Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really depends on how you define failure, right?

53 replies [Last post]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION:
1a. If there are no conspiracies then who killed Lincoln, Caesar, JFK, etc ? (Congress finally even said belatedly decades later that the JFK assassination was "probably" a conspiracy, but they also never did any further investigation either.

1b. Everyone knows the oil co's including chevron owned Texaco are doing illegal price fixing, yet congress fiddles while the Rome burns (world is bankrupted); everything runs on cheap energy. The GM rave review EV1 was very very successful using Nimh Large Format (LF) batteries (they were 14 batteries in an H formation along center of car and along axles).. if was bad as GM has been saying for all this time since 1999 when they sold us all out to the oil mongers (when Gasoline was 65 cents /gallon); then why did they feel that they had to first take all the batteries out, then transport to remote desert location to crush, then chip into itty bitty pieces the cars.
2. Why did Texaco sue with an army of lawyers as you say "vehemently" Toyota for building the NIMH LF batteries around 2005? Toyota had to pay millions, but as said, the good news although much too long, is that the patent finally runs out in 2014 and the Hostage patent will finally be freed from bondage. If its not that good of a patent then why does Texaco keep it still in "prison", they only license the small cells to be made.
3. Name one Li-ion car that is still running on the "original" batteries for over 10 years as the one EV1 from 1998 and many 1998 Toyota Rav4 Ev's are still running on the "original" batteries. No offense but the oil co's are so rich (Arabs OPEC types and USA traitor co's ) that they actually donate to all the candidates that have even half a chance to make sure they maintain control of congress no matter who wins.
4. Why did congress recently put high taxes on low cost high efficiency SOLAR PANELS, but not on all the other Chinese goods? Why focus on ONE of the FEW things that would reduce the bankruptcy rate, and make energy cheap again? (Detectives are taught not to believe in coincidences).
5. Why do all major hybrids except flagging "Volt" * use NIMH? Even more amazing though they can't get the LF versions they stack the smaller cells to get the amphours needed. Why would hybrid car co's go to such lengths to get nimh in their cars unless its because it really is the best battery?
5b Did it occur to you that much "data" may be misinformation from oil co's to keep focus off that which does work and on that which only lasts 5 years. (Our friends spent thousands to put Li-ion in their golf cart and it was a total disaster, they went back to PbA (lead acid) and even those will only last perhaps 5 years at most. ) As said Honda was so desperate to get NIMH that they actually soldered over 600 D cell (flashlight size) batteries together to get their first battery pack for their "Insight" hybrid . **
6. Sure NIMH are heavier than the Li-ion, but Li-ion is very "fragile" and as said the guy who went to a Li-ion oriented EV fest said that the word is that Li-Ion can't go below 85% charge (meaning you can only use 15% of the capacity without at least some degradation $$$$$ to the battery which means it won't last the 20-50 or more years Toyota alludes to (when managed within specific not to high not too low range of operation ). The ad posted from 1995 was wrong about the longevity which is why Texaco was so rabid to buy the patent.
7. Why didn't Texaco buy the other battery patents , they certainly have the money?
8. Why when T. BOONE PICKENS did his transparent spiel on "windmills" didn't he mention electric cars even one time?
9. EV's in calif in 1998 had driven oil into the $8/barrel range (YES EIGHT DOLLARS) which is where it should be now really .
10. When 2014 comes around Toyota will probably fire up its already built nimh LF plant and you will see long lasting batteries that go far enough for 90% of all travel, so for hybrids its a perfect fit and will drive oil into the ground where it belongs and stimulate the economy.
11. These oil mongers stole the best years of our lives from most all of us and have made life for many a living hell, IE in FL alone in the last 5 years stats say that 20,000 people have died because they couldn't afford to live, You see energy drives all other prices up or down according to its price. There has to be a place in hell for the oil mongers who sold us all out for a few trillion more dollars . (30 pcs of silver).
12. NIMH LF charge from 40% to 80% in just 15 minutes !
13. EV1 Users reported going 70mph for up to 150 miles and were so impressed that they wanted to buy the lease cars and some were even arrested for not turning them back in (to be crushed /chipped to bits).
14. STRANGE isn't it that all the other "Lemons" in history were sold anyway to minimize losses (Edsel, Yugo, Gremlin, etc), but not the EV1 electric? The real reason is that it does (there is one left still running on original batteries at a university and GM is or was furious that they had it and wouldn't give it up. The tech was super and would be even much better now if not squashed by the greedy selfish oil co's.
15. Biologists and other scientists report that 1000 species of life on earth are made EXTINCT FOREVER EVERY YEAR due to oil related pollution.
16. As said our own and friends side by side small cell (cordless phone size) Li-ion vs Nimh test say NIMH wins hands down, Li-Ion never did wake up after deep discharge while Nimh Batteries are still in use since 2006 tests were done (but again truthfully the nimh had to be charged twice to get it back to normal, 1st charge only lasted 10 min, then when put back on charger it came back to the normal ~2 hr talk time; li-ion never charged back up at all in any situation).
Do I need to say more: Yes Li-ion has more energy and less weight but just like many things the happy medium is the one that can carry the ball; hostage Nimh LF battery for electric cars that "may" just last 100 years or more (like the NiFe (nickel Iron battery in the 1910 Edison Electric that still to this day takes a charge; ask Jay Leno ). All of which explains why Texaco was so frantic to buy and bury the patent for as long as possible.
* (Volt uses Li-Ion and is rumored to have problems)
** A an aside note on a different subject it has come to light that the AGM lead acid batteries "can in some cases" test perfect on quick "100 amp load test" but when run out in golf and electric cars can only give 40% or less of the normal new distance ; this "may" happen after only 1 year of normal use, which is disturbing since the quick "load test" is the normal method to check the condition of the battery; BEWARE of what you buy used, don't accept the quick load test; run em out or don't buy em; Eyewitness acct. Now they are telling people to keep them charged and limit discharge to as little as possible similar to what the Li-ion EV festival guy said.
*** If you have already invested in Li-Ion, consider a solar panel to help keep the charge as close to 100% as possible to help prolong your investment life years of use.

