Hesketh Motor Company HMC

Nice and informative site. It's easy to navigate.

This part got me especially interested:
http://www.heskethmotorcompany.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90

The bike is equipped with Nickel metal hydride or lithium ion array batteries that are very robust and if well looked after and properly maintained will give you long service.

Any ETA or any specifications about the battery pack?

Thank you!

Don't get too excited thinking that the Vectrix is getting lithium batteries as standard any time soon. I think what Mr Hesketh is talking about when he says'....or lithium power....' are the well known Zero and the 'Sprinter' which is available under different names e.g. Electro

Hmmm. Bettter but still not quite there. To quote an example from the FAQ page:

" The bikes have a capasity of 3.7 Killer watt per hour, assuming you pay a standard rate for your electricity supply the bike willnot cost you more than a penny per mile."

Hmmm. Bettter but still not quite there. To quote an example from the FAQ page:

" The bikes have a capasity of 3.7 Killer watt per hour, assuming you pay a standard rate for your electricity supply the bike willnot cost you more than a penny per mile."

good grief,
don't they ever proof read?

aside from the mixing of units, who here pays 1c/mile in electricity?

my V uses ~11kwh/100km, or 177wh/mile.

so to get 1c/mile, you would have to be paying 5.6c/kwh.

Matt

good grief,
don't they ever proof read?...
...

Or research and think????

How about this BS:

To get the best from your batteries and to keep them performing well you need to follow these points:

1. Try to use the full capacity of the battery whenever possible.

Commonly accepted fact is that this is the way to make sure your NiMH batteries do not last long!

What they need (for a long life) is to stay away from full and from empty as much as possible, with only the odd gentle EQ charge thrown in when really necessary.

Quote:
To get the best from your batteries and to keep them performing well you need to follow these points:

1. Try to use the full capacity of the battery whenever possible.

Commonly accepted fact is that this is the way to make sure your NiMH batteries do not last long!

What they need (for a long life) is to stay away from full and from empty as much as possible, with only the odd gentle EQ charge thrown in when really necessary.

Mik, Isn't this already built into the softare? At "full" charge, my bike never reads more than 143 volts, and when the bike won't move, it still has 120 volts onboard. I'd guess that's a long way from empty?

I've read many times here that one should not use regen braking on a full charge. In my daily commute routine, using regen exclusively most of the time, I doubt that I even add 2 volts to the system over a thirty mile day (lots of short trips). And when the charging is done, there always seems to be room for a bit of regen input. While I'm humbled by the technical savvy of this whole group, sometimes I can't help but wonder if we aren't over-analyzing these things just a bit. You are one of the best at applying hands-on, real world experience over simple theory, which often bring two entirely different results, so if I'm off base with my thinking, it's because I might have missed something earlier.

I think I tend to agree with you Moccasin. As a Vectrix Dealer who has run demo VX1s for some time I am now aware that the bikes sometimes do odd things - usually related to the way it has been ridden, the weather conditions etc...
Experience has shown me that it it often best to 1. not panic, 2. carry on as normal,3.show patience and 4. be chuffed when the system eventually 'sorts itself out!'

I think that it is tempting with anything technical to 'over-analyze' a bit....it is human nature.....but I am now able to be more relaxed about things and I find I am usually rewarded by letting the bike do it's thing.... :)

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Mik, Isn't this already built into the softare? At "full" charge, my bike never reads more than 143 volts, and when the bike won't move, it still has 120 volts onboard. I'd guess that's a long way from empty?
...
...

120V / 102 cells = 1.17V per cell. That is discharged good and proper! I don't think it actually lets it go that low. But even at 128V you have just 1.25V left per cell, also practically empty. And that is only correct if the cells are well balanced!

While the newer software protects the battery better from cell damage due to excessively deep cycling, when when some cells get discharged to 0V and beyond (reverse charging), the effect of regular deep cycling is still going to be what it has always been for NiMH batteries: A short life span.

The limitations imposed by the new software are nowhere near restrictive enough to give you a chance to reach 80,000km with a battery.

If you want long life out of your battery, then use only half of the maximum possible range on a regular basis. Recharge whenever you can (and the battery is at an appropriate temperature).

