Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in "Cloud Cuckoo Land", where ever that is?

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redlaneham
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Has it ever occurred to anyone that to give electric vehicles unlimited mileage it should be possible to refuel at a service station? My suggestion is that all batteries are standardised throughout the country; nobody owns their own battery you just rent it; when the charge is low you pull into a service station, unclip the battery pack, attach a fully charged pack, pay for the refill and away you go! Petrol stations across the country make money, and the electric car has unlimited range.

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MikeB
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

That is the exact business model proposed by http://www.betterplace.com/

It's got some big hurdles: Standardized batteries won't fit both a large truck and a small motorcycle, not to mention all the different shapes & sizes for cars in the middle. Swapping batteries means that you might get one that's old and has reduced capacity, and you won't know it. And the financial model has some big risks, since you either build big or the plan has no value.

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redlaneham
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Thanks for that and I'm glad somebody is at least considering how it might work and doing something. I agree there are hurdles but as battery technology advances these problems will diminish. As far Trucks and bikes go - there is no problem in having different sizes as long as they are standardised in their category. The problem I see is getting all manufacturers to use the same battery and making it easy to change.

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redlaneham
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

There must be a way of metering the charge in a battery so you only pay for the charge that registers.

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Your thought process is hardly original! Battery swapping became a popular theory in 'popular science' type mags in the mid 1950's.

In fact the ill-conceived Better Place concept, drew its inspiration from these sources. The obvious technical and logistical impossibilities of such an enterprise require only a few moments of consideration. As for standardisation of batteries, that's as absurd as all socialist economic reasoning. Why not only one brand of car? A Trabant!

The Better Place business model is unworkable, and recent battery and other energy storage technologies have already made such nonsense obsolete.

How would a service station make money? A huge amount of expensive real estate, with a very small fast charging outlet? ICE service stations are already constricting in number, eventually they will disappear altogether.

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redlaneham
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Sorry if I'm not original with my thoughts but your response is poppycock (or in Dutch PappyCack)! Is petrol a standardised fuel therefore a socialist conspiracy? if the idea is so bad why are Denmark and Australia going for the battery change stations in such a big way?

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redlaneham
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Sorry if I'm not original with my thoughts but your response is poppycock (or in Dutch PappyCack)! Is petrol a standardised fuel therefore a socialist conspiracy? if the idea is so bad why are Denmark and Australia going for the battery change stations in such a big way?

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

redlaneham wrote:

Sorry if I'm not original with my thoughts but your response is poppycock (or in Dutch PappyCack)! Is petrol a standardised fuel therefore a socialist conspiracy? if the idea is so bad why are Denmark and Australia going for the battery change stations in such a big way?

Petrol is not standardised in the way you mean since there are several different brands and octane. Electricity is standardised, but batteries are under constantly changing technologies, components and development. Each EV brand will choose different and competing battery technology. That's the problem with battery swapping, it's an attempt to solve a battery range problem that is rapidly becoming irrelevant.

Oh, and Australia is not going for Better Place in a 'big way'. In fact, apart from some initial interest in the ACT, (a small area with less than 200,000 population), 'Better Place' does no business in Australia. Australia is one of only 4 nations with a local production EV for sale. Neither Blade Vehicles nor Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi have shown any interest in Better Place Australia. Better Place claims of Australian government support, are completely false. No battery swapping stations have, or ever will be, created.

The only place battery swapping seems to have gained any degree of support is Israel. But even in Israel, the Better Place has no infrastructure in place.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Unlimited range is not the problem one needs to solve. Rather, the problem to solve is education and communication (along with a spectacular marketing effort). Solutions already exist that fit most driving patterns.

One size does not fit all (and I mean the size of the vehicle not the size of the battery!)

A friend of mine (and a customer - here's looking at you T!) says "Diesel for Distance, and 'lectric for local". I look forward to the day when algae based bio-diesel is viable and common place and the personal transportation breakdown looks like this:

1) High urban densities using public transport most of the time and small EV's some of the time (consider the Zip Car motto "wheels when you need them")
2) Suburbanites using EV's most of the time and diesels for distance
3) Semi-rural using plug-in hybrids (with a diesel generator)
4) Rural and other high-mileage NEEDS using bio-diesel (no need for the added complexity of a plug-in if you almost always go over the plug-in range).

