Hello new guy here, build a fast sport moped (not for the pocketbike section)
I am very excited to find a message board full of people passionate about electric vehicles. I'm sure you have heard this before, but i just saw "who killed the electric car" the other day and was totally inspired. I am currently working on plans to build a full electric Sport Moped. What i mean by that is a moped (yes the 30 year old things with 50cc 2 stroke engines and pedals) retrofitted with a powerful electric engine that will allow a cruising speed of 45mph.
I have LOTS of experience building sport mopeds, big bore kits, expansion chamber exhausts, larger carbs, racing transmissions etc etc. And I'm the bad guy with a gigantic plume of blue smoke coming out the back of my super loud super fast little bike. I have long taken advantage of moped laws that make it so you don't need to pass emissions and have done my fair share of polluting as i used to drive a jeep.
I would like to start making up for that and hopefully push lots of my friends in the right direction as i do it. I belong to a large community called mopedarmy.com there are branches all over America full of your 30's and 20 something kids who take these old bikes and make them push as many HP as possible before they break. We spend wayyyy too much money buying rare engines from Europe, India, Africa, south America whatever we can get our hands on. I was in the middle of designing my next new project, 3 speed hand shift puch magnum totally custom when i saw this movie. Now i am convinced that i need to make an electric bike instead.
My biggest issue is power. If i want to impress my friends and convince them to do what im about to attempt i have to show them its worth it. That means the project has to cost less than 1000$ and be able to produce a bike that can do 40+ for a decent range per charge. Now i personally am ok with spending around 1500$ and getting a bike that will go a little faster or longer. This could be totally awesome. One of the reasons we like mopeds so much is how cheap gas is for us. This is even cheaper and parts wont constantly be breaking, we wont need to pay for racing oils, gaskets, bearings, etc etc.
You could be looking at some new blood in the EV fan club. So wish me luck and please offer any tips you have.
Here is a cheap quick mock up of what i want to build. I am assuming that i will have to use heavy SLA batteries so i currently am thinking i will have to mount the motor on the rear of the seat. If i put any of the battery weight up top this bike is going to be very unstable. It is a very light frame and a complete moped with motor still weighs less than 150lbs. I don't know anything about electrics except what i have learned with mopeds, you know points, condensers, coils, magnetos, grounds the easy stuff. So i will be starting fresh but I'm a quick learner.
I am thinking that i would be using the ETEK DC motor at 36v. That would mean 3 big 12v SLA batteries right? Could i use 6 smaller SLA batteries and be able to disperse the weight more evenly? or would that not be cost effective? Are there any semi affordable batteries like the NiHm that i saw in that movie? whats cutting edge that doesnt cost thousands of dollars?
My main question is where should i look for resources on the build? I have seen that guy with the El Ninja, El Diablo and El Cheeta. Are his books really worth buying? or are there good step by step guides on the internet for a newbie like me?
anyway here is a pic of the setup I'm thinking about, don't worry i would build a chain guard =)
and here are some of the builds i have done in the past. you can see my general theme and style is the new vintage cafe racer look.
1979 monza 4sl 50cc 4speed (the only one in america)
1977 monza 6sl 65cc 2 speed auto (the only one in america)
1977 Puch pinto/murray/magnum/freespirit mutt 65cc 1 speed
1982 Puch Tri Rad 2 speed auto 50cc custom trike
If someone really doesnt know anything about electronics and cycles, then buying his books wouldnt hurt. (I am assuming its from http://www.21wheels.com or rqriley) For you, I think you might have more than enough experience to muddle through. First look at others ppl's builds in the http://www.evalbum.com in both the bike/moped section and the motorcycle section to compare distance, performance, weight, batts, etc.
