Walmart Schwinn Point Beach Project Bicycle
Starting with an EV Warrior motor setup and a mountain bike, I ended up with a Wilderness Energy hub motor on a Schwinn Point Beach from Walmart. Below is a link to pictures of the bike with some of the technical information about it. The current setup is the fourth iteration of batteries and battery containers.
I started with UPS batteries and migrated to LiFePo4 batteries. The UPS batteries failed to provide 11 miles of transport after 100 charges. At that rate, if the batteries are replaced, the battery cost is $.20 per mile. The total mileage for the $200 set of batteries was around 1,000 miles. Add in the cost of the bike, the tires, the battery containers constructed for the bike and the cost goes up even more.
The LiFePo4 batteries will be far less expensive over the life of the bike. That is the only way to go in my opinion. They just cost a lot up front.
Here is the link to pictures and a bit of technical information about the project:
http://www.dcbnet.com/Bicycle/
27 mph out of the bl at 48v is not bad. Is that faster than the sla's? Using lifpo4, my total ebike costs are estimated at 10 cents a mile, it's the lifepo4 that makes it cheap. I hope to see 30,000 miles out of mine. I expect that will be several bikes down the road.
Part of what was making my costs so cheap was buying bikes for 10-50 bucks and putting together a good bike out of the parts. Still, It looks like I'll go through a lot of tires and brake pads each year, so It may end up higher. I'm getting a lot of good components off of 10 buck bikes though, like brakes, cranks, bottom brackets etc, to keep a bike running for thousands of miles. I won't ever have to go pay a bunch to replace a bent rim or anything like that. Motors are another story, I'm on my second one allready.
How many miles did you get out of your first motor? What was the make/model of the motor?
I've been running the WE bd 36. thats the brushed one you can't get anymore. I cooked one in 400 miles by riding it for a full hour at full throttle in 105 F heat every afternoon. Now I kinda know the heat envelope for these hub motors is around 95F or lower, or you need to ride less than 15 miles uphill everyday to get home. I took the bus home till it cooled off some. The second motor, has about 1200 miles on it, and it is fine. I put about half the miles on it, either in the morning, or last spring when it was cooler. To get the bus home, I was riding about a half hour in the heat, and then getting on the bus.
I've been running the WE bd 36. thats the brushed one you can't get anymore. I cooked one in 400 miles by riding it for a full hour at full throttle in 105 F heat every afternoon. Now I kinda know the heat envelope for these hub motors is around 95F or lower, or you need to ride less than 15 miles uphill everyday to get home. I took the bus home till it cooled off some. The second motor, has about 1200 miles on it, and it is fine. I put about half the miles on it, either in the morning, or last spring when it was cooler. To get the bus home, I was riding about a half hour in the heat, and then getting on the bus.
I'm building an ebike now, and hope to be riding it next weekend, if the parts get here during the week. I see that you're in Las Cruces. I don't think we hit triple digits up here in Albuquerque this summer. Still, I'm worried about the heat during the summers when it's in the 90's. Also, I live on the west side of Albuquerque and work on the east side, so I'm going downhill half way to work, then uphill on some serious hills the rest of the way to work. The ride home will be the same, downhill to the half way point, then some serious hills for the last half of the trip.
That will be taxing for the bike in the summer. The length of ride was a biggie for me melting the motor. One hour nonstop at full throttle was too much in 105. The other motor never saw quite that much heat, mostly 95 on down. The problem solver for me this summer was to take the bus half the way home in the afternoons. The big uphill is allways in the afternoon for me. I expect the climb for me is similar to yours since both valleys are about the same depth. You will need a big battery for that route. Uphill at the end of the ride is murder for ev's. It's kind of a long way even for cars.
The motor I use can run hot if the brushes are timed wrong, this may have been the case for me on the burnt motor. I just learned about this, apparently you adjust the brush mount untill the motor draws the least amps. But most likely the problem was my full throttle, no stops riding habit. I do tend to romp on stuff, and replace it till I find the one that can hack it. I hate having to baby stuff. Which motor are you getting?
There are buses that go from near my house to work, but I'd like that to just be my backup plan for bad weather, flats, etc.
I'm getting a rear-mounted, brushless 500W hub motor from AmpedBikes. I'll be running at 36V with 17Ah SLA.
