Range Anxiety

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davew
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One of the first questions people usually ask about electric cars is "How far does it go?" The question is good and natural, but betrays a perspective completely of the gasoline world. For instance this would usually not be a question you would ask about an internal combustion car even though they too have a finite range. "In my gas car I will drive 300 or 400 miles and then I will be at a gas station where I will refill and move on." It took us decades to get so cavalier about a process with many, many moving parts. If you were around like I was in the 1970s you know that gas is not always easy to find. The same holds for disaster areas like post-Katrina gulf states and post-tsunami Japan where electric vehicles were *very* popular. True gasoline is energy dense and will push a car farther than batteries currently will, but then you have to find a gas station. With electric vehicles you only need a plug. Any plug. The fancy 240V chargers like we have in our garage are better and the 15-minute recharge stations are even better, but these are strictly for convenience. There are a couple dozen gas stations in my town. There are millions of wall sockets. Which one of us should be anxious? Imagine this going the other way around and electric cars are the norm and we are going to gasoline. "You mean I can't refill in my garage? I have to go to a special place? What if they are closed? What if they run out of fuel? What if I'm low on gas and not near one of these special places? How do I know they won't arbitrarily raise prices whenever they feel like it? What do you mean most of it has to be brought to the US in ships?!"

Mainstream electric cars are new and different and will take some getting used to. It doesn't take too much effort, however, to see the electric car advantages vastly outweigh the disadvantages and are much better suited to the ways most people actually use their cars most of the time.

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pcarlson1979
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Points: 459
Re: Range Anxiety

I couldn't agree more. I slowly made my transition to electric. I started by building an electric bicycle with a 70km range and started going for 60-80km rides and managed to lose a LOT of weight! Then I upgraded the 500w motor to a 750w motor for more speed, Then to a 1800w motor for MORE speed but my range was down to 22km. Then I bought an 8000w electric scooter and love the speed, but because of its size, it can still go about 80km per charge and can hit 100km/h.

I have had my electric scooter now for 4 months and have nearly put on 4000km and my "range anxiety" was drmatically reduced when I installed a Cycle Analyst to see how many Ah I had left in the battery because the "fuel gauge" was not accurate enough. I have never run out of power and I have made a mental note of where all the power points are around town, like in shopping centers.

I went to the pizza shop last night to get my pizzas and there was a guy there interested and the first thing he say "how far can you go?". He seemed un-impressed with the 80km answer so I pointed out I drive it as long as I want all day and when I get home I plug it in and when I wake up in the morning it's full again.

My record is currently 112km in one day running around town christmas shopping and plugging in at every shopping center I visited.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

EV quantum leap
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Re: Range Anxiety

Hello Dave and all; I believe that I may have the technologies to stop range anxiety but it takes some financial resources to do so.

To: Whom it may concern
For: The American People.
From: Edward Heath Owner/Operator of New Ideas and Innovations, LLC
e-mail: edwardselectriccar@yahoo.com
Hello Americans; my name is Edward and I believe that I have the technologies needed for “Sustained Ultra-Extended Electric Vehicle Travel”! (SUEEVT) If you are tired of paying $70.00 or more for a fill-up (gasoline or diesel) for your vehicle then I might have the solution and I am asking for your help. I am seeking a total of $ 4.8 million dollars for research / development and to build prototype vehicles (bought off the dealers lot, not custom made –like Tesla, Coda, Leaf, etc.) to prove my technologies work; (I know it sounds like a lot of money and it is, but it also goes quite quickly- but not to me but for the business, I can assure you of that). The funds would go to the shop, vehicles (initially named EEV-3 for Edwards Electric Vehicle, and the 3 stands for the three different energy forms saved or conserved while driving the EEV-3 and they are: coal, crude oil and natural gas), machinery, equipment, CAD/CAM software, international patent protection, components / parts / assemblies, employee payroll and other operating expenses. I request amounts between $1.00 and $100.00 or whatever amount you are happy with. Please send check or money order to address above with your name and address so that I may send you a thank you card. The U.S. Government, Venture Capital / Angel Investors, and vehicle manufacturers do not want to assist me in my endeavor so I humbly ask for your much appreciated assistance in this very serious matter! I have been pursuing financing for over a year now. They are all afraid of “big oil” companies. I am not. Big oil usually equates to big trouble. ‘Can you say’ “greed” and “Lobbyists” who are only concerned for their well being and not for the well being for us as a country, they are very selfish!
If you have any questions, please feel free to send me an email to: edwardselectriccar@yahoo.com . I have a provisional patent on this project patents on other energy and / or natural resource conserving innovations and I am a serious innovator, I am not a nut, a scammer or a thief; far from it. I am trying to use my intelligence and engineering experience to make our country great again and to greatly reduce our dependence on foreign oil from countries that do not like us. This technology will not lose jobs (not even for the oil companies because we as a nation still need kerosene, heating oil and gasoline for small engines), but rather would increase jobs here in the States by having at least one electric vehicle conversion center in each state. That is something that we do not have right now. The conversion to mostly electric vehicles would take 5-7 years, not just a couple of years.
I thank you for your financial assistance, especially during this recession and tough economic / financial times! The payoff would be fantastic for our country though if I can prove my technologies by driving across America in one of the EEV-3 retro-fitted vehicles in 3 or less charging cycles! People would not be afraid in purchasing electric vehicles equipped with this technology. By the way, in case you were wondering, my technologies are NOT based solely on the principles of “perpetual motion”. My company has been around for 5 ½ years, working on technologies that save good Americans as yourself, money, energy and / or natural resources like our clean fresh water. Please help the United States (U.S.) and us as Americans regain our strength as world leaders in national security and innovations that help all of us live better lives, now and for generations to come!