Do not expect full range after prolonged shallow cycling - do an EQ charge before any rides which will require between 75% and 100% of the range.

If you need near 100% of the range very often, then your EV is not suitable for your needs!

The advice by Hesketh to "1. Try to use the full capacity of the battery whenever possible." is dangerous nonsense. Very plain and simple wrong and dangerous! It will simply lead to every charge ending in a reduced power crawl to the charging station, which by itself is not safe on the roads and puts the rider at risk of getting killed or hurt. What this wrong advice will do, if followed, is that it keeps the Vectrix range predictable, and the customer complaints low, for the warranty period. But it will age your batteries much faster than shallower cycling.

The use of regen.!! is fine at most occasions as the vectrix really is quite wasfull in energy usage i/e if Battery is fully charged up .
and you live at the at the bottom of a hill and you goup it the chances that when you go down a hill later and use regen you will have wasted more power..

than can be put back in to battery pack.

so therfore you in theory you are always playing catchup..

but if pack is fully charged up and you live at the top of a hill and use the throttle conservatively i/e been very economical.
To get to this point then the regen dosen't work aswell i/e will not fully regen.

and will probably do more harm than good and will heat the pack up.
quicker. Than normal .....
kev

Do not expect full range after prolonged shallow cycling - do an EQ charge before any rides which will require between 75% and 100% of the range.

have i missed something? how do you do this EQ charge?

Unfortunately the vectrix user can't do anything to control the charging:
1- we cannot have an EQ on demand. We can only provoke it by riding it 12 hours!!
2- In short trips, If we could choose to charge less energy inside the battery (70%) would help to extend the lifespan on the battery.
3- In hot days, a lower intensity charge during all night long would prevent heat inside the battery and extend useful life of the battery.
4- In extremely long trips, the user would like to stress a little the battery in order to optain all possible range...
5-...

As vectrix is a computer, enabling all these options with the buttons or the brake levers should be possible...

Unfortunately the vectrix user can't do anything to control the charging:
1- we cannot have an EQ on demand. We can only provoke it by riding it 12 hours!!
2- In short trips, If we could choose to charge less energy inside the battery (70%) would help to extend the lifespan on the battery.
3- In hot days, a lower intensity charge during all night long would prevent heat inside the battery and extend useful life of the battery.
4- In extremely long trips, the user would like to stress a little the battery in order to optain all possible range...
5-...

As vectrix is a computer, enabling all these options with the buttons or the brake levers should be possible...

You can do all of this with a simple timer! (That's provided you have a later software version which is capable of 3A pulsed EQ charging; IIRC Antiscab and Aircon bought a Vectrix from Vectrix Australia (or the remnants thereof) at almost the same time; but Antiscab has the newer software, Aircon an old version.)

1 - turn of charging via timer before it completes each time. Once 12 hrs of driving time are up, the software will forever try to do the EQ charge at the next opportunity. When the time is right for you, run the charger without the timer for as long as possible. You will have a fully charged and equalised battery just before the long ride when you need it.

2 - turn the timer of so that charging stops once you have replaced what you have used! The battery never heats up that way. Just stay below 80% full SOC.

3 - Again, use a timer (and preferably a second timer and an ABCool) to pre-cool the battery at the time of day when cool air is available, then charge just before using the bike again. Avoid EQ charging like the plague, and even avoid normal full charging, when it is really hot. Adjust your timer(s) so that charging stops towards the end of the "CP" phase.

4 - Same as 1.

IIRC Antiscab and Aircon bought a Vectrix from Vectrix Australia (or the remnants thereof) at almost the same time; but Antiscab has the newer software, Aircon an old version.)

i have the old version? how do you know and what am i missing out on because of it?

IIRC Antiscab and Aircon bought a Vectrix from Vectrix Australia (or the remnants thereof) at almost the same time; but Antiscab has the newer software, Aircon an old version.)

i have the old version? how do you know and what am i missing out on because of it?

I thought you were discussing it on VisforVoltage before, but maybe it was someone else. I'm pretty sure there was a new Australian Vectrix owner recently, with old software, and Antiscab has the newer software. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The newer software is the one which allows setting of pre-charge delays by pulling the brake levers somehow during turning it off, I think. There is also some way of pulling the breaks so it will show you the battery voltage without plugging in the charger.

