3000W scooter falling apart after only 350km !!!

In your tag line you say "XM-3000 with BB Batteries". The XM-3000 from X-Treme has Greensaver batteries - so it makes me think what you've got is not an XM-3000 from X-Treme. Only something imported by X-Treme and stamped "Alpha Products International" as manufacturer on the VIN has the right to call itself the XM-3000.

Sure, it might be built by Chen and have arrived on your doorstep looking like an XM-3000, however, X-Treme is the owner of the XM-3000 name. So, saying that your "XM-3000 falling apart after only 350km" isn't really fair. It could be that this bike was built in a completely different batch from the XM-3000's. It could be that it was shipped via different shippers and suffered during the shipment. It could be that Electric Motorsport did something sub-optimal. I've no idea why your bike should be bad. I'm just saying we don't know - but we do know it's not an XM-3000.

That's also an issue with others who received prototypes of certain Chen models stating they've ridden an XM-3000 or XM-3500. They haven't. There are variations made between when prototypes were shipped and when final bikes rolled off the end of the production line. I also won't be surprised if there are differences between different batches of XM-3000's - just as there are with production cars from major auto manufacturers.

FYI, I have 1050 km's on my XM-3000 and aside from a sticking brake switch and a loose fuse have had no trouble. I believe ladderman has more km's on his bike than me and Zapdos has broken the 500km mark. None of these bikes have been perfect - but I don't think any of us would say our bikes are "falling apart".

Please, consider carefully when you post something like this. I do think it's good to post about the problems with your bike - you can seek help or warn folks.

But to call your bike an XM-3000 isn't right.

here it is.... I bought a Mountain chen scooter. I asked the forum if they knew what type it was from many pics. They all said XM-3000... YES i agree it may not be YOUR X-tream model. I am NOT saying XM-3000 are crap. I am only asking if anyone else has "XM-3000 type" scooter with the same kind of issues. I dot care if you sell em or not. YOU didnt make them did you? You bought them from China just like Electricmostersports.com did. MY point was that it is falling apart and I was simply giving out my personal bad news. Yes I knew the batteries had been changed. Thats part of why I got a good deal on buying it.
Again I would ask for some advice as to How to handle this issue.? Call EMS or maybe Mountain?

Thanks for any advice.

XM-3000 BB Batteries using 5 vector smart chargers in bike
EVT 168 4 UB12500 batteries using 4 vector smart chargers

The only people who sell the XM-3000 are X-Treme or X-Treme dealers. So, how about saying "Electric Motorsport scooter falling apart" or "3000W scooter falling apart"?

Ask the moderators to change the subject heading.

Personally, if I were you I'd call EMS. But, remember you got a discounted price - one assumes that was because they didn't intend to support it?

If you want help buying replacement parts - you can likely get them yourself via the X-Treme website because the parts will fit. Or drop me a line with the list of parts you need and I'll see if I can source them for you.

This bike is a very close cousin of the XM-3000 but it is NOT an XM-3000. So, please, be careful what you call your bike (and think what might appear when potential customers google it).

Some of us are trying to run a business y'know!

1902 KM on my baby so far!!! thats 1181.84 miles on xm-3000

mrladderman
72 volt mod http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4244-4000w-model-mountain-chen#comment-25513
xm-3000

Some of us are trying to run a business y'know!.....

Yes and you made that abundantly clear!

How 'bout if you let a rider share their mishaps and express their frustration and negative experience while seeking folks with similar experience for the purpose of finding support.

That's what this forum is for, so he's not out of line, however your pervasive attempts of "damage control" for a brand you obviously represent by seeking to "shut up" a member are.

I.m.o. a very sad testament of misuse of public forums.
Instead, how about helping the man?

GC

Hey GC...I think you're being a little tough here. Granted, he has a business, but he's been fair in his comments, etc. as far as I can see. It made sense to me that the brand be correctly identified and that is what John H established. I think he offered several suggestions to lone_rider.

Motoring in the Motor City

*yawn*

The real XM-3000 is by X-Treme. Just because someone buys directly from China doesn't make the scooter an XM-anything. It's a scooter from China - that's it. Because the Chinese are so driven to copy everyone else's things, this scooter could be from anywhere.

This guy's crying over having a bad experience with X-Treme's products - but this thing didn't come from X-Treme. His confusion on this puts him out of line and your attempt at playing the older brother to something you don't understand also makes you out of line.

Now if he originally said he bought an XM-3000 from X-Treme, then I would side with his comments and try to help out. But like a few of you people here have done, if you buy directly from China instead of going through the proper channels of importer/distributor/dealer... who knows where exactly the item has been, it's NOT and XM-3000, and you are on your own. This system is in place to help you from getting screwed. Navigate around the system to save a dollar and you've effectively cut out support, warranty and/or any quality control.

You screwed yourself. Period.

And, yes, some of us are trying to run a business so we don't need your help badmouthing an X-Treme product that we sell and which you don't even own.

www.BaseStationZero.com

Ask about year-end specials for V-members²!

I.m.o. a very sad testament of misuse of public forums.

same to you, ArcticFox

Let people express themselves, their stuff comes from the same factories, no doubt in my mind. Very helpful pointers for users, (of course, not dealers.)