I'm excited to see what kind of speed and range I can get with this setup. I've been reading up about other setups that are similar to mine, and it looks like I should at least be able to get 20mph on the flats and maybe 10mph on the hills. With 17Ah I'm expecting 10-15 miles per charge. I'd be happy with 20mph and 15 miles per charge, since it's 14 miles to work, each way. Any more speed and range than that would be gravy.
Too bad your ride is not flatter. You will be peadling a very heavy bike up the hills unless you ride very slowly. I found the more sla's I carried the further from home I ran out since the weight went up and the hills were steep. You may make it all the way for a time, but as soon as the batterys start to wear, you will find youself out of power a long way from home. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but that is a long way to go for slas, unless it's really flat ground, and no stops and starts. I can't picture an east west route with few stops. I know a few north south ways that aren't bad, but east west, lots of stops for the streets with number names. If you haven't bought batteries yet, you should consider a lifepo4, of at least 20 ah. The rub with ebikes is that even downhill they can be a bear to peadle without power. The cogging effect of an unpowered motor is very hard to live with.
One trick that might get you the distance is to use as little as possible of your power on the downhills. Put just enough throttle on to eliminate the cogging resistance and peadle on the downhills. You won't go fast at all, unless its the steep part, but you can go a long way without using much power. Then you will have it when you need it, on the uphills at the end.
What is going to screw you is that the uphill part is going to be when the batteries are getting lowest. It killed me till I got lifepo4. Uphill, you can expect to have about 10 miles of range. If the batteries are allready bought, don't kick yourself, just ride the bus as much as you need to to make it. I found it not so bad, and rode up the hill on the bus for half the summer. Another option I'm trying right now, is I put a bike rack on the car. So I can drive the car just to the bottom of the hill, and park there. Maybe all you need is a place to park near Coors road. If you are crossing at Montano, there is a place the ride balloons use that might work, or the parking for the river trails.
A bike rack I bought that goes by the name swagman turned out to be real nice. It's on ebay. It holds two bikes by the wheels just like the bus racks do, and is easy to put a big ol heavy ebike on to it. It's way superior to the ones that hang the bike by the frame.
A lot depends on how hard you want to pedal and how fast you want to go. I've recorded the energy use on three rides on my BL-36 bike, which should be similar to yours. I'm running a brand new 36v 12ah SLA battery pack. None of these rides brought the pack much below 60% charge based on the voltage drop at the end of the ride. My wife likes to pedal and rides slow. She burned about 0.3 amp hours per mile. My son doesn't like to pedal and rides at moderate speed. I like to pedal and ride at full throttle whenever it is safe. He and I both got a little over 0.5 amp hours per mile. In terms of watt hours per mile (the true measure of energy use) the numbers ranged from about 12 to about 18.
The brushless motors are significantly more efficient than the brushed ones. My brushed motor averages over 25 wh/mi.
I'm not sure if the batteries would behave the same when they get below 50% charge. At some point you'll start to lose efficiency as the voltage sags. Still, I think if you don't mind pedaling and go easy on the throttle you could make your commute with the 17ah SLA battery pack you've got. It will likely be drained well below 50% which shortens the life of an SLA pack. When you push SLA batteries hard, the number of charge cycles you can expect goes down and the economics of switching to litihum start to make sense. I typically run my SLAs between 60% and 100% charge and they seem to be lasting a long time, well over 300 cycles so far.