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

safe
safe's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2010
Points: 788
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

MEroller wrote:

One last attempt from my side: 70 Watt-h/kg is pathetic specific energy. Li-chemistry is capable of more than double that....

You are correct.

--------------

The "problem" is that somehow the "practically minded" people who are involved with the science of EV's have been mixed up with the "politically indoctrinated" people of the conspiratorial left.

To the left the EV is being "prevented".

To the scientists and DIY hobbyists the problems are practical and pragmatic.

---------------

It makes "us" look bad. (I've struggling with this sad truth since 2006)

---------------

That said.... I still liked my old NiCads because they were very durable.

My new ebike uses A123 20ah LiFePO4 cells. I will not know much about how well they work in "real life" until next spring, but based on their stats they should do well. They have been holding their charge while in storage with ASTOUNDINGLY little loss. My old NiCads had such a serious self discharge that I had to charge them up before each ride because you would lose about 10% overnight. (from peak)

----------------

I've done at least 6,000 miles on lead acid batteries, and would not go back at this point. Back in 2006 lead acid was all that made economic sense. These days LiFePO4 is cheap enough to be practical. NiCads are durable, NiMh is about half as durable as NiCads, but have double the storage.

Lipo (different from LiFePO4) is for the most "hardcore performance" crowd. Tesla actually uses Lipo cells, but then they isolate each cell with a protection circuit. Fires occur because one cell goes bad and it starts a chain reaction. By isolating the small cells their death doesn't cause massive destruction of the pack.

True "hardcore" types run Lipo without protection. (scary)
.

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

MEROLLER: Yes that right, (Dr's stress testing called EKG treadmill to check on heart condition, they run you out till within 20% of max heart rate, then tell you to lie down immediately, if they notice any burps in the EKG they know they may hav a problem)... similarly stress testing Li-ion vs Nimh side by side, yes we did that (drained em as far as poss with normal running, then used resistors and finally just a wire to tie plus and minus together overnight.. next day li-ion was dead dead dead... NIMH came back to life (albeit requiring 2 charge cycles (not sure why) and have been running well since 2006)... NOW THATS A BATTERY THAT IS BULLETPROOF .. . now do you understand why TEXACO bought the patent.. it was as one VP of Texaco was overheard to say "unbreakable". We verified this ourselves at home in 2006 and still are using the same nimh battery in our cordless phone... 7 yrs is quite good for such terrible treatment as throwing on the floor and smashing it to bits and it still came back home and serves us well !!!!!
P.S. Yah, a battery that good "COULD" be bad for business in the oil/gas industry as electric cars with that battery (same as was in EV1 "who killed electric car" ) would provide 90% of all transportation needs and last for 20-40 or more years as toyota says there is no degradation when used within 40-80% limits. Ask yourself why didn't Texaco buy other battery patents?

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

SAFE: Nice reply, Ni-cads (notice they are nickle based not Li) do indeed stand up well, I did my whole ceiling using ni-cad batteries in 2 hand drills, for 2-3 weeks we worked 9 hour days, using drills intermittently to screw the drywall to the ceiling (1800 sq ft house), every day when finished I tied the triggers "on" and let them run till they stopped turning.. then put them on chargers.. worked great..
BUT (there is always a catch right?), ni-cads have a "lazy memory" problem which is why good ni-cad chargers first deplete to 20% dod, and then recharge to 100% . In electric cars with liquid ni-cads, they "gas" alot which makes it possible to explode if there is even a tiny spark (although rare it can happen), and the gassing itself evaporates the water in them , which in turn requires at least weekly checking of the water level and "watering the plants/batteries" alot, time intensive (if you have say 20 batteries).. and kind of a pain. Ni-cad also asks/requires you to run them down before recharging to at least 20% dod or you risk losing "run time/distanc" ; its the lazy memory problem.
NIMH on the other hand is really great because you don't have to worry if they are run down first or gassing or the lazy memory etc... so thats another reason Texaco bought the patent and buried it for the Large format types (LF ) and spent money diverting attention to lesser technologies that sound great but are either too fragile or fall apart in 5 years in any case; the nimh can last many many more years if treated right. If you don' buy this; just ask toyota and all the other hybrid co's (except Chevy Volt) why the mandate NIMH instead of other batteries.