When it comes to Permanent Magnet DC motors like the Etek, increasing the voltage increases the speed/RPM and HP. http://www.electricmotorsport.com has a graph for you to compare 48V vers 36V. Limiting you voltage to 36V limits the max RPM you can expect and may not have the desired effect you are looking for. Its better for you to start with 48V and go up from there (if your Etek can handle it). Pay close attention to Power to Weight and gearing. Generally, distance will be how good your batts are. Good luck, if done right, I have seen many riders impressed with the performance.
Oh, and poke your head around the listserver http://www.electricmotorcycles.net
I can't believe you are doing a conversion on a Puch Magnum! I have a half-finished conversion on the same moped in my garage. I haven't worked on it in over two years, but it was about 80% finished. My goal was to use as many recycled parts as possible, so I got a clapped out old Puch for free at the dump, and I have a military surplus 24 volt jet blower motor. The RPMs are way too high, so I had to fabricate a jackshaft to hold a intermediary sprocket to keep the speed down to 35MPH. I decided to mount the motor in the same position as the original ICE engine to keep the weight low, and place 2 twelve volt batteries in front of the motor, below the frame. I have the jack shaft, mount, and motor installed and have tested the setup with a controller on a stand in the garage, but still need to fabricate the battery brackets. Why haven't I finished it? I bought an EVT 4000e.
The Etek is a very powerful motor for a moped. One of the guys on the old forum put an Etek on a Lepton, and he could smoke the tire. I would consider mounting the Etek in the same location as the original ICE engine. The Etek can generate mucho torque with the right controller. The physics of the Puch are set up for an engine below the frame. As for batteries, I'd stick to sealed lead acid AGMs (absorbed glass mat). Let's you pull more current for better low end torque. Unless you have the big bucks for the A123 Lithium iron phosphate cells (see A123racing.com).
Talk to Todd or Patrick at Electric Motorsport (electricmotorsport.com) they have the Eteks and can advise you on batteries and controllers. They sell production electric scooters and converted motorcycles. Good luck with the project!
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
My biggest issue is power...That means the project has to cost less than 1000$
72v will yield a lot more power than 48v, and an etek can take it okay. But the controller, and charger will be more expensive. The electric GPR at the link goodnslo posted runs at 48v and probably has decent acceleration (though they wouldn't let us ride it at EVS20 :( ). I don't suggest you run at 36v, because 48v charger and controller is not much more expensive.
I suggest you take some time and think about what some of your goals are for the project, and which are most important. For my project (link at bottom) I was more concerned with it being fun than anything else, and that is why I spent the extra money to run 72v, and get two eteks. It wouldn't be smart to run a lower voltage considering my goals and budget.
I am assuming that i will have to use heavy SLA batteries
This highly depends on how much range you want. You could get 4 B&B 20ah batteries, which would get you about 5-8 miles and weigh <60 lbs. Range would go up about linearly with battery capacity (i.e., 40 ah batteries might yield 10-20 miles range depending on how you ride).
whats cutting edge that doesnt cost thousands of dollars?
AGMs are about all there is for your budget.
Bidwell's books are a good resource. I've got the Secrets of El Ninja plans and they helped with my project.
P.S. Your design with the motor mounted that way will probably not work, unless you replace the rear shocks with struts.
Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here E.T.A. 1 mo
WELCOME to the site.
You clearly have more experience with building bikes than I do, but are you sure you want to mount the motor where you've drawn it? Like how can you handle the chain going slack or maybe popping off the sprockets when you go over bumps? The rule of thumb I've heard is to put the motor where the motor is supposed to go.
Okay, so some practicalities about the electrics....
Generally you can go fast or you can go far, but generally you can't do both at the same time.
You should be able to build a fast moped that does the speed you're talking about, but it's unlikely to have any kind of decent range. The problem is largely the amount of electricity you can store on board. While there are more advanced battery chemistries available the battery pack will shoot way past your budget.
It's possible to build a fast bike on low voltage, like 36 volts. But it's easier to build fast with high voltage. You can drive etek's at 72 volts.
What I would think about is a 72 volt 18 AH pack using B&B or Hawker batteries. But if the bike you choose can hold a bigger pack then go for it.