Wasting time and money on schemes like Project Better Place and battery swapping will just delay "cleaning up the personal transportation fleet". IMO, there will never be a completely electric fleet. However, we can turn the tables and make 90% of (personal transportation) miles driven use electricity or at least a clean and sustainable ICE fuel.

Just my 2 cents worth (and it's always fun watching marcopolo's soft and fuzzy approach ;-) )

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reikiman
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Actually - the "infinite range" of the beginning of this thread is an illusion. It's not infinite range, it's finite range but with the illusion of infinity created by a fast recharge of some kind. Likewise the current gasoline driven system has the same illusion of infinite range, which I think is why people are leery of EV's because they don't see how EV's can satisfy expectation of infinite range even though its illusory.

There's a discussion ensuing on one of the LinkedIn groups I'm in where an "inventor" in Canada claims to have come up with some new physics having to do with the dual characteristics of electric generators/motors and claiming to be able to offer real infinite range (for some definition of "infinite" that accommodates the limited life-span of physical materials).

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

David - point taken regarding "unlimited" or "infinite" range. However, I think what we're really talking about is the ability to refill in a "reasonable time". Where "reasonable" probably means somewhere in the < 15 minute range (to get closer to the liquid refueling model)

I think the whole notion of ability to quickly refill an EV by battery swap or by significant fast charge is the wrong problem to solve. By significant fast charge I mean tens of kilowatts of power being transferred at a time - i.e. recharging a 20 kWh car pack in 15 minutes requires a transformer that can output 80kW, right? That's a beast!

I do see the benefit of an infrastructure of charging stations with a moderate charge (say up to 4kW or 5kW) are useful. By comparison a US domestic outlet is rated up to around 1.5kW. A 5kW charger would fill our C130 in just over an hour or so. That's a somewhat reasonable "errand stop". Even a 15 minute charge would give around 10 extra miles of range. This seems appropriate to "top off" when I run out at lunchtime.

However, let's just concentrate on getting the right tool for the job. Limited range vehicles are just fine for the majority of users - we've got scads of data that supports this. Which is why I hope to see my above "segmentation" and shift happen in my lifetime (I plan on living another 58 years ;-) ).

If he's not a con-man then I wish nothing but good luck to that Canadian inventor. You've got to love the human spirit, eh?

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MikeB
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

I think the whole notion of ability to quickly refill an EV by battery swap or by significant fast charge is the wrong problem to solve. By significant fast charge I mean tens of kilowatts of power being transferred at a time - i.e. recharging a 20 kWh car pack in 15 minutes requires a transformer that can output 80kW, right? That's a beast!

Batteries capable of 20C charge/discharge rates are on the market now, though they use the more volatile LiPo chemistry. And a 10C charge rate means a 6 minute charge, 20C means 3 minutes. But yes, the size of the charger, and the copper wires needed to move that amount of juice, is just scary. It's not as bad for a big scooter as it is for a medium sized car, but still, youch!

I like the idea of bio-diesel for long trips, it's a relatively small gap between what's on the road today and a fully functional clean diesel fleet. (I currently own a VW diesel, but due to how the emissions system works it's not suitable for use with today's biodiesel fuels)

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

reikiman wrote:

an "inventor" in Canada claims to have come up with some new physics having to do with the dual characteristics of electric generators/motors and claiming to be able to offer real infinite range (for some definition of "infinite" that accommodates the limited life-span of physical materials)

What!! This swine has obviously stolen the plans to my brilliant 'Bio-onsonic ultraflux-capacitor, with dial-a-matic options and a free 'handy dandy' sponge sharpener! Zounds and Curses!Just when I was about to invite the heads of 'Big OIL' and OPEC to my secret underground laboratory/lair (equipped with the usual incredibly inept guards), for a bidding competition!

