E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

21 replies [Last post]
oobflyer
oobflyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/08/2008
Points: 367

Check out the new electric bikes available in England:

http://www.emotivelondon.co.uk/index/home

The e5 has better specs than the Vectrix:

EmotiveE5.png

I sent them and email asking about their time frame and international availability - looking forward to new toys and more choices!

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Mountain chen
Offline
Joined: 09/05/2007
Points: 318
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

E-motive come from me,it is my new model - THUNDER scooter !
IMG_3896 (Small).JPGIMG_3897 (Small).JPG120kmh.JPGthunder 5.jpgJauke_5.jpgJauke_6.jpg

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

hi think these scooters do look nise but .
really for the money/ quality think that these scooters should be 110 miles range to really compeat?/
thanks kev

Mountain chen
Offline
Joined: 09/05/2007
Points: 318
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

Yes,with 72V60AH LFP lithium battery and kelly REGEN controller,110mile range would be not problem !

72V60AH.JPG

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

kevin smith wrote:

hi think these scooters do look nise but .
really for the money/ quality think that these scooters should be 110 miles range to really compeat?/
thanks kev

Kevin - not sure how you come to the conclusion that these bikes at less cost than a Vectrix need to be able to do around twice the range? I strongly believe LiFePO4 is a better battery choice than NiMH (sorry Mik!) but you'd be looking at a 10kWh pack or larger to get a usable 100+ mile range.

mountain chen wrote:

Yes,with 72V60AH LFP lithium battery and kelly REGEN controller,110mile range would be not problem !

Mountain Chen -

At what speed and usage conditions do you honestly expect to get 110 miles out of a bike with a 4.3 kWh battery pack?

Presuming the standard 80% depth of discharge means that you have 4.3 * 0.8 = 3.5 kWh to use. To get 110 miles that would be around 31.5 Wh per mile. I'm not aware of any bike that offers that sort of efficiency.

Your only hope would be at a constant very low speed. Nothing like real world conditions. Under these conditions regen won't help you at all. Regen helps most in stop / start conditions (or long downhill stretches - but quoting how far your bike can go downhill isn't terribly helpful!). So although regen may, optimistically, add 10% range it does so in a situation whereby the bike is using much more energy to begin with (accelerating up to speed ALWAYS uses more power than can be recovered with braking).

Let's pretend you thought he said 110 kilometer range - which is 68 miles. I still wonder under what circumstances you'll get that range. At best those are "marketing miles" (i.e. constant low speed, flat surface, lightweight rider etc.) not "real world miles" (i.e. average customer doing a mix of real world riding).

In summary:

Kevin - it will be a long time before you see a 100+ "real world miles" for a bike that is affordable (say less than $20K?)

Mountain Chen - please provide a little background to your mileage claims. Over inflated claims help no one.

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

MikeB
Offline
Joined: 04/14/2008
Points: 517
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

jdh2550_1 wrote:

Presuming the standard 80% depth of discharge means that you have 4.3 * 0.8 = 3.5 kWh to use. To get 110 miles that would be around 31.5 Wh per mile. I'm not aware of any bike that offers that sort of efficiency.

I have to agree with John here. A typical scooter/small motorcycle in real-world riding is going to use something near 100Wh per mile, or get ~10 miles per kWh. I strongly suspect that Mountain Chen hasn't found a way to triple the efficiency of his bikes overnight, so that number must be badly distorted.

I suppose you might use ~30Wh per mile on a electric bicycle, but then you have to pedal some too, and your top speed is typically 20mph.

__________________

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

MikeB wrote:

A typical scooter/small motorcycle in real-world riding is going to use something near 100Wh per mile, or get ~10 miles per kWh.

That's a great number to use as a somewhat conservative rule of thumb. Figure out the kWh of the pack, take 80% of that figure and then figure 10 miles per available kWh. I think it's a little conservative - but conservative is good (unless you like pushing your bike).

There simply ain't no substitute for the kWh capacity of your pack. It's the most direct variable that affects your available range. To calculate kWh simply multiply the nominal voltage of the pack by the amp hour rating of the pack. So, 72V60Ah (which is as quoted by Mountain Chen) is 72 * 60 = 4320 Wh or 4.32 kWh.

Note, however that the actual nominal voltage for a 24 cell LiFePO4 pack is 24 * 3.2V = 76.8V - so it should really be 76.8 * 60 = 4608 Wh.

All of the above might be kind of obvious to some - however, we often see inflated claims that just don't jibe with the pack capacity.

Having said all that - I do like the look of the above bike :-)

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

dp
Offline
Joined: 03/30/2009
Points: 145
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

jdh2550_1 wrote:

"Presuming the standard 80% depth of discharge means that you have 4.3 * 0.8 = 3.5 kWh to use. To get 110 miles that would be around 31.5 Wh per mile. I'm not aware of any bike that offers that sort of efficiency."