Thank you all again for your understanding and assistance!

Sincerely and Honestly Submitted: Edward Heath - Owner / Chief Design Engineer of New Ideas and Innovations, LLC

Edward Heath _______________________________

__________________

Edward - innovator of many good, practical and useful things!

PJD
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Joined: 11/22/2006
Points: 1243
Re: Range Anxiety

Dave,

Excellent points! Such critical thinking can be applied to many aspects of our economic system as well.

In a more sane world, it is those who rely on a smelly, nasty, toxic, exotic petroleum distillate cocktail, manufactured in only, perhaps, 20 or 30 places in all of North America, who should be suffering "anxiety".

But additionally, it is only becasue of the the absurd, deliberately-designed-to-be-inefficient (and therefore maximize fossil fuel usage) sprawl that characterizes most of the US, that anyone should be worried about a range of 50 miles (80km) not being adequate for day today commuting and errands. Thankfully, I live in a older "quaint" city were there really is no local errand or commuting that I ever do where the 40-50 mile range of my C124 is not more than adequate. And, if it were to become inadequate, I keep a mental list of electric outlets in public parks and parking lots and parking garages.

Anyone familiar with the modern desire-and-consent manufacturing machinery of our economic system (google "Edward Bernays" and "Walter Lippman") knows that such "range anxiety" is largely a aspect of a culture meticulous engineered to maximize sales for the wildly profitable petroleum industry.

gasdive
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Joined: 10/28/2010
Points: 90
Re: Range Anxiety

I say to people, "if you had an option to buy a mobile phone that you could take to a shop and recharge in 5 mintues but you couldn't charge it up at home while you're asleep, would that be an advantage to you?"

Apparently that's "different" but they can never explain why that's "different". I can only think that it's different because they're used to the inconvence of filling up the car with petrol and so don't think about it. They find the idea of making their mobile as inconvenient unpalatable but they find it hard to understand why.

__________________

Jason
Blogging my Zero DS from day one http://zerods.blogspot.com/

LeftieBiker
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Joined: 07/09/2011
Points: 654
Re: Range Anxiety

I can develop an entirely new form of drive system based even less on perpetual motion for 4.*5* million dollars. And I accept Paypal!

PJD
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Joined: 11/22/2006
Points: 1243
Re: Range Anxiety

Electric personal vehicles are not going to be practical for long, out of town trips. Someday we will once again have fast, frequent intercity rail transportation, but there are still things like weekend and vacation outings to remote trail heads in the mountains or such. But then again, there is no need to own a car just for such less frequent stuff. Renting, or things like the eminently practical "zip-cars" make more sense.

But the range anxiety seems to come up even in the context of local travel.

Ultimately, it is just a vague feeling of "freedom" that one gets in knowing that one merely has the option of hopping behind a wheel, with literally a ton of their belongings in the back, and heading west to "Cali-for-nye-a" or such (I'm not sure where Californians want to head to). But this is an odd form of "freedom" becasue it cannot ever be completely satisfied. Why, therefore, do they not feel "unfree" becasue that cannot hop in their personal Airbus A340 from their personal runway and go to China whenever one feel like?