dogman:
I'm hoping that by the time my SLAs begin to sag, I'll be in good enough shape to ride home without using much throttle. I wasn't aware that I'd have to pedal when going downhill too. So you're saying you can't just coast down with no throttle? Yes, the batteries are already bought. In fact, I just picked up another 12V 12Ah battery and a 48V charger. I've been reading about all the people who were a lot happier with their top-end speed when switching from 36V to 48V. The hill on the way to work is Gibson. Google maps shows that I can get off the river trail (no cars) at Bridge and ride up Broadway to Gibson. From that intersection, which is about the same elevation as the river, it's 3.4 miles to San Mateo and Gibson, where I work on the Air Force base. Map of hill on the way to work. On the way home, the uphill climb starts at Central and Atrisco, all the way to Illiff and Atrisco, which is only 1.5 miles, but covers about the same elevation rise as Gibson, which does it over 3.4 miles, which means it's over twice as steep. Map of hill on the way to home. I saw that Google Maps added a "Terrain" view option. You can see the elevation change pretty well. It's about a 300+ foot rise from the valley to the two sides of the city I ride to and from. There's a post on endless-sphere about a user who bought an ampedbike kit and has a hill similar to mine on his commute. Link to "my ampedbike kit review" thread. The picture he attached is called "molin.JPG". You can see that the hill I'm going to be climbing everyday is pretty comparable. Link to intersection where steep hill starts to increase elevation dramatically -- Click on Street View to see an actual picture of the hill. You'll probably have to hit the rotate button to get the angle that looks up the hill. There's a bus that drops me off right at St. Joseph's and Coors Rd, straight from San Mateo and Gibson. This would mean I'd ride probably less than a mile to and from the bus stops. I saw your post on the swagman you got for your birthday. I'm going to have to add that to my wishlist for my wife to buy me for Christmas. We have a generic bike rack that rests on the trunk of the car that we can use for now, if I need her to come pick me up.
wakataka:
I'm willing to pedal if it will help my range, especially since part of why I want to ride is to get in better shape. However, I also need to get to work fairly quickly in the morning, since it will probably take an hour to get to work at a 15mph average pace. I'm like dogman, in that I'm heavy on the throttle in all my vehicles. I fear for my batteries based on how hard I think I'll ride. The efficiency of the brushless motors is one of the things that attracted me to it. It sounds like I'm a prime candidate for LiPos, but I have to show my wife that I'll actually put this kit to use with SLAs first, then I think I could convince her to let me buy some LiFePo4s. If I get 300 cycles out of these batteries I'll be happy. After these stop working for me for my commute, my plan is to buy some LiFePo4s for me, and to give my wife the old SLAs for riding with me on the weekends on some short rides.
Wilderness Energy:
You said your batteries failed to provide 11 miles of transport after 100 charges. How many miles were you getting when the batteries were new? What was the voltage and Ah rating?
I'm hoping that by charging the batteries as soon as I get to work, and as soon as I get home, I'll extend the life of these batteries. The reason I went with 17Ah batteries is because I don't want to exhause the batteries at the end of my trip. It looks like people with less than 12Ah don't have enough power to make a 15 mile trip without taxing their batteries. I looked at higher capacity batteries, but the weight and price kept me from going past 17Ah. I really wanted to start off with LiFePo4s, but I was looking at $500 for a decent pack, and that would have been a lot harder sell to the wife than the $150 I spent on the 48V 17Ah SLAs. I'll probably be creating my own thread, so I don't end up hijacking someone's thread, if I haven't done so already. I'll be taking pictures and posting data from my rides, including elevation data from my GPS. If any of you are on endless-sphere, I'm sure you'll see me on there too.
Maybe I spoke too soon, the valley is much flatter on the south end. I kinda assumed you might live in Rio Rancho, and that hill is taller and steeper than you will have. My climb on the way home is 700 vertical feet, so it kicked my batteries butt.
I have the BD motor which is notoriously bad for range, and I could never get more than 8 miles out of the 12 ah batteries uphill at either 36 or 48v. Downhill 80% on the way to work, I would just make it, 14.5 miles. That was with new batteries. Since I got lifepo4, I still think I'm under 50 cycles on that pack. You will love a 48v-20 ah lifepo4 when you get it, you should be able to do 25-30 miles on one of those, full throttle. Since your hill is only 300' tall you should make it on the sla's you have as long as you don't drain em too much going downhill. Peadling till you hit about 5 mph helps a lot, and when the hill is steep, you will be able to coast, but the motor will slow that down from what you are used to.
Basicly the motor, when unpowered, acts like a generator, and resists turning. Just a smidgen of throttle will cancel that out, using very little of your watts. Unfortunately the controller doesn't support putting the generated power into the battery.
Do you fiesta? I'll be on the field the second weekend. Not bringing the balloon this year, unfortunately.
I don't mind having to pedal to help my range, especially on my way home. I want this to be exercise, but don't want to be sweaty when I get to work. That's my biggest reason for going electric. That, and the speed of getting to work faster with the motor.