This forum is for helping each other, not a megaphone for dealers. Build your own thread if you don't like that.
Something like: "Dealers who are miffed because of owner's constant complaining about their scooters breaking down"

It would be REALLY helpful to offer helpful advice instead of postulating from the high horse.

GC

Nissan cars are crap. Although I own a Toyota, both cars come from the same place, so Nissans are crap just like my Toyota. On that note, Dodge are crap, too, because a lot of Dodge parts come from the same place Toyota gets their parts from, no doubt in my mind. So your logic lets me say Nissan and Dodge are crap because my Toyota is crap. Does that make sense to you?

I don't care if he wants to "express himself" about something he owns. He doesn't own an XM-3000, and I don't own a Nissan.

www.BaseStationZero.com

Ask about year-end specials for V-members²!

Dude! What's your problem!?

1) I closed my original post with "I do think it's good to post about the problems with your bike - you can seek help or warn folks.". That doesn't seem to me to be like telling him to "shut up". All I ask is he doesn't call it an XM-3000. I challenge you to find anywhere where I've attempted to hide facts about the XM-3000 or XM-3500. The opposite is true - when I find out stuff like there's no regen or BMS on either bike I tell the forum. I don't have to do that you know.
2) If you look around on other posts I hope you'll see that in general I try and help folks. Ask strawhistle about that. I haven't helped him yet (because I can't yet) but I plan to when we can.
3) Yes, the bikes come from the same factory. But it's not an XM-3000. Posting what amounts to "my XM-3000 is crap" doesn't seem fair when it's not an XM-3000. Yes, I was trying to "damage control" because it is not an XM-3000. Have you got that yet. Repeat after me: It's not an XM-3000. He even bought it on the cheap.
4) As far as helping him goes - did you not see the follow on post? I suggest he simply calls the vendor he bought the bike from. Now there's a concept! If you want to direct your pent up anger at someone perhaps you might try them? I also offered to source parts for him - and this is where it gets interesting. Parts don't grow on trees. In general X-Treme brings in enough parts to service their bikes (the ones legitimately called an XM-3000) - if we provide parts support for everyone what do we say when we run out of parts for OUR customers (the ones that gave us their cash)? Yes, helping one person out isn't going to deplete the stockpile too bad - but how about at least trying to look at the whole picture?
5) Trying to "bully me" into helping him is dumb. If I'd read your post before the offers of help I might actually have decided to do nothing. It's not my problem. However, I did offer help. The point here is that your little rant actually detracts from getting lone_rider any help. The same thing happened about a year ago where a no longer active member suggested a calling campaign to "demand" a resolution for another member's paperwork problems. Needless to say I chimed in to say that wouldn't be very helpful either!

I've put my time, effort and money forth to help (because my time is money to me - remember I am trying to run a business y'know ).

GrooveConnection - I challenge you to do the same to HELP lone_rider. How will you respond to help him? Or do you just want to rant at me? How's that helping anybody?

BTW - IMO if you want to see abuse of "public" forums you should try Nova Scooter's voltsrider.net forum. That one's a doozy!

MODERATORS PLEASE NOTE:

I asked lone_rider above to consider requesting the subject line of this thread be changed (seeing as he was the original author). I don't know if he did make a request or not.

Now, given the negative follow on to the post I am formally asking the same thing - it appears to me that this thread refers to the XM-3000 in error and does so in a way that unfairly detracts from X-Treme's product. So, please consider changing the thread title.

I suggest: "My 3000W scooter is falling apart after only 350km!!!"

A few months ago I took a class on trademarks.. one factoid which stuck is that a trademark is an identifier for a source of a given product, and the another factoid is that a trademark owner has to defend their trademark or they'll effectively lose control over it. Have a kleenex anyone? Have any documents you've xerox'd lately?

Even though it's a business thing it does help us know what vehicles we're talking about if we properly identify the vehicle. Saying a thing is an xm-3000 when it isn't creates confusion. Period.

In the case of tissue papers they're all alike and the only damaged party from misuse of the Kleenex trademark is the owners of the Kleenex brand. But these scooters we ride are rather more complicated than your average tissue paper and small differences in construction of a scooter can make for diagnosis nightmares if we are confused about what bike it is we're talking about.

- David Herron, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, http://www.7gen.com/store
- EVT 4000, Charger bike (rebuilt), Vego 600sx (rebuilt), Electrified Electra Townie
- Lectra motorcycle

OK, dealers, help us all understand the business model, if you will.

I think we can all accept that the scooter in question does not deserve to be called an XM-3000. Point taken, point accepted. I will try not to put my foot into the same dark place that lone_rider wandered into!

But there is a more interesting consideration at play, perhaps it's a subtle point... certainly it is being missed in the current discussion. From the perspective of a potential purchaser, I have to say I'm also concerned about the underlying quality of the scooter as manufactured: especially given X-treme's drop ship business model, neither the importer (X-treme) nor the dealers get to do any QC or prep; what leaves the factory in China is what shows up in my driveway, the occasional loose screw, bad battery, and all (sorry).