I thought you were discussing it on VisforVoltage before, but maybe it was someone else. I'm pretty sure there was a new Australian Vectrix owner recently, with old software, and Antiscab has the newer software. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The newer software is the one which allows setting of pre-charge delays by pulling the brake levers somehow during turning it off, I think. There is also some way of pulling the breaks so it will show you the battery voltage without plugging in the charger.

oh ok. no...mine does all that, so I must have the later software.

that was procrastinationinc that has the old software IIRC.

i agree with the avoiding doing full chargers in warm weather (causes balance and self discharge issues).

with a brand new pack, deep cycling isn't a problem, as long as its reasonably balanced (theres a sizeable buffer between 0.1v and 0v)
pity its tricky to know whether the pack is balanced or not.

the other interesting thing i have noticed is that its not all self discharge that causes loss of capacity.
even after an equalisation, the pack doesn't return full capacity until i completely discharge it.

as for voltages, my V has let me pull my pack down to 116v before (was limited to ~40kmh by power restriction then).
the new software limits power by voltage limit on the battery side, so doesn't have any step-wise speed limits.
very noticeable when traveling at speed and encountering hills or head winds.

i have had situations where it couldn't maintain top speed, but theres no tell-tale (uphill, gf on back, big headwind)

Matt

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(theres a sizeable buffer between 0.1v and 0v)
pity its tricky to know whether the pack is balanced or not....
...
...

Hi Matt, I made a mental note to ask about this when you first mentioned it a while ago, but then I got snowed under somewhere along the line.....cannot be bothered trying to find the original thread where you mentioned it first, so I just ask here:

Where did you get the info on the different stages of (over-)discharging and reversing NiMH cells from? How big is the buffer, where is it, does it decrease with age, questions upon questions.

I was hoping that maybe someone else would pick up on it, recognising that it is brand new information, and hoped that the topic would start to run and develop by itself, but, no such luck! Gotta do it yourself.......at least the asking bit!

So, where is the info about the different stages of reversing a NiMH cell to be found? You sounded like you had read something deep and meaningful, and probably at least partially correct, about those cells and what they do ... during their darkest times....

Just to get back on topic:

Hesketh Motor Company HMC,

Are pleased to announce that our new website has now been launched.

www.heskethmotorcompany.com

please visit it and if you are from the UK and have not registered your Vectrix for warranty then please fill out the warranty registration form found on our website.

Thank you,

Hesketh Motor Company.

Aaaah, thank Huey we are back on topic!

Where did you get the info on the different stages of (over-)discharging and reversing NiMH cells from? How big is the buffer, where is it, does it decrease with age, questions upon questions.

sure did,
in my internet travels i happened upon this document:
http://www.gpbatteries.com.hk/html/pdf/NiMH_technical.pdf

excerpt:

2.2.4 Polarity reversal during over-discharge
Most real-life applications employ multi-cell, series
- connected batteries. When discharging, the lowest
capacity cell will be the first to experience a voltage
drop. If the battery discharge continues, this unit
cell will be driven into an over-discharged condition.
When the cell voltage drops below 0V, its polarity
is effectively reversed. The cell reaction, at different
stages, is illustrated below:
Stage 1: Initially, both positive and negative
electrodes, as well as the discharge voltage are
normal.
Stage 2: The active material on the positive
electrode has been completely discharged and
evolution of hydrogen occurs. Cell pressure builds
up, although part of the gas can be absorbed by
the negative metal alloy electrode. Since the battery
is designed with excess negative capacity
(discharge reserve), the discharge continues;
discharge voltage is around -0.2V to -0.4V.
Stage 3: The active material on both electrodes
has been depleted and oxygen generation starts
at the negative electrode. Formation of gases at
both electrodes leads to high internal cell pressure
and opening of the safety vent, resulting in
deterioration of the cell performance if this scenario
occurs repeatedly.

i was wrong, there is no 0.1v to 0v stage (not sure where i pulled that one from :S )

but the 0v to -0.1v stage is definately there.

Matt