I go to the fiesta, but don't own a balloon. I have a buddy at work who owns a balloon, so I'm going at least once this year. Plus, I have a 9 year old daughter, so I don't think she'd let me get away with not going.
Nothing compares to fiesta! Last year I amazed myself and flew all 9 days. I was really tired by the end. The last two years the flying has been amazing. Lots of trips to the river and good landings. I cringe at the thought of flying south nowdays. No trips to Kirtland for me please!
For Dogman:
You said/asked "You said your batteries failed to provide 11 miles of transport after 100 charges. How many miles were you getting when the batteries were new? What was the voltage and Ah rating?"
I used 20 AH Universal Batteries from http://www.powerstridebattery.com, 4 of the 12 volt 20AH batteries, UB12220. The 11.5 mile ride to work used about 6 AH on average, or about 30% of the capacity. Around 100 recharges, I was getting 10 miles or so at full speed, then the voltage of the batteries dropped to about 40 to 45 volts, maybe less at full throttle. SLA or AGM batteries seem to have a shortened life unless you discharge them to a minor degree. From what I read, if the batteries were run down just 20% per ride, which would be about 8 miles, they might have a 300 charge life. But I needed 11.5 miles per ride before a recharge.
The replacement LiFePo4 batteries should be good for thousands of charges with discharges of well below 50% each time. By 3,000 charges they should still have 65% capacity. I figure the LiFePo4 batteries are 4 or 5 times more expensive than SLAs, but should have 30 times or more life. If I get 3,000 charges, and can discharge them at least 50 to 60% every time, it will add up to 60 times the life (total traveled distance) of the Sealed Lead Acid batteries.
I got about 1,000 miles, maybe a bit more, out of the SLA's. If I discharge the LiFePo4 batteries 12 AH each time, or 60% of their capacity, for 23 trip miles, I may be able to travel 69,000 miles with the battery pack. From my reading, it seems that the LiFePo4 batteries can be deeply discharged without causing premature failure. The 60% discharge example suggests a 69 times increase in mileage capacity. That might be 20 years of bike riding for me. Check back with me in 2028 for an update.
My estimates of lifepo4 pack life are bit more pessimisitic, but I discharge about 75% If I get 1000 cycles, I will get 15000 miles. so about 5 years at 3000 miles a year. At that point it will still be a good pack, just not able to take me home from work if it gets windy, or a tire gets low. At that point it may still be able to take my trike to the grocery store and back, about 10 miles, for many many years.
Realisticly though, I'll be wanting a more powerfull motor someday, and will be wanting a higher amp rate then.
Lifepo4 can be killed by a full discharge. That's why you need a bms. And like all chemistries, lighter discharges will get you more cycles. At 50% dod, 3000 cycles is not unrealistic. That's one reason I keep harping to folks, buy the big one. That way you have a battery that lasts you forever, without you outgrowing it.
For dcbinc:
Russ, I too have looked at the Point Beach. It looks like it has everything that I need but that great looking paint job looked a little soft and subject to easly scratching. What has been your experience? Russ
There are some scratches in the paint, but I made them by rough handling, rubbing up against a rough metal surface, the screw drive slipped, a rock kicked up and hit under
the crank, etc.
Russ,
I like your toolbag and heavy duty rack... How did you connect the bag? Looks real clean... Also, remember where you got the heavy rack?
Nice bike...
Cheers,
Matt
Yea, Russ, Great rack. also what is the name of that seat and was it hard to find.
I like your whole outfit. My son went ape over your getup and now he is wheeling around on a Point Beach with a WE BL. While I was waiting for the Point Beach to go on sale at Wmart it went up 20 bucks. So it goes. And thanks for the info. Russ
Matt:
The rack is a Tubus LOCC rack I purchased from www.thetouringstore.com. They, or he, is in Fort Collins, Colorado. I found it on the web and called to order the rack. It was the most heavy duty rack I could find. It is a steel tubular rack. The aluminum tube racks do not have the weight carrying capacity I wanted. The Tubus rack has an 88 pound load capacity. The rack has a special clip to mount a German made lock that I did not get with the rack. The rack costs almost as much as the bike.