Kraig Schultz was getting near those numbers with his dustbin fairing bike:

Thats about 33 Wh per mile at 30 mph and 42.5 at 40 mph

Mr Chen, there's a great idea for you and others in the business.

If you want to build a bike with the best high-speed range, pay careful attention to aerodynamics.

With the right aerodynamics and further refinements, you can get well below 35 Wh per mile at 50 mph.

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

well thank for very little info and when i speek in milage i always speek in miles!!!!
shame. though . on my much loved VECTRIX the milage speedo is twice as small as kilometres and and can be difficult to read sometimes as display in RED.
in ENGLAND we use miles as the norm as 99% of vehicles use mph . and also kilometres sounds such a long distance when.
your trying to sell scooters lets keep it real miles ..miles its more acurate than kilometres well. no its not but doesn.t sound as good as miles.
anyhow all i can say is i have a scooter a e-max110s soon as i purchased it and put it together the following day i couldent wait to go out on it .
i live in west yorkshire and ended up in skipton and if any one knows these arears its out in the sticks i ended up covering 55miles on one full charge and in the poring rain
and the red light hadn't even come on well all i can say was it was a shock i couldent of belived it if i hadent of done it myself it wasen't flat thats for shoure i all types of gradients..
these scooter are really great little scooters and if they was made out of alloy and had regen
and fitted with lithium- ion i have no droughts that these scooters could exseed 125 miles never mind 100 miles thats for shoure.
i noticed that these scooters have a metal shrouding all round batterys i have had some ideas these scooters need some serious cooling so why not go back to basics and have
a ajustable frame for the type of battreys angle iron/ L shape alloy and for a manufacturer have a consumable part as a breathable type membrain all round but would breath and let heat out and cool air in and save a any dustor water coming in also this would save a great deal of weight .well must dash as had great idea.
kev

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

hi . i too do like the lok of the bike but seen in person and some of the fit n finish/ welding and wire connecters coulden't be any cheaper if they tryed.. and noticed that the use of o lot of
other cheaper scooter parts and think they need to shoe horn more range into the scooters or bring the price of the scooters down.
probbley will come down in time .
kev

wookey
Offline
Joined: 04/08/2009
Points: 90
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

It does seem from this page: http://car.pege.org/2006-e-max-s/consumption.htm that the emax 110S can do 60km realistically (at 4-4.5kWh/100km, or 70Wh/mile). So 55miles would need a 60V, 66AH or 48V, 83Ah pack, and they do do packs that big so it makes sense. I am impressed that you can manage that in hilly Yorkshire. There seem to be several models of emax, with 40Ah, 60Ah SLA and 90 Ah lithium packs. Which does yours have?

(And is there any chance you could find your Shift key for capitals - your posts are very hard to read?)

__________________

Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

To Kevin - I know you meant miles. What I meant was that perhaps Mountain Chen misread and was thinking in kilometers. I was attempting to give him the benefit of the doubt.

To dp - I met John Schultz and saw his bike - it's a well engineered machine. You're right he gets great mileage - and his design also shows what's needed to get those miles. And I stand corrected! He is getting very close to that efficiency - so close as to imagine that a bike could reach the 30 Wh/mile target needed to meet MC's claims. However, only with significant aero improvements. One of the many things on my to-do list is to fit one of Craig Vetter's aero fairings to a C130 (that's our bike with a 5.75kWh pack) and see what range we can get. Maybe this summer? (although my to-do list tends to get longer and longer!)

To wookey - perhaps using a 70 Wh/mile figure makes sense for a small scooter sized bike. In defense of Mike B's number of 100 Wh/mile that would seem reasonable for the maxi-scooter & motorcycle size. Now, as to which category to place MC's bike in? I'm not sure!

Just for grins (because I like calculating this stuff):

The above bike has 24 x 60Ah LiFePO4 cells. Which is 24 * 3.2 = 76.8V. Which is 76.8 * 60 = 4.6 kWh. Of which 80% is usable which gives a usable capacity of 3.7 kWh. With a usage rate of 70 Wh/mile at 30 mph gives a range of 53 miles. Given that the above bike can go significantly faster than 30mph, and given that energy usage rises exponentially with increases in speed I would think it reasonable to quote a 35 to 50 mile range for the above bike.

Ultimately, I'd like to see a globally accepted standard for testing and quoting EV ranges. For example one could adapt the tests used for calculating city and urban fuel efficiency. Or use whatever the X-Prize folks have created. That's another thing on my to-do list to explore this stuff in more detail.

This is an interesting and worthwhile discussion - but I still believe there ain't no way that the above bike with a 24 cell 60Ah pack will do 110 miles at anything approaching real world usage patterns. The reason I posted was to examine that claim. One of the key things to get a happy EV customer on the road and riding regularly is to make sure they have realistic expectations.