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

antiscab
Offline
Joined: 07/07/2007
Points: 1683
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

inventpeace wrote:

NIMH on the other hand is really great because you don't have to worry if they are run down first or gassing or the lazy memory etc... so thats another reason Texaco bought the patent and buried it for the Large format types (LF )

two things wrong here:
NiMH most certainly does have memory effect - the Vectrix cells in particular need to be run down to 0% SOC (0.5V) before charging for it to go away.

It's great for hybrid's where you can full cycle them everyday, but not so good for EV's.
Toyota is already abandoning the nimh for their hybrids, primarily because the Lithium replacements last longer with more capacity

Both the Rav4 and EV1 NiMH batteries need significant cooling, which is partly why efficiency measured at the powerpoint was so low.
My nimh vectrix used to average 130wh/km, now on Lithium it's down to 95wh/km (and the average speed went up from 70kmh to 85kmh)

You have *always* been able to buy large format NiMH cells from goldpeak, as they still have a license to manufacture cells up to 100Ah
The license was signed before Texaco owned the patents

LiFEPO4 lasts a lot longer than 5 years
My cells with 2006 production year codes are all still in service

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $3000
Cost to do it again: $1000 + $3800 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $1500 (lasts longer)
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $7560 + $1000 + $1600 + $4000 servicing
Total spent: $20405
Total to do again: $10905
Total to have used a petrol bike: $21600
Total distance travelled so far: 102'120km

Other vehicles:
2008 Mazda 2 conversion
2009 Blade Electron
1997 Prius - plugin hybrid mod

antiscab
Offline
Joined: 07/07/2007
Points: 1683
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

inventpeace wrote:

FYI: Rumors are that Plug in Prius hybrids (they use Nimh stacked packs) sold overseas have an electric only" button that allows the user to use only electric and no gas at all until battery drains too far and they have to switch over, but by adding more batteries (calif co does this for you at a price (" $3500"? ) you can have a plug in prius with a decent range in the USA too. Question is why isn't toyota allowed to sell that version already set up (with the xtra batteries in usa already? )

The EV button isn't officially available due to CAFE legislation (it changes the official MPG calculation, it's easier just to leave the EV button off)
All the hardware is there, just not the button (adding one is easy)

All prius can be put into EV mode, but it is very limited

btw - you can't charge nimh batteries in parrallel due to the voltage drop at full charge

to have a plugin prius with "decent" range you have to have significant battery capacity on board

Toyota have always been allowed to sell a plug-in car
They generally release new products in Japan 18 months before everywhere else - mainly to contain losses in the event of a manufacturing or design flaw turning up

Their plugin Prius (with Lithium battery) is on sale in Japan currently

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $3000
Cost to do it again: $1000 + $3800 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $1500 (lasts longer)
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $7560 + $1000 + $1600 + $4000 servicing
Total spent: $20405
Total to do again: $10905
Total to have used a petrol bike: $21600
Total distance travelled so far: 102'120km

Other vehicles:
2008 Mazda 2 conversion
2009 Blade Electron
1997 Prius - plugin hybrid mod

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
TO ANTISCAB: re nimh discussion