Before I changed to the LiFePo4 22 pound battery pack, I was using 50+ pounds of SLA batteries. I bent up some aluminum1" wide flat stock and aluminum sheet, used pop rivets to hold it together, and fastened it to the original Schwinn rear rack. The weight started to deform the stock Schwinn rack, and pulled in on the sides, bending the rack arms and the fender arms. I caught it before they bent into the spokes. That is when I realized I needed a heavy duty rack. Until then, I reinforced the arms that hold the fender to the bike frame. I used 5/16" steel rods and small hose clamps.
The bag is a Stanley FatMAX with a hard plastic bottom. It measures about 18" x 9". I purchased it at the local Walmart. I drilled 4 holes in the bottom of the bag. I used short round head or truss head phillips machine screws and nylock nuts. I used rubber coated 1/2" clamps on the rack, under the tool bag. The machine screw fastens to the clamps through the hard plastic bottom of the bag, using the nylock nut outside the bag, under the clamps. The clamps, nylocks, machine screws all came from a hardware store. I think it was a combination of Ace Hardware and Lowes.
Russ
Russ:
The seat is a Schwinn seat found at the local Walmart. (The Chinese and Walmart get too much of our money.) I was in the nearest (to me) Walmart this week and they had one of the seats in the bike accessory section. Could not find a seat like this at the local bicycle specialty shops. They seem to carry only the prostate wrecking seats.
By the way, I checked out a lot of sources for the WE BL motor. My WE was purchased from this site:
http://www.fiveflagsmotorbikes.com/elechubmotor.htm.
Russ
Hey Russ,
Thanks for the feedback on the rack and bag. I may want to popp the money and get the rack...
I just bought a Ping 48V 20AH battery. Ping is reconfiguring it to best fit my current rack. Don't have it yet but will ship in a couple of days... NOW I'M WORRIED.... A new blog (above yours) talks about a blown stock BL-36 controller by running 48 volts. From previous comments at this site, people were saying the 50 amp controller was good to go at 48 volts... I hope I don't blow mine... Is your controller a stock BL-36? What kind of miles have you logged on the Ping? If not stock, what kind of controller are you running? Arg.... I hope I don't get stuck miles from home...
Thanks,
Matt
Matt:
There are about 1300 miles on the bike. The Ping 48 volt, 20 AH batteries were used for 250 miles. The typical high voltage after charging is just under 53 volts after bleeding off the surface charge. The low voltage has been about 48. Peak watts about 1250, peak amps about 24.5.
For the first 1050 miles I ran 48 volt SLA batteries, with just a few of those miles at 36 volts. Inside the controller are FETs rated at 80 volts, capacitors rated at 63 vols. I have not encountered any problem. If anything does blow, I work at a company involved in electronics, so if I need to replace an FET or capacitor, no problem. The caps might blow, but it is not likely that the FETs will have any problems.
The caps are labeled with the voltage. The FET part numbers, found on the FETs, can be looked up on digikey.com. There you can see the FET specifications. You can purchase replacement FETs and caps at that site, too. Digikey ships the day after you order and their prices are reasonable.
The controller is a stock BL-36, purchased in May, 2009.
There are some posts in the forum about controller problems that were preceded by wheel wiring problems. Controller damage under those circumstances may be due to some issue other than over voltage operation.
Russ
I kinda regret I am only on the riding side of E bikes!!! I wouldn't know a fet from a diode... The caps I remember were red paper in a roll that fit my cap gun (way back in the day)... I guess I'll just hope for the best... I did look at the controller recommended by Scotty but again, uless its an exact swap, I wouldn't know what wire goes to what... I forgot which topic it is on this WE site but someone had a picture of the inside of the contoller (might even be yours). There was too much going on for me!!! I may be back to everyone later if the controller blows to find a workable replacement that I can figure out...
Thanks again for your kind feedback...
Cheers,
Matt
Matt:
You say you purchased a Ping 48 volt battery. Do you have a soldering iron? Is electrical soldering in your skill set? The Ping charger connector is a round, 3-pin type. The stock charging connector for the WE is an RCA stereo type.
You need to wire things right so you don't turn the battery into a DC welder. 20 AH at 48 volts is something to be handled properly so you don't weld anything. Someone at our office managed to get a wrench connected to a UPS battery and the case at the same time and it vaporized some of the wrench.
