Good Reliable battery?

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Drunkskunk
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I'm always looking for better, but in the world of batteries, thats a good thing, right?

My bike right now gets a good reliable 15 miles on 4 SLA 12 volt, 10AH batteries. They weigh 30 pounds, charge up in just under 4 hours, and won't explode if punctured. at $30 a battery, there not very expensive either.

But I want more range, and more life out of my battery. 15 miles is the distance to work for me one way by truck, but there's no way to take that route with a bike. No sidewalks, high trafic roads, and 45mph speedlimits or higher, meaning I'm going to take the long way.

What I need is a better battery. My goal is 20 amps at 48 volts and under 30 lbs, and under $500. Is there any possable way to reach this goal? And if I can't reach it, how much closer can I get than what I have now?

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HCT
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

What you are looking for is paying about $.50 for Watt/Hour ,your lead acid that you are using cost you $.25 W/H but you can only get half the energy of the batteries at the rate you are taking it out .
You will be very hard pressed to get high reliability , low weight and high cycle for less than $ 1.00 W/H .
Have some nickel-zinc 48 volt 30 A/H weight in about 34 kg that I would let go for about $ .50 W/H ,question is do you the room on your scooter and the charger ?
Regards
Andre

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andrew
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

http://www.batteryspace.com

48v/1.2v = 40 NiMH cells required. At 10ah for D cells you'd need two packs in parallel for a total of 80 cells.

It'd take 5 of these: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=710 costing $565.25

80 cells at 160g ea = 12800g/453 = 28.25 lbs .

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Drunkskunk
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Nice! its only about double the comparitive cost of SLA, but more than double the Cycle life, so long haul, it should be cheaper. I priced it out, its even cheaper to buy there individual tabbed D cells by a little bit. I guess I need to learn what makes a better battery and how to build them.

As for chargers, Will a SLA style charger work on NiMH? Would it be better to build the battery into small bicks of 12 volts to charge, ot is it better to charge as a single pack? Are there any recomended chargers in the .25C+ range?

andrew
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Glad you like them, I wasn't sure if I was giving bad advice. ;)

If you buy the tabbed onces, you might want to add some solder, as they've had poor spot welds on them in the past. It can damage the cells to solder to them, but I've done it and so have others without problems.

SLA charger will not work. You'll want a good quality NiMH charger. For charging it is probably best to build into smallest bricks possible while still practical. 12v might be good, but you'll need 8 chargers to charge all at once. You can't charge them in parallel, only one string per charger.

I've heard of batteryspace's NiMH chargers failing. They are a good source none-the-less.
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HCT
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Interesting suggestion ! using the " D" . Have some apprehension regarding the internal impedance of the cells and also the reliability of so many intercells connections .
If I was doing this power pack would consider seriously the Panasonic HHR650D "D" cells measured as low as 2 milliohms per cell, their cost is however fairly high about $ 14 each . for a 6.5 A/H cell , have been able to take out over 250 Amps out of a single "D" for almost a minute.
Would suspect that the impedance of the Battery Space cell may be quite high ( over 10 milliohms ) and when the intercell connection are added quite a lot of power will be wasted in the battery pack .
Low impedance is as important as the A/H since it limit how fast and the percentage of the energy that can be taken out .
Somewhat surprised that cell impedance is not mentioned more when dealing with heavy discharge rate ( multiple C rate)

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Drunkskunk
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

So whats the best way to join the cells together? I'd assumed it was soldering, but I've never tried to build a pack before.

I understand about the internal resistance, both as a whole and on individual cells. Hopefully there won't be too much of a problem with it, as at full speed, on the least efficent motor setting I'm just a hair above 1.2C with the SLAs. Is there a better solution?

HCT
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Amazed that you are able to power the bike with only 60 w/h which is about 1/10 hp !
Is the 1.2 A drain ounce you get up to speed or is that when you are accelarating ?
When measuring the 1.2 A what was the voltage at the motor ? ,not at the battery .
maybe you loose a lot going from the battery to the motor ! .
If this is the real current then you should be able to get at least 5-6 hours running
time on the lead acid pack 10 A/H divided by 1.2 = 8 hours due to inefficient should
get about 6 hours .

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HCT
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ERROR ! ! ! read AMPS instead of C big difference

MY ERROR AFTER REREADING YOUR MESSAGE SEE THAT THE DRAIN WAS 1.2 C NOT Amps
the 1.2 C at would be about 12 Amps that is more like it = 600 W/H SORRY ! !

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andrew
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Another thing to consider is cell life. I doubt the Chinese cells would last as long as good quality Panasonic, Sanyo, or SAFT cells.