Interesting news, thanks ! Your comment about having to charge nimh in series is essentially true for almost every case (almost). There is an exception (possibly) since toyota says charge only to 80% and discharge only to 40% for the longest life (no degradation of cells; to get the 20-40 or more years of use)... Sooooo based on that there is no need to charge to 100% (in fact it slightly damages the cells according to what toyota seems to be implying); thus we can charge only to 80% from 40% using parallel "MAYBE", (research is needed here), using temperature sensors (thermistors) connected to logic chip to trip charger off for any particular parallel pack if temp rises too much but also if it rises too fast (2 temp factors to consider), also voltage monitoring to prevent too much voltage being applied (0.6v more than rating per cell is the norm I have been told IE for 1.2v cell you need 1.8v to charge it with, projecting 7.2 v (6 cell module) you need 6 x 0.6v = 3.6v more than the 7.2v for a total charging voltage of 10.8v to charge it even though its rated at only 7.2v (you have to force the charge in all batteries at a higher than rated voltage fyi). So the summary is you "might" be able to charge to 80% using parallel config (against all normal advice ) because you are not going to the full 100% charge (which alleviates overcharging, overheating concerns , preventing meltdowns etc). And presumably according to the original GM Ovionic ad for Nimh LF types it can be charged "possbily" in 15 minutes as well. (all this needs to researched). FYI: Once one NIMH cell reaches full charge it undergoes a very slight voltage drop (which is hard to detect , so temp rise rate is the preferred method to determine charge condition) this voltage drop is accompanied by a kind of short circuit condition which means that the cell that reaches 100% first starts to "HOG" all the juice and overheats and will melt and start a fire if temp sensors are not used to cut off charger (volt sensor works but as said its so slight a v drop its hard to detect).
So its all more complicated but thanks to smart chargers which they had in 1998 it worked very well in EV`1 (using series charge method). For parallel it "MAY" work up to 80% safely enough and still get the 15 minute recharge from 40% allowing lower charging voltages which are safer. OUR patentend circuit is set up for this method but we haven't been able to locate a charger that will do the job we need at the higher than normal 12v voltages of 14.4v (meaning we need about 21.6v to charge the 12 cells .6 x 12 = 7.2 add 14.4 rated volts = 21.6v ); hard to find charger like that prebuilt, also we have been distracted with massive other work that had to be done, .. But in any case the patent circuit works fantastic with the alkaline throwaways and we regularly drain them down below 0.5v from the new 1.5v (off topic). And we also like being able to charge almost any EV battery at the lower than electrocution danger level (>60v) so its another load off our minds when working on the EV Zap PK Xebra we have the circuit in . *we go from 14.4v to 72v with flip of switch making it much easier to safely work on it without the worry of a "shocking" revelation, laugh.

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
TO ANTISCAB: re nimh discussion (more)

Its news to me that NIMH has any memory problem when used as toyota recommends it.. yes they need cooling but so do most batteries when used heavily (lithium has explosion issues fyi; almost like sitting on a hand grenade if used in golf carts , remember the exploding laptops news reports? ) All the ads that I ever saw for NIMH say things like can be recharged at any time , no lazy memory problems, no need to discharge completely first, etc. Also I have heard rumors that vectrix battery management is not the best and makes the packs go bad too quick? Maybe you know more about this? (one person said they need more temp sensors?)
Besides again, why didn't texaco buy the li-ion patent instead of the Nimh patent? They put out alot of misinformation in my humble opinion.

Flooded type NI-Cads do indeed gas alot (hydrogen gas) and thus have to have ventilation and really should be cooled too. They also have to be "watered alot" to replenish the evaporated water which makes them not so attractive as NIMH which is solid state and only need to torqued together to prevent swelling issues.
Look the EV1 got rave reviews, ask around about the actual users of the EV1 with the NIMH LF battery , you will be told they were fantastic ! and many of the lessees wanted to buy the cars when they were recalled to be crushed and chipped into pieces but were denied. (why?). Some users of 1998 EV1 were arrested for not turning in the cars as they wanted to keep leasing or buy them. Also remem 1998 Toyota Rav4 had same LF nimh battery and they are still on the road with original charge.
Last I heard toyota spent a whole year researching using Li-ion to use in their Prius's, but then suddenly switched back to (stayed with ) NIMH even though they can't yet (until patent runs out in 2014) use the much more efficient LF NIMH version that was in EV1 (but they have factory ready to start up as soon as 2014 arrives).
Again you have to ask : why are li-ion EV's lagging in sales and prius and other NIMH types of hybrids doing so much better in sales? Nissan "Leaf" is rumored to have some problems with reliablity in the battery area; and sales are not zooming either. Volt also is lagging in sales and uses Li-Ion as well. Beware of misinformation from front co's for oil co's. IE Uni-SOL/ECD was very successfully making solar SHINGLES and then was bought out by 3rd party co and driven immediately into restructuring (bankruptcy), we called uni-sol/ecd and they don't seem to have a sales dept either?? Similarly GM used to buy trolley car systems and bankrupt they so people would buy more cars (ask around).

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 464
Re: TO ANTISCAB: re nimh discussion (more)

Wow. Just read this discussion. I couldn't be bothered writing a long post so ill keep it very short.

Lithium batteries shouldn't be discharged below 85% DOD. That means you can charge to 100% and go all the way down to 15%. That gives you 85% USABLE capacity.

I still have a 4 year old EV with LiFePo4 battery that I constantly discharged to 10% remaining. It still works as good as it did 4 years ago but has lost around 5% capacity. My 14 month old scooter with LiFePo4 batteries still goes and has 102% capacity.

NiMh = heavy

Lithium = lighter

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Ok p carlson,
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION:
Sounds like a good testimony. For the Nimh side, its more durable, lighter than pba, and has already lasted 14 years in the Toyota Rav4 EV built in 1998.

Time will tell which is really the best battery.