I also see (virtually) the very same picture of a similar bike on many web sites; sometimes it is called XM-3500Li, sometimes it has a different name. These various units appear to originate from the same factory. Perhaps they actually do not. (yes, I realize the "3000" and the "3500" are different, but I've been shopping for 3500W scooter and so have been seeing those)

When the bike is labeled XM-3500Li, what does that imply about difference in manufactured quality or specifications? Does each wholesale purchaser of these bikes provide specifications or quality measures for the factory to satisfy? Or does each one buy batches of the very same units? (Although I have not scrutinized the specs for differences, no one seems to advertise on the basis of better brakes or a more comfortable seat, or other differences in specs that might provide a competitive advantage.)

I do understand the value of the layers of support, the documentation trail, etc, that using a formal network can provide vs purchasing direct from the factory. I've seen that pointed out elsewhere and based on reading here on V am more than willing to accept that value is being provided.

I'm wondering about base quality of the unit. Can X-treme actually get Mountain Chen to make them a better bike than Chen sells to R Martin or anyone else who has pictures of a scooter with a similar outward appearance? Or are you guys all selling the same factory production, with different stickers and different pre- and post-purchase support models?

Ed

I may be over-simplifying things here...

In the picture above, there are two different pills; one is called acetaminophen, the other is called Tylenol. Can you tell me why more people will by ones labeled Tylenol instead of hydrocodone/acetaminophen (if price is not a factor)? The same goes with cereal - why would people prefer to buy Coco-Puffs when there is Chocolate-Puffies available?

I have worked at places where a single item was manufactured for multiple locations. It was the exact same thing for all buyers, but one purchaser was more strict with details. This one buyer would call and complain about the smallest little thing (once complained about us shipping a box with different packing peanuts than the usual). So for for every 'batch' of items we made, we would actually have to pick out the best ones and separate them for this 'special customer' as to not have them call us up and whine about some small thing.

I'd like to think that Mujin Chen does the same thing - I know X-Treme has complained about quite a few things in the past and those things are slowly being addressed. Maybe Chen is picking out the better items from the not-so-better, maybe he's improving the whole line... I don't know. As a dealer for X-Treme, I don't care what quality control issues come up for those buying outside my line of products. In fact I hope they're crap. Because eventually customers will come to me (or JohnH.) knowing that I'm fighting for the best and whining about every little detail to my supplier(s). [I may someday get 'dropped' from API for doing so, but I know I'm doing the right thing by thinking of my customers first.]

The same idea might involve the cereals; you can have Coco-Puffs... or "floor sweepin's". Don't think General Mills will shed a tear if you find a bug in the latter.

www.BaseStationZero.com

Ask about year-end specials for V-members²!

Go to http://www.alibaba.com/ and type "Electric Motorcycle" in the search box. Now scratch your head over the long list of things which are listed there as "Electric Motorcycle", the frames and styling looking very similar, but coming from different makers. It's very eye opening. Oh, and you can find several listings by Mountain Chen.

Um, actually, ah, as I understand it, R. Martin sells E-Fun and X-Treme sources bikes from a different maker. However the company which makes the E-Fun is owned by Mountain Chen's brother and they used to be partners in a business but there was some kind of splitting of the way between them so that they are currently running different companies.

I gather that Mountain Chen's company sells bikes to several distributors under several brand names. For example the Zapino was built by Mountain Chen's company. As I said above, go to alibaba.com and browse for awhile. I believe what happens is the factory gets an order and they assemble based on the specs of the given order, then they get another order and assemble based on the specs of that order, and so on, and there might be several distributors placing orders from the same factory but each distributor could order based on different specifications and certainly each distributor has its own trademark etc to put on the product they order.

This isn't unique to China as there's many businesses doing the same even ones based in the U.S.A. For example I've got an investment in Sunoco, a company that makes packaging for a wide range of products. Generally if it's a packaged product sold in the U.S. the package has a high likelihood of having been made by Sunoco. Sunoco has graphics design people to help design the labeling and styling of each package, they take orders from product makers, crank out packages, deliver packages to product makers, etc, and it's hard to tell from the package that Sunoco or anybody else made the packaging.

I want to point out one thing ... in the debate over trademarks the original question has gotten lost.

- David Herron, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, http://www.7gen.com/store
- EVT 4000, Charger bike (rebuilt), Vego 600sx (rebuilt), Electrified Electra Townie
- Lectra motorcycle

I believe what David said is part of the answer - except this bit is confusing...

It's true that Mountain Chen used to make the Zapino for Zap. Guess who makes it now? That's right, Amoyee Chen over at E-Fun.

The bottom line is it IS very confusing over who makes what. Especially given the fact that both company's start with similar (if not the same?) base frame.

The differences between the EFun-D from Amoyee and the XM-3500Li from Mountain that I have in my garage right now is actually pretty large. The motor and controller - two of the three most important aspects of the bike are COMPLETELY different. My initial rides shows me that the EFun-D is smoother but the XM-3500 is quicker in accel and top speed. EFun aren't standing still (nor are ERider) - so there next bikes may be different.

So don't let the visual similarity sway you at all. Bikes from different factories WILL be VERY different (as different as a 3L V6 from Ford is than a 2L I4 from Volkswagen).