Many happy EV miles to you all!

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

marcopolo
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009
Points: 837
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

Yes, it would seem that even making allowance for such factors as, confusing miles with kilometres, the 30% difference in weight between Chinese and Western riders, and calculations based on the Chinese 30 kph speed limit, Mountain Chen's performance figures do appear to be very optimistic.

The only way to determine what the machine is capable of, would be to obtain a test vehicle and conduct a proper appraisal.

__________________

marcopolo

Mountain chen
Offline
Joined: 09/05/2007
Points: 318
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

Yes,The 110mile range based on 65kgs rider and 20mph speed and the most ideal road condition,we ever test this in china !

Lead acid battery of E-max are based on 20hr but LFP are based on 2hr,so the capacity have much difference with the same 60AH . Let alone the weight itself consume a lot of energy !

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

TO all.
Sorry If You have difficultys reading my Blogs But i Have DYSLEXIA ..
so will Try Harder when putting Blogs on Hear..
Well The scooter E-max110s Has 4x 12v 60ah slicon type. Year 2008...... .
Also i have been riding Electric Vehicles For over 23 years so think that i have a sixsence when riding.
.kev

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

Thanks.
Mr jdh blogger.
Nice responce.urm we need to pull together on this site..
As i am shore we could do a great job..of building a great scooter with a range .
That surpasses anything out there !!!!!!!!!!!!

Please be scared manufactures.?????

Or Why not loan us a scooter and lurn how to really test electric ,scooters and what a customer...
What might really need We have the best Knowledge in the world and do you know we acctually.
have lots of hills in england and bits of flat roads.too. so all i am saying is.
I may be willing to test some models ..
Come on guys.

kev

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

ARE .right ave just read your blog just after i bloged myself..

Deto you read my mind.. yep we need real testing and we acctually no .
What we need in a scooter !!!!!!!!!! .
1 NO LETS NOT BEAT ABOUT THE BUSH !!!!! range range range.

2 Reliability..........

3 Light weight not rider But scooter ..

4 Different switch settings for for fixed speeds..

5 MORE space for shoping bags and a standard 2 fit under the seat storage fo helmets..simple as.

6 On my VECTRIX i can very easily dubble the capacity under the seat area thats even not tuching the planatery fans ?????

Are you ask me how well not telling for the mo

GOD talk about inprovments i have loads of idears patents hear we come .........
kev

marcopolo
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009
Points: 837
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

Mountain chen wrote:

Yes,The 110mile range based on 65kgs rider and 20mph speed and the most ideal road condition,we ever test this in china !

Lead acid battery of E-max are based on 20hr but LFP are based on 2hr,so the capacity have much difference with the same 60AH . Let alone the weight itself consume a lot of energy !

Well, John and Mik, there you have it! An answer of sorts. Possibly this sort of specification may be acceptable within the PRC context, but I think as Mountain Chen becomes more familiar with western standards, his data may become more , ah.. contextually accurate?

__________________

marcopolo

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2007
Points: 2338
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

marcopolo wrote:
Mountain chen wrote:

Yes,The 110mile range based on 65kgs rider and 20mph speed and the most ideal road condition,we ever test this in china !

Lead acid battery of E-max are based on 20hr but LFP are based on 2hr,so the capacity have much difference with the same 60AH . Let alone the weight itself consume a lot of energy !

Well, John and Mik, there you have it! An answer of sorts. Possibly this sort of specification may be acceptable within the PRC context, but I think as Mountain Chen becomes more familiar with western standards, his data may become more , ah.. contextually accurate?

Mission accomplished. Manufacturer's claims have been well examined.

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

bigbluejlr
bigbluejlr's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/06/2009
Points: 7
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

hello Guys
I m a vectrix customer and I had the opportunity to ride this scooter in France
this scooter is very cool, powerfull, silent BUT nothing to do with a vectrix ( I get what you pay for)
quality, confort are not comparable and security is absolutely not the same
the breaks are too light and not powerfull, I reached 90KMH with it, you really feel insecured BUT to drive 60-70 is a good bike if you like cheap plastics.
the direction too light to drive 90 or must be a teenage fearing nothing but I m too old now to take this kind of risk
otherwise for the price it might be a good compromise at least for pure city trips !!
I have a video fot those interested
cheers

kevin smith
kevin smith's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/29/2008
Points: 444
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

Go .on then.

Lets see the video please.....
kev

bigbluejlr
bigbluejlr's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/06/2009
Points: 7
Re: E-Motive Electric Scooters and Motorbikes

hello
I will try but the video is in HD
can you tell me what size can I expect to upload??
thanks

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Short URL

eZip 500 Electric Scooter The E-500 electric scooter is ideal for speedy neighborhood transportation, or simply having some fun cruising around the block.
Customize This