On another track it seems like since electrons are virtually weightless that someday (100 years?) someone will invent a very very very lightweight battery that will last many long years.
All our experience from our friends experience with Li-ion has been failure quicker than should be. And you still have to ask why didn't texaco buy the li-ion patent as well as the Nimh patent? Of course they are still improving li-ion so in time maybe I will become a believer but for now, I am still waiting for 2014 when the Nimh Patent held hostage will be set free from its tiny tiny tiny minded keepers (1000 species/year are going extinct due to oil/gas pollution according to scientists/biologists.

Heres one of many articles on the pro's and con's of Li-ion:

HowStuffWorks "Lithium-ion Battery Life and Death" electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery2.htm

There are ways to extend the life of your lithium-ion batteries. Check out our tips and find out why the battery packs can explode.

Lithium-ion Battery Life and Death
Lithium-ion battery packs are expensive, so if you want to make yours to last longer, here are some things to keep in mind:

Lithium ion chemistry prefers partial discharge to deep discharge, so it's best to avoid taking the battery all the way down to zero. Since lithium-ion chemistry does not have a "memory", you do not harm the battery pack with a partial discharge. If the voltage of a lithium-ion cell drops below a certain level, it's ruined.
Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years. It won't. Also, if you are buying a new battery pack, you want to make sure it really is new. If it has been sitting on a shelf in the store for a year, it won't last very long. Manufacturing dates are important.
Avoid heat, which degrades the batteries.

Exploding Batteries
Now that we know how to keep lithium-ion batteries working longer, let's look at why they can explode.

If the battery gets hot enough to ignite the electrolyte, you are going to get a fire. There are video clips and photos on the Web that show just how serious these fires can be. The CBC article,"Summer of the Exploding Laptop," rounds up several of these incidents.

When a fire like this happens, it is usually caused by an internal short in the battery. Recall from the previous section that lithium-ion cells contain a separator sheet that keeps the positive and negative electrodes apart. If that sheet gets punctured and the electrodes touch, the battery heats up very quickly. You may have experienced the kind of heat a battery can produce if you have ever put a normal 9-volt battery in your pocket. If a coin shorts across the two terminals, the battery gets quite hot.

In a separator failure, that same kind of short happens inside the lithium-ion battery. Since lithium-ion batteries are so energetic, they get very hot. The heat causes the battery to vent the organic solvent used as an electrolyte, and the heat (or a nearby spark) can light it. Once that happens inside one of the cells, the heat of the fire cascades to the other cells and the whole pack goes up in flames.

It is important to note that fires are very rare. Still, it only takes a couple of fires and a little media coverage to prompt a recall.

To learn more about lithium-ion batteries and related topics, check out the links on the next page.

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 464
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

inventpeace wrote:

Exploding Batteries
Now that we know how to keep lithium-ion batteries working longer, let's look at why they can explode.

I can assure you that I got the nickname "King Pops" for a reason when I used to race electric cars. It was not from my lithium batteries exploding, it was from the NiMh batteries exploding. Trying to keep them agitated for maximum performance just before the race. A NiMh pack would only last maybe 6 months in a race car, but my LiPo packs lasted over 2 years and always much more punch than NiMh.

Oh, and it's ONLY the LiPo batteries that catch on fire.

LiFePo4 batteries which we use in our electric bikes, scooters, motorbikes and cars are perfectly safe. They simply can't burn. So you're wrong there. You can literally drive a nail through a LiFePo4 cell and nothing will happen.

I'm not sure why you keep ranting with the tag "Im my humble opinion"?

But in any case, the fact that you still have a working Rav4 EV is fantastic!! That shows that NiMh can be used as a EV battery and Lithium is not the only answer. It's just that the energy density is pretty low in comparison.

Electrons do have a weight, 9.10938291(40)×10−31 Kg. Although it is very small being a sub-atomic particle. To increase energy density we just need anodes and cathodes small enough to hold more of these little buggers. Lithium air battery is looking good right now but still needs some research. But the fact is at least we are putting research into batteries now which has largly been ignored for the last century. The modern day fuel injected engine didn't just magically appear one day, it took many decades of research and refinement.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

GM Lithium-Battery Explosion Sparks Fire at Company Test Lab ... www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-11/gm-lithium-battery-lab-explosion-injures-...

Apr 11, 2012 ... The battery explosion comes as GM seeks to reassure consumers about the safety of the Volt, which uses lithium-ion batteries. Volt sales were ...
=============================================================================

Now you may understand why toyota quit researching using li-ion in its prius (as of last years news date)

TO: Pcarlson:
GM Lithium-Battery Explosion Sparks Fire at Company Test Lab ...
www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-11/gm-lithium-battery-lab-explosion-injures-...

Apr 11, 2012 ... The battery explosion comes as GM seeks to reassure consumers about the safety of the Volt, which uses lithium-ion batteries. Volt sales were ...