Now, in lone_rider's case and Ed's question is what about bikes from the same factory which also look the same? These are indeed more likely to be similar. However, there are variations from batch to batch. It might be blind luck that the "true" XM-3000's are better than the "XM-3000 clone" that lone_wolf has. Or it might be that ERider (Mountain Chen's company) sourced different components for various aspects. I doubt any of us will ever know the cause for the variation - but variations from batch to batch do exist.

I don't know whether API (the owner of the X-Treme brand) exerts enough influence for Mountain Chen to send the "best" models to X-Treme (AF - I actually doubt it).

Personally, I think it's likely that lone_wolf either has a pre-production version or one of the first off the assembly line. My guess is that EMS likely got it while they were in contact with ERider considering stocking their bikes. I didn't say this before because these are just guesses - I don't know the history of lone_wolf's bike.

Now, If the next batch of XM-3000's sold are as bad as lone_wolf's bike then it will point to "blind luck" that the first batch of XM-3000's were better. However, if the next batch of XM-3000's appear as good, or better, than the first batch of XM-3000's then it will suggest that lone_wolf has an early pre-production model and whatever woes affect his bike appear to have been addressed in the ongoing assembly of production bikes.

It is a confusing phenomenon when the bikes come from the same factory but seem to have such different levels of quality. ladderman, myself and Zapdos all have significantly more mileage on our bikes than lone_wolf has. Of course it's possible that there are other XM-3000 owners that have a similar story to lone_wolf. Out of the 16 bikes I've sold none of have been a complete dud. 2 of my original customers (received their bikes back at the beginning of July) have only JUST got their bikes on the road due to a long drawn out process that definitely needs to be improved. So, please don't think I'm trying to be a "company shill" about this. I know there are problems with the XM-3000.

However the data I have is of 20+ reports of general satisfaction vs. 1 report of absolute despair. This seems to me to suggest that there's something different about that 1 bike - which we know, and agree, is not an XM-3000.

EdInPa - does that help answer your question? Or does it just confuse things more?

lone_wolf - I'm sorry for your unfortunate experience. I likely wasn't very empathetic to your fate.

GrooveConnection - I apologize. I was likely somewhat too harsh in my response to you.

Thanks to David and John for their explanations. This was so very confusing to me when I started looking for a bike. The more research I did, the more confused I became. Several bikes looked identical, and were seemingly produced in the same factory in China, sold by different distributors in China and ultimately shipped by different companies in the US. I spent hours on alibaba looking at bikes, trying to figure out what the differences were.

I finally bought a bike from a vendor in California (scootersnbikes.com) that looks the same as the Skeuter and the XB600. It is made in the same factory (from what I can tell), but I would never call it an XB600. There are differences. The motor, the batteries, etc.

While I have had a very positive experience with my bike (actually bought a second one for my husband), and I have had excellent service from my vendor - I know that I was lucky. There are a LOT of shady vendors out there and "V" is blessed to have reputable and caring vendors here that actually do their best to help us navigate the mine field that accompanies this venture.

I have been watching the V is forum for about a month and have not had the urge to post until now. I own the XB600 (for about a month) and am thrilled to have it. I grew up with electrics, my father's business sold Cushman industrial vehicles and later Taylor-Dunn (you guys and your MOSFET controllers; we had resistors and relays the size of your fist . Oh wait...there are two brand names, both deservedly good ones. A brand is created and built by people who care enough to manufacture (or have manufactured) products to a certain standard. I must admit being impressed enough by my XB-600 to consider distributing the product in Colorado. I think the "missing link" is local sales and service support. It says on X-Treme's website that the product is manufactured in China to their specs and they have an on-site rep who handles quality control. Now, I know with this being bleeding edge technology, not everything on X-Treme's site has been completely accurate (due in my opinion to so much going on over there rather than any purposeful intent), but I do believe their quality in my experience has been solid, and reading other posts (with few exceptions) others do too.

I am thrilled to see that this thread's post title has changed. I'm glad to see the Chinese making these things. If Cushman or Taylor-Dunn was making them in California, they would cost four times what I spent...and I wouldn't have the thrill of gliding along silently, able to say hi to my neighbors as I passed and hear them respond.

We'll continue to see many growing pains...but we're seeing within these forums great innovation and leadership with mods and voltage variations. We'll let the Chinese do what they do best, and we'll get the machines here and do what we do best...push them to the limit and beyond.

What a great time to be alive....

XB-600

Thank you all for your perspectives, it's been an interesting read. Although I'm still not sure what the poor quality of one M Chen bike means about other M Chen bikes... maybe it is a question with no answer.

Apologies, reikiman, perhaps a better reference would have been to FalconEV who have a pair of scooters (3000W/3500W) that look a whole lot like the X-treme pair. I should have referenced Falcon, not R Martin.

WRT the cereal and pills, Arctic Fox, the big difference I see in your examples and the scooter situation is that when J&J, for instance, goes to a contract manufacturer for Tylenol, J&J provides the details of process and ingredients, test methods, and minimum quality requirements that each batch must meet. They don't say, "give me the best acetaminophen pills you've got."