Ultimately, as I wrote earlier, it is simply matter of the PR/advertising system that is very effective in manufacturing prevailing attitudes and assumptions and "fads" that maximize profitability for corporations that rely on increased fossil fuel usage. In the US in particular, all sorts of cultural habits seem to be finely-tuned to maximize fossil fuel usage - in ways that a hypothetical visiting "Martian" (or maybe just someone from Germany) would think quite absurd. For example, a US custom, in restaurants, that bothers me no end, of serving water that is nearly all ice (even in the dead of winter when the water comes out of the tap plenty cold), and the waiters do it so quickly that me and my wife have to literally have to shout out loud, but always too late: "noplease onlyalittle ice!" Well, have you ever thought of the energy required to make all that ice over the course of a day? And, refrigeration is not a very energy-efficient process. Looking around one can find other examples of this sort of stuff too.

If we are going to continue to rely on the current "free market" fad-manufacturing system to do this, EV manufacturers will only succeed if they can make make EV's as "cool" as the latest I-phone. But the advertising budget to do this will cost about a billion dollars a year over several years. Apple's advertising budget alone is about .7 billion, and Microsoft, about $1.5 billion. John, if you are reading this, what is CuMoCo's advertising budget?

pcarlson1979
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Points: 459
Re: Range Anxiety

@PJD

Honestly I've always thought that is Apple make an all electric car (they have money and the means plus the cool factor) I think the entire world would actually accept it. The iCar. It would have the slickest design, black and white colour options. It would get the same 160km range but because it's made by apple it would be largely accepted. I'd buy one!

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

LeftieBiker
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Joined: 07/09/2011
Points: 654
Re: Range Anxiety

Range anxiety is *not* a manufactured concept. In the case of actual EV owners it's knowing that you can't go as far as you would actually want to, in real life. I was used to riding 30-60 miles on my motorcycle, at 50-60MPH. If I could do that with any of my scooters, I'd be happy. I can't.

PJD
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Joined: 11/22/2006
Points: 1243
Re: Range Anxiety

"I was used to riding 30-60 miles on my motorcycle, at 50-60MPH. If I could do that with any of my scooters, I'd be happy. I can't."

My C124 could do 40 miles at 50 mph. The C130 could achieve the middle of your range at 60 mph. At any rate, the intended function of electric scooters is practical, day-to-day personal transportation. For long recreational rides out in the countryside, I agree that an IC engine will generally be necessary.

PJD
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Points: 1243
Re: Range Anxiety

pcarlson,

I assume that you are being sarcastic. Why Apple? With a big enough PR or advertising budget "CuMoCo of fashionable Ann Arbor" could be coolest thing around.

For example, in the Appalachian region where I live - from Pennsylvania through Kentucky (and also the southern Midwest), there is a major PR push to make the mining and burning of coal "cool" again. TV and print ads, billboards, bumper stickers and custom pickup truck mud flaps with a chrome miner crawling in a low-coal seam in place of the chrome woman with the big breasts. Also, a logo "Friend of Coal" with a black "swoosh" resembling the Nike swoosh.

But also, wherever you go in West Virginia and eastern Kentucky, young people everywhere who never get near a mine are wearing t-shirts and jeans, and coats with the sewn-in reflective safety stripes used in miners coveralls. It is a fashion craze - a deliberately engineered one.

Don't dare bring up the topic of AGW or how ugly and polluting the mountain-top-removal strip-mines are, of course...

LeftieBiker
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Points: 654
Re: Range Anxiety

PJD wrote:

"I was used to riding 30-60 miles on my motorcycle, at 50-60MPH. If I could do that with any of my scooters, I'd be happy. I can't."

My C124 could do 40 miles at 50 mph. The C130 could achieve the middle of your range at 60 mph. At any rate, the intended function of electric scooters is practical, day-to-day personal transportation. For long recreational rides out in the countryside, I agree that an IC engine will generally be necessary.

My commute is 22 miles each way, almost all of it at freeway speeds. It isn't just 'rides in the country' that are beyond my reach. I can visit my Sister 7 miles away on the XM - IF I use back roads for most of the route. Outside of urban areas these scooters are going to continue to be toys until they can go 50 to 60 miles at 60MPH, on real roads with hills on them.

gasdive
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Points: 90
Re: Range Anxiety

LeftieBiker wrote:

My commute is 22 miles each way, almost all of it at freeway speeds. It isn't just 'rides in the country' that are beyond my reach.

The new Zero 6kWh will definately do 30 miles at freeway speeds. It recharges in 6 hours and so if you work for 8 hours it will be ready for the ride home. The 9 kWh will probably do 50 miles and so wouldn't even need a charge at work, but I've not seen any reports yet. It's supposed to be good for 3000 charge cycles, so that's 10 years of commuting sorted for about 5 dollars a day.