Oh well, back on planet earth. John, I too was once convinced of the value of Bio-diesel. But outside of maritime use the logistics simply aren't feasible. Of course, the bio-genetic R&D with Algae may prove me wrong,but not in the foreseeable future.(Maritime replacement fuel is the least lobbied, least researched source of pollution, and all but completely ignored by the environmental movement. Yet, shipping is the largest singe contributor to bio-spheric pollution! 1 container vessel can create as much pollution as 50 million cars!)

In contrast, energy storage systems in EV's are developing at an astonishing rate. Quick fill technologies, including liquid electrical fill systems, are already at an advanced stage of development. In the meantime, for those who can afford EV transport at its most expensive, several EV models are available with ranges of 500 klm to 1000, with 12 minute,80% charge times from 3 phase charging stations. (the US is disadvantaged with 110 volt basic power). In 10 years from now, the EV battery pack of today will, look as ancient and woeful as the mobile phone battery of 12 years ago.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

marcopolo wrote:

What!! This swine has obviously stolen the plans to my brilliant 'Bio-onsonic ultraflux-capacitor,

Yeah, well you stole it from me! So I had to resort to starting an EV company...

Quote:

Maritime replacement fuel is the least lobbied, least researched source of pollution, and all but completely ignored by the environmental movement. Yet, shipping is the largest singe contributor to bio-spheric pollution! 1 container vessel can create as much pollution as 50 million cars!

WOW! Where can I fact check this? That's an amazing statistic - how many thousands of container vessels are out there bringing us umbrellas all the way from China to be sold by street hawkers in NYC?

Quote:

In contrast, energy storage systems in EV's are developing at an astonishing rate. Quick fill technologies, including liquid electrical fill systems, are already at an advanced stage of development.

Can you provide a link for that liquid system? That sounds fascinating.

Quote:

In the meantime, for those who can afford EV transport at its most expensive, several EV models are available with ranges of 500 klm to 1000, with 12 minute,80% charge times from 3 phase charging stations.

Where are these 1000km (620 miles) capable EVs?
Where are the charging stations that can provide 80 to 100 kilowatts?
Who needs an EV with 1000km range who wouldn't be better served by a diesel?

Quote:

(the US is disadvantaged with 110 volt basic power).

Only if we're talking home charging. I think it will be a long time before the EU, US or any other country with building codes will be happy with a 3 phase solution in a residential setting. I'm in the US and I'm at a facility with a 480V 3 phase supply (so the availability of the juice isn't a problem).

(MikeB - I know the 10C & 20C batteries exist but it's the chargers that are the issue. I think we're in agreement on that.)

It's also not that I don't think that "reasonably safe" chargers are possible. By "reasonably safe" I mean about as safe as dispensing highly flammable liquids at a gas station.

It's that UNLIMITED RANGE OF A PURE EV ISN'T EVEN NECESSARY SO WHY WASTE MILLIONS OR BILLIONS TRYING TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM???

Ahh, I feel better now.

Quote:

In 10 years from now, the EV battery pack of today will, look as ancient and woeful as the mobile phone battery of 12 years ago.

I don't want to wait 10 years...

;-)

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MikeB
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

Can you provide a link for that liquid system? That sounds fascinating.

New liquid system coming out of MIT, nicknamed 'Cambridge Crude' (good search term):
http://web.mit.edu/press/2011/flow-batteries-0606.html
http://www.gizmag.com/semi-solid-flow-battery-design/18907/

If this technology actually reaches the market in something like the format described, it's the hangman's noose for conventional car engines. But it's years away, and will probably have some serious technical roadblocks before it's road worthy.

Oh, and marco is half-right about container ships, they are a massive source of pollution, but they aren't being ignored by environmentalists. They're just hard to control, since they operate mostly in international waters. I think they account for roughly 3% of all transportation emissions, and there's really not that many of them. The shipping company Maersk is doing a nice job of working on more energy efficient boats, with better pollution controls, but the incremental improvements are rather small and take a long time to have an effect.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

MikeB wrote:

New liquid system coming out of MIT, nicknamed 'Cambridge Crude' (good search term):
http://web.mit.edu/press/2011/flow-batteries-0606.html
http://www.gizmag.com/semi-solid-flow-battery-design/18907/

If this technology actually reaches the market in something like the format described, it's the hangman's noose for conventional car engines. But it's years away, and will probably have some serious technical roadblocks before it's road worthy.

