, or
2. Use a smaller fifth battery which gets drained to a greater DoD and will need replacement more frequently than the rest of the pack.
I believe the scooter I test drove used option #2. Contact Todd at Electric Motorsport and he fill you in on your options.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/new/ems_contact.php
-Crusher300
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
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