Its very well documented throughout the world that Li batteries do indeed sometimes explode (admit rarely but as the article posted said: it only takes a couple of explosions to trigger a recall espec when the car may burn down the garage and house and kill the family inside). Do you want your family sitting on the equivalent of a hand grenade in Li-ion batteries? (google search li-ion problems explosions).
I have never heard of any Nimh batteries exploding ever.
I have heard that LiFePo do swell. Even lead acid explosions are not uncommon. You are grasping at straws. Do you work for the oil industry ?
I have a question:
1. What is the range of your Li-ion full size EV car (miles),
2. how many years have you run your full size EV car?
3. Why didn't Texaco buy the Li-ion patent as well as the Nimh they are holding hostage (preventing improvements too).
I don't have a toyota Rav4 EV ( you misread what I said) but have heard people talking about how they are very collectible and that they still are running on original nimh ev1 type Large Format (LF ) batteries. Also your comment on weight of electrons is moo as I already agreed "virtually weightless" .

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

safe
safe's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2010
Points: 788
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Tesla uses the "dangerous" Lithium type batteries and get a range of 200 miles.

Nickel is "nice", but your range is going to be more in the 40 mile area.

--------------

You want range? Then accept some risk.

You want safety? Then accept limited range.

...that's pretty much where we are.

.

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

In my Humble Opinion:
Tesla Battery Failures Make 'Bricking' a Buzzword - NYTimes.com www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/automobiles/Tesla-Battery-Failures-Make-Bricking-a-Bu...

Mar 2, 2012 ... Recent reports of battery failures on Tesla Roadsters have raised several ... In this case, it was the 1,000-pound lithium-ion battery pack of an electric ... mode, but fewer than 10 Roadsters might be “susceptible” to the problem.
===================================================================

EV1 got up to 150 miles on just 14 LF NimH batteries and could recharge to 80% in just 15 minutes also going 70mph FYI. Ask around for some previous of the 1100 lessees who used the EV1 . They will tell you it was fantastic. Service was simply rotate tires, vaccuum and back out to customer. Li-ion is susceptable to rare explosions.
NIMH doesn't seem to have that problem and as said Toyota RAV4 EV is still on road.

Is anyone going to answer why Texaco bought and buried NIMH Large Format but didn't buy Li-ion patent?
2014 is coming, be prepared, some battery co's are already gearing up to start production of LF Nimh batteries, perhaps if we are lucky we will once again see affordable high quality LF nimh batteries available to consumers. FYI: Saudi's recently said belatedly: " Maybe its time for clean energy"

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

HERES THE CORRECT URL (sorry bout that)http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/automobiles/Tesla-Battery-Failures-Make-Bricking-a-Buzzword.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Article Exerpt: Tesla Battery Failures Make ‘Bricking’ a Buzzword

POWER OUTAGE: Replacing a failed battery pack in a Tesla Roadster costs about $40,000.

By BRADLEY BERMAN
Published: March 2, 2012
An uproar recently ignited on automotive blogs over a post about a Tesla Roadster whose battery needed replacement after its owner parked the car, low on charge and unplugged, for more than two months. The battery, which had fully discharged, could not be revived.

In my Humble Opinion:
Tesla Battery Failures Make 'Bricking' a Buzzword - NYTimes.com http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/automobiles/Tesla-Battery-Failures-Make-Bricking-a-Buzzword.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Mar 2, 2012 ... Recent reports of battery failures on Tesla Roadsters have raised several ... In this case, it was the 1,000-pound lithium-ion battery pack of an electric ... mode, but fewer than 10 Roadsters might be “susceptible” to the problem.

===================================================================

EV1 got up to 150 miles on just 14 LF NimH batteries and could recharge to 80% in just 15 minutes also going 70mph FYI. Ask around for some previous of the 1100 lessees who used the EV1 . They will tell you it was fantastic. Service was simply rotate tires, vaccuum and back out to customer. Li-ion is susceptable to rare explosions.
NIMH doesn't seem to have that problem and as said Toyota RAV4 EV is still on road.

Is anyone going to answer why Texaco bought and buried NIMH Large Format but didn't buy Li-ion patent?
2014 is coming, be prepared, some battery co's are already gearing up to start production of LF Nimh batteries, perhaps if we are lucky we will once again see affordable high quality LF nimh batteries available to consumers. FYI: Saudi's recently said belatedly: " Maybe its time for clean energy"

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

antiscab
Offline
Joined: 07/07/2007
Points: 1683
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

inventpeace wrote:

Mar 2, 2012 ... Recent reports of battery failures on Tesla Roadsters have raised several ... In this case, it was the 1,000-pound lithium-ion battery pack of an electric ... mode, but fewer than 10 Roadsters might be “susceptible” to the problem.