Many thanks!

Quote:

Oh, and marco is half-right about container ships, they are a massive source of pollution, but they aren't being ignored by environmentalists. They're just hard to control, since they operate mostly in international waters. I think they account for roughly 3% of all transportation emissions, and there's really not that many of them. The shipping company Maersk is doing a nice job of working on more energy efficient boats, with better pollution controls, but the incremental improvements are rather small and take a long time to have an effect.

STOP PRESS: Is Marcopolo guilty of the sort of gross "over-hyping" of data that he decries in others? Inquiring Minds Want to Know!!! ( yes, this is shameless flame baiting!!!! (but we're all friends) )

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Hmmm.. so many questions! A big thank you to Mike B for providing the links on liquid fuel. I'm fairly spoilt in Australia as domestic power is all 240 volt, and connecting three phase is no problem.(Most ducted home air conditioning systems are three-phase.

On the subject of long range EV's, Mitsuoka Motor Co's, Himiko roadster, claims a 550 klm range, My LEVRR has a 350 klm range, Tesla roadster, around 440 klm. Several specialist makers claim even higher ranges for a price. While is not as simple as just adding more batteries, quite staggering range can be produced if cost is no problem.

Quote:

STOP PRESS: Is Marcopolo guilty of the sort of gross "over-hyping" of data that he decries in others? Inquiring Minds Want to Know!

Actually, if any thing, I'm understating the damage to the environment created by shipping! The world's merchant fleet is over 100,000 vessels. Thats only the vessels on the Lloyd's register.Many PRC vessels are not registered with Lloyd's. I have not included Naval vessels since they are mostly diesel powered and don't use bunker oil. Mike B, is also right in his praise for the modern and relatively sophisticated Danish merchant fleet of over 500 vessels. However, since this fleet spends over 95% of it time in foreign ports,(some vessels never even visit Denmark) the Danish Merchant marine could be said to only pollute others. Even the most sophisticated of merchant shipping is only marginally less pollutant.

WHO puts shipping at 4-5% of total world climate change emissions. Other scientific organisations double this estimate. 85% of all ship emissions occur in the Northern hemisphere, and are estimate to kill 60-100,000 people a year, with an illness rate of 200 times that number. The total cost to heath services is estimated at over 500 billion. The idea, that it doesn't matter since most of the pollution occurs at sea, is erroneous. 75% of all ship emission fine particles end up over land, and the rest enter the biosphere though ocean dynamics.

But airborne pollution, is not the only pollution created by shipping. A large coal shipping is probably many times more pollutant than it's cargo! Shipping pollution is a major problem. A large part, although not all, of the damage is due the use of Bunker oil.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Here's a few more questions - seeing as your answers weren't really answers:
How many Himiko's are on the road? That's the only car you mention that falls into your pool of "EVs available with 500km - 1000km" range.
How many people are actually charging at that 12 minutes? I'm not talking about "coming soon" or "it's possible". I'm talking about right now.

We know we can have limited range EV's now - take the Nissan Leaf for example. We also know that we can get a 220V/20Amp 7 hour charge (per Nissan site).

Do you know what amperage your 240V / 3 phase supply is rated at? I may have been completely off base with my assertion about 3 phase and residential availability. However, in the US it's common for a house to have a 220V single phase circuit capable of up to 40Amps. That's a lot of power (8.8kW) - but even at 8kW your talking a few hours to fill your car. It's rare in the US for a residential address to have three phase - if they did they'd probably have about 65 Amps of power - moving us up to 14.3kW and possibly charging your Leaf in one hour.

"Coming soon" we have the 480V J1772 proposal - Nissan says that will get you down to an 80% in 30-minutes fast charge. That is useful and achievable but we'd still be talking an investment of many billions of dollars to make them as relatively commonplace and plentiful as gas stations. By "as relatively commonplace" I mean that if we're aiming for, say, a 20% usage of EVs then we should replace 20% of gas pumps with fast charge stations. Right? How many gas pumps are within a 5 mile radius of where you sit right now? I'll bet it's a lot for any of us not in rural areas. And 20% of a lot is, well, a lot. I hope you get my drift.