BTW, SAFT sells a 15 ah cell http://www.batterystore.com/Saft/VHF.htm

By only having to charge 1 string (and saving some on chargers) this might not be much more expensive.
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mn_aerorider1
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

You could build a nice pack from about 13 Dewalt A123 Packs.

I've built a nice 36 Volt 11.5 AH pack from 5 such packs in parallel for my Aerorider.

I estimate it would take about 13 Dewalt packs (netting 4 extra cells) to build a 20lb, 20AH 48 volt pack, (This is bare cell weight, and does not include any of the extra weight it would take to tie the pack together) This would cost you about $1300 on ebay, but it would give you >2000 recharges, lasting quite a bit longer than most other batteries. (They also are stated to have a 5 year shelf life)

The cool thing is that it meets all your specs including your under 30 lb weight. They are also flat voltage wise until nearly the end of the discharge cycle, and can handle a nail driven through them....

Jazzyrigged
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Trying to figure out what type of battery to use on my electric rebel project. I've looked over a wide range of B&B batteries and am considering their agm as it can be mounted anywhere. I'd love some alternate considerations from anybody.

Also on the agm batteries, has anyone had experience with Powersonic, Eagle Picher, Toyo, universal batteries, or Panasonic. I've heard good things about B&B, and my father in law has worked with Eagle Picher, just looking for others experiences.

Planning on a 72volt system if that helps

jbird
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

In addition to the EB and EVP series from B&B, you may want to consider the Odyssey series by Enersys especially if price is not a problem. The other brands mentioned would probably not perform as well but may be much cheaper options though.

http://www.odysseyfactory.com/documents/US-ODY-AM-001_0406.pdf

andrew
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Tysonic batteries are cheap.

I think most AGM batteries are about on par with each other. Exceptionally tough batteries are Hawker Enersys which makes Odyssey, Genesis, and Cyclone. Its more important how you treat the battery.
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Drunkskunk
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Re: Good Reliable battery?

Well, after a lot of advise, research, and comparison, I think the D cells Andrew linked are going to be the best "bang-for-the-buck" solution. A123s would be better, but cost prohibitive. the D cell pack will run me around 800 with chargers that can get it recharged in 4 hours. to do that with the A123s, i'd be looking at $2000 total cost.

What I need now is some way to join D cells together in a low resistance configuration. 39 lead solder joints would have too high of resistance, maybe as high as a half ohm! Actualy, welding nickel tabs between them is still fairly high resistance. what I need is some kind of tube to put them in, were I can get direct end to end connections. Something like a flashlight tube, only longer, and more compact. Does anything like that exsist for D size batteries?

HCT
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Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

Several years back had to come up with a 36 volts NC system capable of providing 5,000 peak power . I ended with 5 sticks of 6 cells stacked in length wise , the total connection impedance was about less than 20 milliohms , the total battery system impedance with cells and connection was 98 milliohms . we where able to pull about 150 amps , using the Panasonic HHR650D cell.
If you need help on how to weld them , call me ( 203)627-8426 Be glad to post a picture of the system , how do I bring it in from my drive ??
Regards
Andre

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NickF23
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

I've got lots of soldered joins in my nimh packs. Not really noticed any more voltage sag versus welds. Lots of RC types prefer soldered joins for lower resistance. The other options is making a tube under compression with silver paste. See http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/products/SPTs/kits.php

Drunkskunk
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

Yeah, thats the tube setup that got me asking about them, but that company doesn't make a size "D" tube. I figure someone someplace has to make something for size "D".

NickF23
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

There was a guy on the old voltage forum who used a piece of plumbing pipe there a link to a site somewhere, If I was gonna build one I'd try to use aluminium or ventilate the pipe as cooling very important for nimh

Stleride
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

HCT,

Quote:

Be glad to post a picture of the system , how do I bring it in from my drive ??

Upload your image to http://visforvoltage.org/user/174/imce, additional information can be found on the Help Tutorials or
Uploading an image to the site

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HCT
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

This is my first attempt to up load images to this site

MVC-018F.jpg
cells_stick_assy_.jpg

The pictures are of a 5,000 W 36 volts pack and 28 volts 6.5 A/H Mil power pack to download
sensitive telemetry information both system employed welded cup to insure high reliability and
very low interconnect impedance ( each cell connection was less than 100 microhms ) any type of
soldering or pressure connection where at least 10 times higher under the best circumstance .

Regards
Andre

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Stleride
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

`HCT,
Looks like you did a good job posting the pictures.

Stleride
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Moderators are community volunteers who help keep V is for Voltage Forums running smoothly, and provide forum support.

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evlithium
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Re: Good Reliable battery? weld them using cup end to end

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