You don't need to be afraid of the batteries, just be deliberate and careful, and double check your wiring. If you have a friend/acquaintance familiar with wiring, don't turn away their help.
Note that the Ping battery has 2 negative wires, one for the charger negative, the other that goes straight to the controller. You might consider a 30 or 40 amp automotive type fuse on the positive battery lead. Install the fuse between the battery and the controller.
I would recommend that where you can, use the spade type push-on crimp connectors you can buy at Lowes, Menards, hardware stores, automotive stores. Use the shielded female type on the battery end, the male on the controller end. Yellow ones are for the heavy wire, blue and/or red for the smaller wires. If you must remove a battery, you will appreciate the spade type connectors. Butt connectors would require that you cut the wire to remove a battery.
Russ
Thanks Russ,
I do have a soldering Iron. I'm familiar with the in-line fuse... have had them on riding mowers and motorcycles. I'm thinking of the glass tube type that snaps together. I'll install that first (solder and shrinkwrap) before I do anything else. Guessing the fuse would blow before I burn down the house!!! I'm hoping that Ping will give me enough info to work through the connections in the instructions.
Just from discussion, I'm hearing that the negative wires are two sizes with the smaller going to the charger. I wish they were color coded like red for the positve and small black and large black... that would be easy to figure out. I bought a connector from Electric Scooter Parts that looks like an exact match to the controller. (Yay... it has a red and black wire). I plan on using it for the controller hook up. If there are only 3 wires comming out of the battery pack I should be OK... My other concern is if and when the controller blows... then you are talking lots of wires going multiple directions (throttle, motor, battery, wires not being used). Thats why I am hoping there is a suitable controller "out there" that has matching wires/connectors. If anyone knows of one that is strong enough to manage the 48 volt set up that matches the wiring/connectors, please advise...
Russ, I have messed with wiring (adding plugs and lights and switches in the house and garage). Have also managed to run 220 from my barn to the house. So, I hope to be OK with adaquate directions with the battery... The controller worries me more, if it blows....
Side Note: I'm sure you are right about respect for the amount of power coming out of the Ping... I accidently hit the metal screen door with the controler connector on the 36 Volt SLA set up bringing the battery in and out of the house(did it twice). WOW!!! Sparks were flying!!!!
Thanks again... I need all the help I can get...
Cheers,
Matt
Hey Russ,
Posted this comment on my Lifepo 4 questions...
Bought the in-line fuse set up today with 30 amp fuse. Also should have a dual matching connector for the hook up from battery to controller by Tuesday (looks like an exact match to the stock set up). I've installed a case to carry the new Ping on the rear rack (a gutted 1950's light steel tackle box with latch)... All I need is the battery... (being re-configured to a longer/lower shape) that should ship hopefully by Monday/Tuesday from China... Can't wait... In the mean time riding the 36 volt SLA in my newly installed box that does not require messing with the velcro... Sometime soon when all comes together, I'll take some pictures and post them....
YaahHoo... can't wait...
Cheers,
Matt
All this battery talk is making me hungry...
Wait, that doesn't make sense!
I read mention of the Universal UB12220 battery, otherwise known as the 40696. This is a good spot for them: www.batterytex.com/batteries/367/UNIVERSAL/UB12220
Always good service, etc. from these guys.
-V
Update on the Schwinn Wilderness Energy build:
Miles to date, about 3100
No motor problems
Ping battery V2 after the first one developed bloated cells
Using original Schwalbe Marathon tires
Using Slime tubes
New front wheel after hitting a curb and making the original front wheel oval in shape
New front wheel is double walled with brass eyelets, very nice
Using a horn-less seat form improved male comfort
The SLAs and the LiFePo4 batteries, when fully charged, provide the same top end speed. If the bike is good for 30,000 miles, as well as the batteries, then 10 cents per mile seems reasonable when you add in the tires, charging electricity, brake pads, brake cables, chain maintenance, wheel tuning and other maintenance.
At the rate the bike is being ridden now, it will take 10 to 15 years to put on 30,000 miles. I suspect that waning interest in the bike and technology changes may end the current affair with the bike (mine) before 10 to 15 years elapse.
Russ