So... I still say if your commute is less than 50 miles round trip then buy a reasonably priced EV (and rent a diesel car for longer trips). If you really must have long distance ability buy a PHEV (unfortunately I don't think there's a diesel PHEV on the market yet). If your round trip commute is 120 miles a day then move closer to work! (that's a joke - I know that's often not possible). However, if you're regularly doing 100+ miles per day then you're probably best served by an efficient diesel. Again, that's available today for a not too unreasonable premium.

So, I still say that EV's trying to mimic the existing "quick fill-up" model of gas or diesel motoring results in wasting time and resources.

Finally, The shipping info is very interesting thanks (and I hope you didn't take offense at my teasing?).

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MikeB
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

If you really must have long distance ability buy a PHEV (unfortunately I don't think there's a diesel PHEV on the market yet).

First and only one yet: Volvo V60 diesel PHEV, at least in Europe, in 2012: http://www.gizmag.com/volvo-v60-plug-in-diesel-hybrid/17940/

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2551 wrote:

How many Himiko's are on the road? That's the only car you mention that falls into your pool of "EVs available with 500km - 1000km" range. How many people are actually charging at that 12 minutes? I'm not talking about "coming soon" or "it's possible". We know we can have limited range EV's now - take the Nissan Leaf for example.

John, my original observation was to illustrate that the technology for relatively long distance EV travel exists. Like all new technologies, it begins expensively and rapidly becomes commonplace. The oft-quoted mobile telephone example is appropriate.

As I stated, at $200,000 Himiko,$230,000 LEVRR,$120,000 Tesla and $1,200,000 Rolls-Royce EV, will appeal to a limited number of buyers. My LEVRR, is a very expensive vehicle. By the time it arrives in Australia, it's costs over $330,000. Just as my first mobile phone cost $7000(calls were 55c for 30 seconds!). Today, Mobile's are cheaper than land-line phones.

My observations were intended to illustrate the futility of the Better Place Battery Swapping Concept. Designing an incredibly expensive (and unacceptably restrictive) solution to a problem that is rapidly ceasing to exist, is not a good business model! The spread of commercial EV's, ranging from light delivery, to trucks and even buses, means more charging stations. Cars (and scooters) will still be charged economically at home, slowly. Fast charging stations will provide a faster charge, but at a commercial price.

The rollout of fast charging stations will not be anywhere near as expensive as you believe. The cost of fast charging stations, has dropped 10 fold in the last 4 years will fall a lot further. Technology, like solid state li batteries, is constantly extending the range of EV's. In the meantime, buy a Volt!

Quote:

Do you know what amperage your 240V / 3 phase supply is rated at?

Australian Household Electricity is: 240 volts, 50 Hz, 10 amps max. The normal mains voltage in Australia is 240 volts, but this can vary between 216 and 254 volts depending on time and load conditions in the distribution system.The normal maximum current capacity is 10 Amps, but 10, 15, 20,40 Amp plug and socket combinations are available, when used with appropriately rated sub-circuits.The operating frequency is 50-60 Hertz.

The supply of 3 phase power is not so easily defined. Since in the earlier days 240 volt meant that lighter (and cheaper) wiring was wide spied. However, in general 3 phase power installation to domestic premises tends to be restricted to between 100 and 150 amps.(400-460 volts) In new, or commercial premises, 400 to 800 amps can be installed.

Quote:

So, I still say that EV's trying to mimic the existing "quick fill-up" model of gas or diesel motoring results in wasting time and resources.

And I still maintain that it is inevitable!

Quote:

Finally, The shipping info is very interesting thanks

Thank you, for listening. I have been campaigning for over 20 years to ban Bunker oil for maritime use. It's very hard to explain to ardent environmentalists that the ship bringing their solar panels, has creates more pollution than all the cargo of solar panels can save in thirty years! The incredible amount of environmental damage created by shipping, must also be balanced against the need for world trade. However, when it comes to bunker oil,governments have the right, and duty to ban these vessels from their ports.