===================================================================

EV1 got up to 150 miles on just 14 LF NimH batteries and could recharge to 80% in just 15 minutes also going 70mph FYI. Ask around for some previous of the 1100 lessees who used the EV1 . They will tell you it was fantastic. Service was simply rotate tires, vaccuum and back out to customer. Li-ion is susceptable to rare explosions.
NIMH doesn't seem to have that problem and as said Toyota RAV4 EV is still on road.

Is anyone going to answer why Texaco bought and buried NIMH Large Format but didn't buy Li-ion patent?
2014 is coming, be prepared, some battery co's are already gearing up to start production of LF Nimh batteries, perhaps if we are lucky we will once again see affordable high quality LF nimh batteries available to consumers. FYI: Saudi's recently said belatedly: " Maybe its time for clean energy"

Let's do some more myth busting:

the bricking problem is due to a computer staying on until the battery is at 0V
This is not unique to EV's powered by Lithium batteries - the number 1 cause of failure in the NiMH powered Vectrix is letting the dc-dc draw 7mA until the total battery voltage is 0V.
the dc-dc is always on, unless you manually disconnect the battery (1 hour job)
That causes ~40% of the cells to be held reversed, causing them to short internally (means the whole battery needs replacing)

On very large NiMH and NiCD batteries, the shorting bars are only ever placed on individual cells.
They will survive 0v indefinitely, but being held reversed causes internal shorts

Texaco could never buy the Li-ion patent because it expired a long long time ago
Li-ion is just a format btw, not a chemistry.
similar deal to the major Lithium chemistries, they're all owned either by universities, or companies with a vested interest in making big batteries and complete indifference to the automotive market

Lithium Cobalt is the explosive variety you find in laptops and cell phones
Lithium Manganese is a bit more stable, and is what is used in nearly all the OEM EV's (except Tesla)

LiFePO4 is very very stable (more so than NiMH)
To set a LiFePO4 cell on fire, you have to heat it externally past 180 deg C
With NiMH, you just have to crush it

Large format NiMH batteries have never not been available - you could have ordered them from Goldpeak or Saft.
Up until around 3 years ago you could buy them in retail quantities from www.powerstream.com
pricing back then was ~$2500/kwh

Back to the Prius:
All Australian delivered Prius V have lithium batteries
JDM Prius have Lithium batteries (except Prius C)
Honda CRZ 2013 model year (so Oct 2012 build date onwards) are Lithium (20kw more power aswell)

The EV1 was a great car, mainly because it could carry a significant amount of battery, while being small and aerodynamic
it's efficiency at the battery was ~115wh/mile which was just outstanding
the efficiency at the powerpoint however was ~250wh/mile
Such is the cost of having a refrigerate your battery

Lets define memory effect:
Due to depletion of active material on the annode, the discharge reaction changes half way through the discharge cycle, so nominal volatge falls from 1.25v to 0.95. Ah capacity remains the same.
It is easily reversible by doing a full discharge (at the cell level only)

Neither the EV1 nor the Rav4 EV had a BMS, nor did they need one
to get around the self discharge and balance problem with nimh, all you have to do is do a full discharge once in a while and either:
A) keep them under 20 deg C.

or

B) stay between 20% and 80% SOC (at the cell, not the battery level)

On a hybrid, the above is easy to do in a convenient way - a flat battery doesn't leave you stranded.
The Prius keeps the battery between 40% and 60% SOC, which keeps the highest and lowest cell between 20% and 80%
the SOC-self discharge curve holds them in balance despite the high self discharge rate

I actually have one of the original Prius's which formed the JDM test model.
It was manufactured in 1997, and used the original 240 D cell battery
This battery was cycled between 20% and 80% dod, and poor thermal management caused a temp gradient through the battery
The result was a service life of around 3 years between battery rebuilds.

The EV1 and Rav4 EV both used their heat pumps as a dump load for the monthly full discharge
very simple, very reliable, very inefficient

Fast charge has never been a battery problem, it has always been a grid problem - finding a big enough power source

Even though my house has a 3-phase 60A 415V (43kVA) connection, I still just use a dump charge pack to fast charge the LiFePO4 battery in my Vectrix.

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $3000
Cost to do it again: $1000 + $3800 + $2040 + $1200 + $425 + $800 + $140 + $1500 (lasts longer)
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $7560 + $1000 + $1600 + $4000 servicing
Total spent: $20405
Total to do again: $10905
Total to have used a petrol bike: $21600
Total distance travelled so far: 102'120km

Other vehicles:
2008 Mazda 2 conversion
2009 Blade Electron
1997 Prius - plugin hybrid mod

safe
safe's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2010
Points: 788
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

I'm pretty sure Romney didn't win the election. ;)

Apparently 7 million who voted for Obama in 2008 and 800,000 who voted for McCain in 2008 DIDN'T even vote again this time.

The "bottom line" is that not as many people voted this time.

Despite the fact things look terrible (overall) no one cares.