This does not seem to be the case with X-treme and the Chinese factory. It appears (from the outside) that the factory offers a product described by broad specifications (and maybe a picture/prototype) and asks if anyone wants to sell it. The idea that X-treme sets the specs (as others have said) beyond fairing colors and sticker design seems unlikely, given that no one really seemed to know what would be coming out of the first XM-3500Li box until it was actually opened. Surely, had X-treme specified a BMS (as they had advertised) it would have been there. Surely if X-treme had specified regenerative braking (as they had advertised) it would have been there. I don't think X-treme are either lazy or liars, I think they posted the broad brush specs they were given and, basically, hoped for the best. I could be wrong.

One strange/funny thing about Chinese factory-driven specs is their misalignment with American expectations. I don't think a US company spec'ing out a high-end electric scooter would have done it this way: putting really expensive (luxury) batteries in an average-quality platform. (Sort of like using Italian marble to tile the outhouse.) (The counterexample is Vectrix, and perhaps they went overboard.)

If a US-based company like X-treme had gotten an opportunity to fully spec out the XM-3500Li, I hope they would have said to themselves, "well, we just added $1500 to the selling price for top-drawer batteries, how's about adding another $5 for a speedometer that works right?... how's about adding another $xx for some extra end-stage QC at the factory?... how's about adding $xx for a little rust proofing?... how's about adding $xx for battery conditioning" You get the idea. Yes, all the $xx's add up, but this is a high end, luxury, early adopter market that can and will bear that incremental cost. Who knows, maybe once speedometers that work right make their way into the Chinese supply chain, all scooters might end up with them!

Ed

Actually, from my perspective the Chinese waited until they could afford to put LiFePO4 batteries in at an affordable price then they did.

But they didn't. They went shopping for a bike to sell in the US and bought this one.

No it's not a high end market. It's an entry level market. For the high end you should be looking at Vectrix. If you're expecting a high-end bike for less than one-half the price of a Vectrix I'm afraid you're definitely going to be disappointed. I certainly don't position these bikes as "high end".

Yeah, and who knows maybe they'll put one in my Ford Focus or my Suzuki V-Strom (both of which have "optimistic" speedos.

However, in essence Ed you're absolutely right with regard to your "wish list" - all those things you mention do need improving to one degree or another. We will get there, it's just that sometimes it seems like it's one painfully slow step at a time!

I often tell folks if they want a main stream experience like buying a Honda or a Yamaha they need to wait a couple of years yet...

I hate to jump in the middle of something here, but are the dealers here asserting that a minor modification by someone to this bike, such as changing the batteries, suddenly means that the things the original poster complained about, the various parts that went wrong, have magically become inferior?

I mean to say, all these bikes come from the same place. Whatever dealer prep happens, etc, is going to have no effect on the basic hardware of the bike. It's the same parts! So why shouldn't he complain?

If I understand the argument, it's "this bike has been altered, therefore all bets are off". That's simply illogical on the face of it. If I am misunderstanding, if the assertion is that MC is stripping these bikes and totally rebuilding them with inferior parts or something, then please someone make this clear without all the sneering and disdain. These are legitimate questions and deserve a PROFESSIONAL response.

I like this place but this thread sets off my too-much-commercialism alarm. I REALLY don't like seeing a dealer trying to shut someone up, get thread titles changed, etc. That kind of stuff is really over the line for a place I want to frequent.

This question will seem confrontive but I really don't mean it to be so: can anyone PRIVATELY suggest a forum that isn't so dealer-heavy? Just for balance?

And to one dealer here: Your attitude towards this person just lost you the sale we discussed yesterday. Some of you have a lot to learn about what it takes to attract customers. If you bare your teeth so easily, what does that tell me about what I can expect from your customer service?

That's not how I read what has been said. It's not known how different is the bike in question. Just because the bike came from the same factory as the XM-3500/3000 doesn't mean that the same parts were used nor does it mean the same QA process was used.

There clearly is a fine line which a dealer has to tread in a place like this.

Clearly dealers have other agenda's than the normal flow of conversation. They have products to sell, and reputation can smear a good product, clearly. So clearly there's potential for a dealer to be motivated to manipulate things. Not that all dealers do so, just that there's a motivation to do so.

In this case it was clear from the conversation that the thread title was misleading. In fact if you go to lone_rider's blog (linked from his user profile) .. http://emumanslife.blogspot.com/ .. you see he's clear, on his blog, that this isn't an XM-3000. For some reason he wanted to call it an XM-3000 in the title of this forum posting.

- David Herron, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, http://www.7gen.com/store
- EVT 4000, Charger bike (rebuilt), Vego 600sx (rebuilt), Electrified Electra Townie
- Lectra motorcycle

I respectfully disagree.

Once again: If someone is asserting that Mountain Chen is getting the bikes, stripping them, putting inferior parts on them and selling them, that's one thing. Is that the accusation?

OR if someone is asserting that the rolling stock is pirated XM-3000 chassis and that all the parts themselves are different and came from China that way, that's different too. Is that what's really being asserted here?

I didn't think so. So it is certainly not unreasonable for someone to complain about the basic quality of the bike.