Even the first generation Zero does 22 miles at urban speeds (not freeway).

My commute is 3 miles so I never have a problem. That's not luck btw, I choose to live close to work, it's no accident. If I go to work 5 days a week, my time is better spent travelling further on the weekend and shorter during the week rather than the other way around as so many people choose.

=:)

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Jason
Blogging my Zero DS from day one http://zerods.blogspot.com/

MEroller
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Re: Range Anxiety

LeftieBiker wrote:

Range anxiety is *not* a manufactured concept.

Actually I very recently had range anxiety in my normal IC-propelled car, as I was on the freeway/autobahn with no exit/intersection nor gas/petrol station nearby, and the fuel gauge had dropped precariously low :-) Range anxiety is indeed an eons-old phenomenon, just think "camel" and "caravan through the desert"...

__________________

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E-Sprit Fury (basis is the ZAP/Erider Thunder 5000) since May 03, 2011. Mods: Battery temp. gauge and battery heating (off the grid and off the battery), Kelly KEB72801X, reverse activated, luggage rack with topcase, HC Cycle Analyst, Emsiso BMS2405, 35mm² battery cables - repaired again :-)

QvR vR one: a Swiss package of pure understatement - innocent and to some eyes (from some angles) exceedingly ugly looks, but with raw and hardly containable electron power up to real 95 to 100km/h! And a literally rock-hard suspension due to a carrying capacity of twice it's unladen weight...

PJD
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Joined: 11/22/2006
Points: 1243
Re: Range Anxiety

Quote:

My commute is 3 miles so I never have a problem. That's not luck btw, I choose to live close to work

My commute is 5 1/2 miles, and likewise when my job moved from downtown to the outskirts,(where I could use public transit), I likewise moved out of town to keep the commute reasonable. When house shopping, I only considered houses within 7 miles of work, on a bus line, in a community with sidewalks and some semblance of a traditional main street, and a short walk to basic amenities. I know that in these days of underwater mortgages, many people cannot move so easily. But it really behooves people to consider a location with walkability and low-carbon transportation options when house shopping. Very few seem to do so.

And at any rate, the point of my past few posts is that exhortations to be "environmentally responsible" doesn't work in the USA. Only an ad campaign to make green living "cool" is going to work. We have reached the point where we can't dare use the word "green", "environment" or especially "global warming", it will be the kiss of death for the product or lifestyle we are trying to promote.

As a correction, the stated range of my C124 was not realistic. It will go 50 miles on a charge, but at an average speed of 35-40 mph or so. Very little suburban travel is done on freeways, or even 4-lane strips where I live, so the range impact of higher speeds doesn't come to mind.

PJD
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Points: 1243
Re: Range Anxiety

Why can't we edit posts? first sentence should read:

"...and likewise, when my job moved from downtown (where I could use public transit) to the outskirts, I moved out of town to keep the commute reasonable."

marcopolo
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Points: 837
Re: Range Anxiety

Range anxiety, but still want to buy an EV automobile?

Have I wandered into a time machine and gone back two years? Ever heard of that amazing new car from GM, called the Volt? With the about-to-be released Tesla S, you can travel 300 miles between charges.(Surely that's sufficient range.

Or you can treat yourself with the Liberty EV Range Rover with 200+ range and very fast charging.

But a whole host of EREV's will be released in 2012-13. making range anxiety, obsolete!

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marcopolo

jdh2550_1
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Re: Range Anxiety

marcopolo wrote:

Range anxiety, but still want to buy an EV automobile?

Have I wandered into a time machine and gone back two years? Ever heard of that amazing new car from GM, called the Volt? With the about-to-be released Tesla S, you can travel 300 miles between charges.(Surely that's sufficient range.

Or you can treat yourself with the Liberty EV Range Rover with 200+ range and very fast charging.

But a whole host of EREV's will be released in 2012-13. making range anxiety, obsolete!

Spoken like a true marketeer! Pay us enough extra money and we'll make your anxiety go away (never mind the fact that we created your anxiety in the first place)

The idealist in me wants folks to break the range anxiety cycle. Paul & Dave both have shown above average commitment in choosing to live close to work. However, the majority of folks live within 30 miles which is BEV commuting range without perpetuating the production of infernal combustion engines (that will end up sitting around barely used but costing the owners $$$ in servicing costs).

Yeah, yeah - I know - dream on...

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