- David Herron, http://davidherron.com/
dude, I don't think you're going to have enough space to mount the Etek on the swingarm. The diameter is pretty big for a DC motor, since it uses the 'pancake' design like the Lynch motors. I saw that approach in the El Chopper plans, but I think the Puch Magnum's frame is too small to make that work. You might want to check out other small DC motors that could fit better, although the Etek gets you lots of torque for the price.
Regarding the batteries, you have the advantage of being relatively light at 155lbs. I'm almost twice that, so I max out the bike's weight rating all by myself. Me plus batteries equals overloaded suspension. I was quite concerned about the amount of weight I was putting on such a small bike even with only two batteries. If I were you, I'd go with six, 20Ah, 12 volt batteries with as many under the frame as will fit, then put the rest inside the frame as needed. Raises the CG, but worth it for the extra voltage. Go for performance and don't worry about the range.
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Deafscooter is Here...
I read the picture on your bike has rear section areas
Etek motor => mount on rear of seat ( frame)
Rear wheel => mount to swing arm
Chain or belt => between Etek motor and rear wheel drive
There can snap or loose chain when you ride rough mountian or bump on road
it can slip or /and get loose the chain or get off from sprocket or pulley !!!!!
Deafscooter suggust you put etek motor on mount inside the frame ( like gas engine mount )
then make sure the chain or belt between swing arm -->> (0) ==== (wheel)
Not here is
That swing arm doesn't offer much space for the motor. The ETEK is a very wide motor. The El Chopper ET plan has you use a Honda Rebel frame, because the swing arm has a large enough space to mount the motor. My El Chopper ET (halfway finished) is being based on a different frame, and I went and bought a Honda Rebel swingarm on which to mount the motor. I coulda used the existing swingarm.. e.g. "cut and lengthen" but I didn't trust myself to do that properly.
- David Herron, http://davidherron.com/
Deafscooter is Here...
i look at it and there better layout the battery near etek
Why not you put battery package in center of the frame
==>> not under the frame if you ride the rock and the
rock will hit the battery pack!! ( unless you put guard from rock
to your battery pack -> under the frame areas
i recommeced you put battery pack inside the frame areas!!
I think your second layout above is much better. I had the same issues with weight, only add another 150 lbs to the rider ; ) I figured once I got the thing working, I'd add stronger springs, better brakes, etc, as kind of an iterative approach. I agree, the stock Puch drum brakes are inadequate for the heavier load. I never did get around to sourcing disk brakes for the thing, but let me know if you find any. Regen is complex and problematic with DC motors. Better brakes are the simplest solution. Keep the CG as low as is practical, but put the batteries where you have to and see if it works. I think you should be OK with the layout above, if it is approximately to scale, the batteries should be in about the same spot as the ICE engine. Craig (Deafscooter) has a point about some sort of guard or shield in front of the bottom batteries. I don't see you taking this moped off road, so it wouldn't have to be much, aluminum plate, or plastic would do.
When I was working on the Puch conversion I didn't have this forum for support. I had all kinds of people tell me that it would never work. Well, I'm telling you it can and does work. Stick to your guns and tell the naysayers that you enjoy a challenge!
Silver EVT 4000e (60 volt) San Mateo, CA
Your moped was designed to support a 200+ lb rider whose center of gravity is above the entire rest of the bike. I think you're putting too much emphasis on battery placement; you're not factoring in the rider's weight.
Is there anyway to do regenerative braking on this thing?
This controller might do it: http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/co-tpm400.htm
Alltrax 48V 600 Amp Controller
Logisystems offers some high amps controllers, item 320106457361 on ebay.
I would look at Logisystems Controllers. These guys know what they are doing and are producing their own boxes and no longer rebuilding the curtis'. Their web site is under construction at the moment but you can find detailed descriptions of the most popular on e-bay. Seller chrisst907 they are between $275 and $320.
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