If the argument is simply "Hey, it's altered in some way, so it's not stock, so take that title off because it's hurting my sales", I consider that a very poor argument.

But if, as you say, it's REALLY not the same bike, and REALLY doesn't have the same parts, then of course all bets are off.

I respectively disagree with your disagreement ...

In this case Mountain Chen's factory built some bikes for electricmotorsport ... and they built some bikes for X-treme Scooters. It's not known whether the parts or other specifications used for both orders were the same, or not.

It's obvious that the delivery packaging was very different ... whatever that's worth.

"Altered in some way" would imply that this bike started out as an XM-3000 and then was modified. Seems to me a different process was followed. Namely that the factory got an order from electricmotorsport, assembled some bikes for that order, and shipped them to Oakland. Then later the factory got an order from API for XM-3000's, assembled those, and shipped them to the R&L for delivery throughout the U.S. The question is, were the two orders assembled the same way, were they following the same procedures, using the same parts, etc?

Obviously none of us know how different this bike in question is from the "proper" XM-3000 ...

On the other hand your argument reminds me of a leather business card case I have that says Gucci on the front .. it even came with a proper certificate of authenticity claiming to be a real honest to goodness Gucci. But my Chinese friend who bought this for me in China, she said up front this was a fake Gucci. It's a very nice business card case and at the same time whoever made that thing is misusing the trademark.

Maybe lone_rider's bike is identical to an XM-3000. Okay, but does that mean it's okay to misuse the XM-3000 trademark when on his own blog he's clear in stating it's not an XM-3000?

- David Herron, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, http://www.7gen.com/store
- EVT 4000, Charger bike (rebuilt), Vego 600sx (rebuilt), Electrified Electra Townie
- Lectra motorcycle

Hi Sundog,

I don't know if you were referring to me about a sale discussed? I don't think you were. I know that on the one hand you might be trying to be discreet by not mentioning names - but you also confuse the matter when you are not specific.

If you look above I apologize to GrooveConnection for "blasting him" after he "blasted me". You're right it wasn't professional. I also apologize to lone_wolf for not being very empathetic to his troubles. In that post above that closes with those apologies I put forth my theory about lone_wolf's bike - I believe the differences he sees are due to "batch" to "batch" variances during production. As we get more XM-3000's from later batches we will see if there's a trend towards more reliability or less reliability. If we see better reliability over time then this seems to point (a long with the rest of the history of the bike) that he has an early model and that later models are more reliable. If we see less reliability over time then it says us first XM-3000 owners (with a combined 1000's of kms on our bikes) just got lucky.

I think a key point is no one really knows how much the same or how different they are. And, because no one really knows I think calling it an XM-3000 is a bad idea. If X-Treme wanted to be aggressive they could likely try and protect their brand name. Rather than make any threats whatsoever (and that's not a veiled threat - I am NOT going to take this in that direction) I asked lone_wolf to consider making a request for a different thread name. When the thread remained active I then exercised my right as a member of the community and asked the moderators to change the thread name. They agreed.

You and reikiman are correct - there's a fine line to tread for me (and others) between being a valuable member of the community and being "just a dealer trying to make sales". I hope if you look at my other posts that you will be able to decide I fall into the first category not the second. Heck, I even attempt to clear up confusion about missing features - there were folks convinced that there was regen on the bike and a BMS on the XM-3500 despite evidence to the contrary. I'm one of the few dealers who also ride the product on a regular basis.

I've learned my lesson though, next time something like this happens I will be a little more circumspect about making any comment at all. The last thing I want to do is to "shut someone up" and the second to last thing I want to do is to drive a person like you away from using these forums because of "over commercialization".

Please (1) accept my apology & (2) read my post regarding batch variances and decide whether it has merit or not.

Ah, here we arrive at the crux of the biscuit! Protection of the trademark.

I certainly understand that argument, from the dealer's point of view... but from a scooter buyer's point of view, "who cares?" Meaning that I decided this morning that my wife's XB600 isn't enough for me and I need the XM3000 when I buy my bike next month, so I want to see what OWNERS think about it. I don't care if someone's trying to sell it as a Honda Silverwing. I'm interested in the owner's experience with the HARDWARE and how it will relate to me.

So: Different motivations. From a dealer point of view, it may be an abomination from Hell. To me, to someone only interested in "is this a good machine or not", I couldn't care less what name is on it or who "modified" it.

But I think I want one anyway, heh heh. Long as I can get one of the good ones, that haven't had some dastardly malefactor busily at work swapping shocks and brake switches with inferior ones...

We've gone from "That isn't an XM-3000" to "It may be a different lot", lol... and sorry, but the idea of X-Treme being the INSTIGATOR of lawsuits is pretty humorous...

Excuse my interruption, carry on!

Of course you do. We're all going to make decisions on what we know at any given time. I read these forums for weeks before buying my XB-600. And I bought it based on being an informed buyer. But I quickly learned there were differences between similar looking vehicles.

If I were a dealer (still thinking about becoming one) I would pray that everyone who bought from me had studied these forums before buying. A fully informed customer is the best one to have.

All I would want is for the information to be accurate...

