Not sure if this is the best place to post this but here goes.....
Long story short, I am planning on upgrading my xb-600 to 72V soon.
I plan on wiring the batteries in a way that i do not need to remove any or open the seat cover and undo any blade connections etc.
I have 12V 48V and 60V chargers, the 48V is the stock charger, the 60V and 12V are much better in my opinion so I guess i will be going for the 60-12 split in batteries.
I am still undecided how I want to go about doing this.... IE.. DPDT DPST etc.
The other question I have is this.... In deciding on a switch to use, am I wrong in thinking a normal 12VDC switch will work fine? the switch wont be "seeing" 60V across it if it is in line between the 5th and 6th batteries that are in series. Only the Amperage amount should matter correct? If so, I have heard these bikes can run more than the 30-40 Amps that most switches are rated at. Does this mean I need to look into using a Relay along with the switch?
If anyone has any specific suggestions on what to use, links to an example would be great too, it would be much appreciated.
As far as the dc-dc converter etc. I am not concerned there, I already have plans for that.
The end product I want to have is this.....
TWO charging receptacles mounted under the seat area where the stock one already is.
Then mount a switch next to them to "Separate" them into seperate battery packs.
I would get and/or mount the switch in a way that I could not plug in the chargers without throwing the switch first. This would make it so that there could be no error in charging etc. and messing things up.
OR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If someone can tell me EXACTLY how to determine if a charger is "Isolated" without having the actual specifications to look at, then I would not need to separate them at all. just run the 60V charger to bat#1 - and bat#5 + and the 12V charger to bat#6 - and + respectively.
Any and all help, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated...
to test for isolation on the battery chargers,
get your multimeter, set of ohms
and measure the resistance between
live/active and positive
live/active and negative
neutral and positive
neutral and negative
if they all read off scale, then the charger is isolated
if any of them read below 1M ohm, then the charger isnt isolated.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Can this method also be used to test chargers with DC input?
I have a RT808D charger and would dearly like to know if it is isolated...because I blew my previous IMAX B5 in the attempt......
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
yes, this method also works for chargers with DC input.
isolated DC-DC chargers are a bit of a rarity though.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
I am unsure exactly what you are saying.... Live/active meaning the + live lead from the charger to the + and - of the bikes electrical system? or the other way around.
http://store.schumachermart.com/sc-600a.html
http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101156
Those are my 2 chargers. not overly expensive, so I am guessing they are probably NOT isolated.
So that then goes back to my question above about viable switches.
Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.
You can probably get by with a switch that's rated for automotove use, (12V), but bear in mind that when the switch is off, the potential across the contacts will be 72 volts, and at the moment you flip it to the on position, there will be a spark that files across the contacts before the potential drops to zero.
Also, I found that the best toggle switch that I could find at Home Depot, Lowes, or ACE Hardware had contact ratings of 20 amps, so I bought a double pole - double throw switch and wired the two halves of it in parallell to achieve a 40 amp rating. An XB 600 should be limited to about 30 amps. My XB500 with my shunt mod has a current limit of 25 amps, but if you did an un-scientific shunt mod, you may be allowing much more current than that. At 72V, 40 amps, you would be up around 3000 watts. I don't think that's very safe for your motor or wiring.
By the way, I have my original 48V charger and a 12V charger hooked permanently to my batteries, and when I want to charge, I simply reach under my seat and pull out the extension cord and plug it into a socket, which connects AC to both the chargers. Neither of the chargers has any current leakage when connected to the battery packs.
Dickey_b
Waste Not, Want Not
Live/Active is on the AC input side to the charger.
as is neutral.
they will be the top two pins on the power cord.
isolation means theres no direct connection between the AC side of the charger and the DC side.
at low power levels, isolation isnt particularly hard to achieve (it only takes a transformer).
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
AHHHHA!!!!
Thank you very much... that clears it all up to me!!!!
I plan to leave the rest of the bikes wiring hooked up to the 48V or 60V I am currently running.
The 72V would only be supplied to the controller/motor. Kind of like Zerogas I like to push the envelope.
If I happen to fry a component.. oh well, I will just replace it or upgrade it to handle the higher voltage. Zerogas has shown that the xb-600 seems to be able to handle the 72V as long as you take care of the dc-dc converter and upgrade the mosfets and capacitors in the controller to 100V. This, to me, is a rather easy process. as a matter of fact, I may even look into running the entire 12V system of the bike off of its own battery, like a 12V 7ah mounted in the front area. It wasnt until he tried 84V that Zerogas had any problems.
Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.
be aware that most motorbike "12v" components actually run at 13-14v.
running them at 12v degrades performance (particularly in regard to lights).
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
I have been doing these upgrades for years and I can only offer my advice. Dont try to do any fancy compicated stuff as it will come back and haunt you and cost more in the long run. In my other posts I recommend doing the following which has worked best with NO after effects.
1) Replace DC converter with 75V (dont use relays,etc)
2) Keep your system at 60V if already there or add a 16V Li-ion battery pac for 64V system.
3) Use a 60V charger which will shut off around 68V.
4) Replace controller with hi-amp 72V version (dont rely on 48V shunt mod controller)
5) If you are using a 500W or 700W motor and still want more, replace with a 1500W.
It is not suggested that I have all the answers, just trying to help you using my experience. Should you need more help, I offer it at cruisin [at] live.com
OK, my meter only goes up to 2M ohms. I measured both of my chargers and I got no reading, meaning that they are over 2M ohms. I measured both the + and - to both live and neutral and got no reading. So I am guessing this means they very well could be isolated. IF they aren't and I hook up the 60V to batteries 1-5 and the 12V to just #6, what would be the expected result? I mean would it most likely ruin one or both the chargers, components in the bike, blow a circuit breaker or fuse, or all the above?
Cruisin... I was considering just adding a 16V Li-ion pack to the stock 48V to run at 64V. I still may in the future, as I feel that would keep it a low enough voltage that I dont think it would harm any of the bikes stock equipment. That is probably the best, easiest, and safest route to go for upgrading these bikes.
What kind of price are we looking at for a good quality 16V Li-ion pack with a charger?? Also, I was looking online to try to price a 72V dc converter.
Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.
2M ohms is indeed isolated, for the purposes you are using the charger or.
at 60v the leakage current will be 0.00003A. not enough to worry about.
if you used two non isolated chargers, at best you would blow a fuse. at worst you would destroy the charger(s) aswell.
if just one of the chargers is isolated, then all will be fine.
if both are isolated, all will be fine aswell.
the powerstage on most 48v controllers use 75v hexfets. as long as you stay below 75v just off charge, you should be fine.
the caps on most 48v controllers are rated to 63v. you can run above 63v with reduced service life of the caps
when the caps go (ESR gets too high), the fets experience voltage punch through and let out the magic smoke.
i ran a 60v nominal system on a 48v controller (with shunt mod trick, pushed current up to 170A from 73A) for 15'000km before experiencing that failure mode.
as far as dc-dc goes, my solution was to only hook it up to the 48v subsection of the pack, rather than buy a new one.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
You can use your existing 48v part of the battery supply, but need a way to turn it on and off. Its a whole lot easier to change the DC converter so that it will handle up to 75v. Aside from that, the converter is self controlling in that no fuses are needed and it will shut off if over voltage, over amperage draw or a short. Resets automaticly. Cant ask for anything better than that. Some have used relays, only to have them short out and take out the batteries. Not worth trying to save a couple of bucks.