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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Quote:

John, my original observation was to illustrate that the technology for relatively long distance EV travel exists. Like all new technologies, it begins expensively and rapidly becomes commonplace.

Hi Marco, and the reason I continually call for more specifics is to highlight the fact that while your position is predicated on "relatively long distance EV travel" and that those EVs remain elusively "just around the next corner" in terms of viability for mass adoption. Whereas my position is predicated on a mixed fleet all of which are either viable for mass adoption today or are already in the market (just not the mass market) at relatively affordable prices. Diesels are common place, medium range EVs are in the market from major players, PHEVs are in the market with many more in the final stages of preparation.

Why not make several small incremental change towards a "better place" rather than waiting for the "silver bullet"?

Both you and I are realists. Neither of us expect a massive change in lifelong habits. But both of us believe that the realities of economic, environmental and political factors will result in the increased electrification of personal transportation. I actually think your position (quick fill) is more likely because it fits current habits. However, if we could persuade the marketeers to educate the mass market of the viability of my suggested fleet breakdown then I believe my solution is far more efficient. And efficiency matters in all aspects of life: less dollars and resources focused on the personal transportation issue will free up those resources for something else. Perhaps some of those resources would be available to direct to the shipping issues that are dear to your heart?.

So, we can agree to differ. We're both right and we're both wrong. I think your position is more likely to come to reality. I think my position is the better solution.

Hey, maybe I should take a leaf out of Shai Agassi's play book and call myself "Project Better Solution"! ;-)

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

Why not make several small incremental change toward a "better place" rather than waiting for the "silver bullet"?

Yes, I absolutely agree. A totally EV fleet is the future. But in the short to medium term,automotive manufacturers should be developing existing technology to be as environmentally friendly as possible. EV's will take time to replace the ICE, but it's heartening to see Renault/Nissan investing and marketing so aggressively.

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marcopolo
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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

@John, check out the new Peugeot 508 RXH Diesel electric hybrid, just add bio-diesel and you have your dream come true!

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Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

Not quite I'm afraid. I don't think that one's a plug-in hybrid - or is it?

Also, it'll never, ever make it to the US. (Which makes me crazy - harmonizing vehicle codes would have so much benefit for easily having global vehicles.)

Thanks for the heads up though.

I have my eye on the Ford CMax Plug-In Hybrid that's supposedly MY13 and thus available in latter half of 2012. It's petrol not diesel - but plug-in is more important to me than which version of liquified-dead-dinosaurs that I put in the tank. http://www.egmcartech.com/2011/06/09/2013-ford-c-max-will-only-be-hybrid-plug-in-hybrid-model-in-u-s/

Of course, even when a diesel plug-in hybrid does arrive Stateside I'm sure the manufacturer will put lots of "warranty void if you put anything over B10 in it.

So, I'm still dreaming! (reminds me of the Supertramp song "Dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer...")

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

MikeB
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Joined: 04/14/2008
Points: 517
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

Of course, even when a diesel plug-in hybrid does arrive Stateside I'm sure the manufacturer will put lots of "warranty void if you put anything over B10 in it.

Volkswagen doesn't want anything more than B5 in my Jetta TDI, but they actually have a pretty good reason. Up to B20 might be usable with more frequent oil changes, but they really need to redesign in order to allow anything more than that.

The issue is well described here: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/2290/understanding-the-post-injection-problem/

I won't replace my Jetta until I can get a good PHEV that I like, but it's looking increasingly likely that the replacement won't be a diesel.

__________________

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

marcopolo
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Joined: 05/10/2009
Points: 837
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

I don't think that one's a plug-in hybrid - or is it?

Well, in that case we have just tweaked my LEVRR to get over 200 mile range, towing a horse float! Maybe that would appeal. I mean, no more Dino fuel ever!

Better than that even, why not build your self an EV hybrid (small diesel of your choice) conversion from your favourite vehicle. Wouldn't be cheap, but as a promotions vehicle must be deductible. (recruit labour from local uni or technical college).

Just a thought,you have the technical know-how and facilities.

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marcopolo

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
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Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

@MikeB - thanks for the link about bio-diesel. Darn!