Bernie

XB-600

I think you proved my point.

To someone who wants to buy an XM-3000 (or whatever) don't you want to know that it's a proper XM-3000? If any schmuck can call their knock-off whatever they want .. e.g. Joe's Garage could decide, hey this EV thing is taking off, the XM-3000 is a highly well known brand, so let's make a bike, call it the XM-3000 and nobody will know the difference ... That's essentially what the fake Gucci makers do, right? Suppose the knock-off XM-3000 is deficient and breaks down or maybe instead of LiFePO batteries they use Li-COBOLT and then the battery pack explodes and kills people? X-treme would be tarnished because Joes Garage made a fake XM-3000.

Further you as the purchaser, if you can't know for sure that the trademark is a proper identifier, how can you know whether a particular vendor of vehicles that claim to be "XM-3000" are proper ones or not? Maybe Joe's Garage is a proper dealer of X-treme scooters and those things he says are XM-3000's are indeed proper XM-3000's? If the trademark has no weight, then how would you be able to tell the difference? But if the trademark does have weight, then you can be assured that a bike labeled XM-3000 is indeed one and has all the "quality" they're known to have (or as the case may be, known to not have).

- David Herron, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, http://www.7gen.com/store
- EVT 4000, Charger bike (rebuilt), Vego 600sx (rebuilt), Electrified Electra Townie
- Lectra motorcycle

Duplicate deleted.

Err, OK - you seem to think that a different lot is so minor a difference as to be laughable. At least I think that's what your edit means. Time will tell if the early bike that lone_wolf has is an anomaly (my theory), or is representative of the whole line of bikes coming out of Chen's factory (which I think is your theory). You also seem to think trademark protection is just a joke.

Perhaps you can riddle me this: Why do folks like you and GrooveConnection appear to get upset when you don't get "professional" responses but then wish to belittle the responses that don't match to what you want to hear? If you continue to post snippy little posts like the above then don't be surprised if "dealers" respond in kind.

Please don't order from me - I think I have a good relationship with all of my customers. However, I'm pretty fed up with the "X-Treme is evil" vibe that your post seems to suggest. I just don't need the headache of dealing with someone with a poor view of the company buying one of their products.

I wish you well, and if you want to do business with me perhaps we can try operating from a basis of mutual trust and respect? If you wish to set up an adversarial tone then I don't need the business thanks.

riekiman wrote:

Maybe trademark vs factory is related to what I've been trying to come to grips with... Bear with me as I try to think it through.

The trademark brings some assurance of consistency of product (leaving aside John's batch-to-batch variation).
Differing trademarks on two different M Chen scooters are a sign that the parts used might be different because the different importers could be reselling different models. There appears to be no way of divining whether the components are different between (apparently) corresponding models carrying different trademarks, short of buying one of each and dissecting them.

Factory of origin, though, seems to drive the quality of the assembly and of the design across all trademarks based on the same base model, since one importer is not likely to be able to cajole M Chen (not trying to pick on you, Mr. Chen) to make their scooters "better" than those he sells to someone else.

So the impact on quality of an "improper" XM-3000 depends on how fake it is... Different factory? or different importer's stickers?

And to bring the discussion back to lone_rider's initial laments, it may be that the quality issues he sees are factory-of-origin based issues that may be expected to be seen in other scooters from the same factory -- in which case the concern might apply to the XM-3000 as well as to his bike. But the quality issues may instead be issues related to the particular assemblage of parts of which his bike was composed, if his bike were a different actual model or an early prototype. I wonder if there is some truth to both of these possibilities.

Ed

Well, none of this conversation would likely have happened if lone_wolf had said "My Mountian Chen built 3000W motor scooter is falling apart". I'm pretty sure that it does come from the same factory. No one is really debating that (I don't think?).

or an early bike off the end of the production line while they were "debugging" that production line.

My first reason for posting is in essence just saying "please don't use 'XM-3000' as a shorthand for a 'Mountian Chen built 3000W motor scooter'". (And, lone_wolf was right in his reply - I didn't actually offer any help or advice - that came next).

Later postings are attempting to answer at least three different questions:
(1) The validity of someone trying to protect a brand / trademark / reputation for a bike from the same factory as lone_wolf's.
(2) If there are valid reasons why one might expect different quality from a bike from the same factory.
(3) Is the XM-3000 a good quality bike?

To look at #3 a little more:
Do you remember when the Z-20 and R-20 were released? I think it's accurate to say we saw more people complaining about failures and problems than we saw saying "my bike works OK" (many of those folks bikes are now working, I think - but that's not the point here). With the release of the XM-3000 I believe we've seen less issues and more "my bike works OK".

Yes, I am biased (as are a lot of people - but worry about agendas not biases). I've been watching closely because if there were common failure modes I wanted to be able to be quick to respond with solutions where possible. Things seem pretty much OK to me. Enough for me to recommend this product to friends and families as well as strangers who call me up and talk to me about it...

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you guys... really, I'm not. If you are hearing that in what I write, please chalk it up to frustration at the overall situation: a compelling idealized product (road-practical ev; (marginally) affordable price) that I'd like to have NOW providing the "pull", but the risk of poor quality pushing back against the ideal and saying NOT YET. Neither gas nor vectrix are compelling alternatives, for different reasons.