@marco - what exactly is the LEVRR? I just googled and didn't find anything?(*) And the idea of a DIY PHEV conversion is interesting - but I'm on strict instructions for "no more projects until Current Motor is making me rich". I can't think why! ;-)

(*) Well actually what I found was a downright nasty thread over on AEVA in which there's some serious class warfare attached. Ouch! It makes the worst posts on here look positively angelic!

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

marcopolo
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009
Points: 837
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

jdh2550_1 wrote:

what exactly is a LEVRR?

The LEVRR website, Liberty Electric Cars www.liberty-ecars.com ,could do with updating, but you get the idea. It's possible to order the vehicle to your own specifications. (at a price!) but the results are excellent!

Quote:

The idea of a DIY PHEV conversion is interesting - but I'm on strict instructions for "no more projects until Current Motor is making me rich". I can't think why!

Yep, I can understand your colleagues instructions. I'm always wandering off to my pet projects, much to the irritation of family and colleagues.

Quote:

Well actually what I found was a downright nasty thread over on AEVA in which there's some serious class warfare attached. Ouch! It makes the worst posts on here look positively angelic

Oh, in comparison with the UK socialist-left, the Australians are a mild bunch! But curiously there is a certain type of Australian, who despises anything made in Australia! In the the US, Ross Blade, manufacturer of the Blade Electron EV, would be feted as a national hero! But, in Australia he struggles for recognition!

Australian politics have grown very divisive since the last election. The centre-left minority government relies on the Green Party votes to cling to power by one vote. If the polls are to be believed, an election held today would see the government swept away by a landslide. As a result, many of the more extreme-left supporters are really desperate.

(Australia has a similar political system as Canada).

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marcopolo

MikeB
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Joined: 04/14/2008
Points: 517
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

marcopolo wrote:

Thank you, for listening. I have been campaigning for over 20 years to ban Bunker oil for maritime use. It's very hard to explain to ardent environmentalists that the ship bringing their solar panels, has creates more pollution than all the cargo of solar panels can save in thirty years! The incredible amount of environmental damage created by shipping, must also be balanced against the need for world trade. However, when it comes to bunker oil,governments have the right, and duty to ban these vessels from their ports.

Marco, I saw this article this weekend, and though about this conversation:

"IMO environment meeting adopts mandatory energy efficiency measures for international shipping."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/07/eedi-20110716.html

Not great progress, but the shipping industry is slowly working towards better standards.

There's also a big movement to force these ships to shut down their engines while docked in port, and use shore power. This is happening much faster, since it sames them money, and they just have to add in the electrical connections needed to supply the ship.

__________________

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

marcopolo
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009
Points: 837
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

@ Mike B

Thank you for that link. Yeah, it's really pathetic! Tthe IMO's has all the power of a timid rabbit!

The PRC doesn't even bother to report 40% of its emissions and the IMO is too timid to ask why! Not that PRC is alone in this practise. In fact the best estimate is that only about 11 maritime nations bother to accurately report emissions.

When it comes to shipping, the WHO organisation, or IMO figures of 3.5-5% of world C/C emissions are very understated.

I have often contemplated running some sort of Class action lawsuit on behalf of the more than 60-100 thousand deaths, and 5 million health defects per annum. If i was younger, or specialised in that sort of law, it would be a noble cause to pursue.

But thank you for your interest.

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marcopolo

orangebull
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Joined: 08/14/2011
Points: 9
Re: Unlimited range for electric cars or am I living in ...

What if they buried witricity chargers inside roads, and standardized burst transmitters and wireless metering systems with gps based telemetry transmitted to utility companies to allow vehicles to charge by magnetic resononance wirelessly while driving? They could actually charge a road tax for this kind of fuel source, and with smart grid technology the road would only come to life as a charging station on an as needed basis. In other words, the transfer switches would only pop on in the seconds before the car passes over the charging element and then would go off after it has passed. With a 95% efficiency, and the appropriate telemetry, these smart road charging systems would work wonders.

It would take political will to fix this problem, but this would be the kind of infrastructure investment that would make the country considerably wealthier in a short period of time.

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