I don't claim to know all that much about evs or chinese factories, and I'm happy to be told my dearly held assumptions are wrong. But expressing my bad assumptions is not an attack on any of you. I have learned a lot from your various perspectives, and it appears I've got still more to learn!

(though I did know the $5 speedometer crack would be poking at you a bit, John... sorry)

Ed

Ed - I've not felt bad about any of the posts you've made. If I seem over defensive (most likely I am) then I apologize. The reply to your $5 speedo crack was my own poor attempt at humor!

However, the things that do "poke at me" the most are the attitudes of folks like GrooveConnection and SunDog - and it's entirely possible I'm out of line with my point of view. But occasionally I get fed up with all the Mountain Chen and/or X-Treme digs that get put out there.

FYI, the only place where I think you are "off base" with your assumption is that you see this as a "luxury / high end item" and I see it as an "entry level item" (from my perspective the luxury version is called the Vectrix and costs $5,000 more).

Your assumptions about quality are not unreasonable. There is a good chance that the quality of ERider's bikes are variable and that me, ladderman and zapdos got lucky and lone_wolf got unlucky. However, there's also a chance that lone_wolf got an early version (he did pay a bargain price for it as well).

So, perhaps your odds of a good one are 3 to 1? Or 20 to 1? Or something completely different, I don't know. At some point "you pays your money and you takes your chance". In your situation it might well be best to wait longer. Or the risk and cost might be outweighed by your own personal benefit. Or not.

I'd be happy to chat more with you about the pros and cons and what you can do to mitigate the cons.

From X-treme's website:

4. Can I put my own name on the scooters we buy from you?
If you order by the container, we can specially make the scooters custom with any name you choose. We offer this at no additional charge. You would need to provide us with your art work only. We only offer this if you order by the full container. Containers come in 20' - 40' & 40'HQ sizes. Each container comes with free 2% spare parts to you.

I would think that art work is the only logical change that is done to the scooters. The change is done at the China factory. Maybe I am missing something but why would Chen install inferior parts on a similar scooter that still has to pass US safety regulations? If you correlate an xm-3000 and some other badge engineered scooter to a Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe you should safely assume that both items should have similar quality. The Vibe is a Matix with a different name and looks. Maybe the quality of the carpeting is inferior but the major components would be equal in quality. Why would a differently named scooter from Chen's factory be of a terrible quality? Answer is it won't. My opinion is that just like all wonderful Toyota has a few lemons on occasion, Chen creates a few lemons also.

My personal experience is with an xb-600. It had excellent quality but the replacement controller I ordered from X-treme directly looked like it came off a salvaged xb-600. It worked but it got me thinking that there are plenty of lemons being produced or returned.

Bear in mind that "scooter" is a much overused term. X-Treme started out selling little stand up scooters and have progressed into selling motor scooters. They sell both gas motor scooters (blech) and electric motor scooters (my favorite form of transportation!). AFAIK, the above quote from their site is about the little scooters not the motor scooters.

So, I don't think that quote really illustrates much.

However, the rest of your post is likely spot on. I don't think lone_wolf's bike was purposefully built with different spec components. And I don't think X-Treme does major work on their bikes (either here or in China).

What I think lone_wolf has is an early bike - likely an early prototype or sample. Mountain Chen likely sold it to EMS while they were contemplating stocking and selling them. (You too can buy a bike direct from Chen this way). EMS has since decided to "step up" into motorcycles (see lone_wolf's blog) and so decided to sell this one model they have. They sold it at a discounted price to lone_wolf. To me that indicates "buyer beware".

What others think is that I and others who report better experiences with our XM-3000 labeled bikes just got lucky.

We all have Mountain Chen bikes. He has just one factory. The conundrum is why are our Mountain Chen bikes apparently better than lone_wolf's?

JDH,
I don't see why x-treme won't change the artwork on any of the other models. If doing this is profitable they would be foolish not to and after looking at the container price lists there is plenty of markup on the high end scooters to make it worthwhile to rebadge.
After re-reading the problems lonerider is having (micro-switch, shocks, center-stand) it seems like he did buy a heavily used dealer sample. I would liken it to buying a Hertz used rental car. The car may be 2 years old but it would have been abused for those two years. I would guess the odometer may even have been replaced on his scoot which would be worrisome. Lonerider would know if the frame or other major components looked used or aged.
The parts that are faulty are normal wear items that seem to have inferior metal. I can attest that the bolts and screws used on my xb-600 are too low a quality for 20mph. Same is true on my 32mph GreenEmotor (A. Chen factory)Ecruiser220. If the same quality hardware is used on a 50mph scooter I would recommend having all parts replaced with quality stuff. The bolts, nuts, and screws on my scooters are partly what steered me away from a Chinese product capable of 50+mph.
New batteries, deteriorating parts, missing branding all shout out used and abused demo model to me. What interests me is this scooter may be an example of what one of these scooters will be like at the end of a battery life cycle. If you have scooters with 5,000+ miles on them i would be interested to know the service histories.