----------------

Someone should create a thread with a title like:

"How Nickel will save the EV... if the 'evil opposition' can be defeated."

...or something like that.

.

reikiman
reikiman's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/19/2006
Points: 8444
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

@inventpeace :- I'm sorry, but I have to largely disagree with what you're saying. Yes lithium batteries are fragile - that just means you need to have a BMS on the pack to take care of things. That's just an engineering problem to develop a BMS to caretake the battery pack. The increase in energy density is worth it.

Today's lithium batteries are 150+ watt-hours/kg. Future lithium batteries are promising to be 400 watt-hours/kg or more, in just a couple years. That's way way way way more than your NiMH batteries could ever think of doing. GM's CEO Dan Akerson has been talking about a 200 mile range Chevy Volt in a few years, for example.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/envia-systems-battery-breakthrough-affordable-300-mile-range-electric-cars
http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gms-akerson-promises-200-mile-range-electric-car-few-years

Sigh.. the bricking fiasco ... have you thought that maybe that story was just a bunch of sensationalist poppycock? Anyway, I also covered this story at the time. It's not a matter of a fragile battery chemistry, but a vehicle design that left parasitic loads draining the battery pack with no lockouts to keep the pack from going below the low voltage cutoff. As I said, that just underscores the need for a BMS with proper safety measures.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/tesla-motors-says-you-cannot-brick-model-s

Exploding laptops ... surely you have heard that those laptops had LiPo cells that were prone to explosion? And that other chemistries are not prone to explosion.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the Chevy Volt fire story ... to preempt you from doing so ... that was a bunch of political hot air hooey as ridiculous as Romney calling Tesla a Failure. I collected a very long page full of detailed information on that story, and have written a dozen or more news articles about it. The cause of that fire? The side impact crash test drove a frame member into the battery pack, releasing coolant into the pack and crushing a couple cells. After THREE WEEKS conditions became right to cause a short, that caused a heat release, that eventually ignited the battery pack. I dunno about you, but in three weeks I could crawl to a safe distance.

http://greentransportation.info/chevy-volt-battery-pack-fire-in-2011

As for major hybrids using lithium ... add to the list given earlier all of Ford's hybrids and plug-in hybrids such as the Ford C-MAX Energi.

__________________

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra Townie, 1971 Karmann Ghia (since sold), Kia Soul EV

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Hey Reikiman,
Interesting answers and information, i may become a believer in time. BUT I still say wait till 2014 when NIMh LF patent runs out and the prisoner is freed from the Oil monsters *(you can't deny Texaco did indeed buy the patent and is still preventing the use of the LF NIMH Ev1 type batteries by not licensing anyone to make it (they sued toyota with an army of lawyers when Toyota did indeed make the LF version and toyota had to pay millions to the patent suppressors).
Also all our information says Li is suspect, yeah maybe a better BMS would solve most of the problems. Also most all major hybrids in the USA still use nimh for some strange reason.
Time will tell .
HERE is a couple links you might want to look at :

Goodbye to lithium-ion batteries?
http://machinedesign.com/article/goodbye-to-lithium-ion-batteries-0322

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/batteries/index.html

2014 is coming soon, already the oil mongers are talking about switching to clean energy (recent Saudi comment on Newswire). Good luck with your EV ! For us we will wait until the prisoner patent is freed before (govt should make new law to prevent patents from NOT being used (suppressed) I'm sure you would agree that the idea of the patent system was to promoted new tech, not bury it as Texaco for "some strange" reason is still doing to this very day. (Either T. Boone Pickens is Crazy or the NIMH LF really is that good and has probably been improved since 1998 by interested battery co's ?)

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 464
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Lol. Talk about getting off topic.

Tesla = great company

Lithium batteries are better in every way to NiMh.

No. I don't work for an oil company, but with 2 LiFePo4 powered electric bicycles, 2 LiFePo4 powered 8Kw electric scooters (100kmh speed), 1 LiFePo4 powered 30Kw electric dirtbike, a LiFeMnPo4 powered Nissan Leaf and a 2004 NiMh assisted Prius.....Yeah, I don't pay much for fuel anymore. Only filled up once in the last 4 months at $1.579 a litre.

I was talking about Radio Controlled RC cars in my last post. Still capable of pulling 125Amps from a 7.8v pack accelerating a 1.25Kg RC car from 0-100km/h in under 2 seconds. In RC racing, NiMh batteries were charged at 6A all the way to 100% (thats 1.2C) and when a battery gets about 4 weeks old it would struggle to stay hot before a race without a cell swelling and exploding. If you didn't force the battery up to 9.8v then you would be too slow off the line. Lithium packs were a lot lighter and could handle 25C to 30C (5Ah x 30 = 150Amps). You could charge the lithium battery the night before and it would still have great "punch" off the line and throughout the race, whereas NiMh would 'fade' after 2 minutes into the 5 minute race. Yes we used the 'dangerous' LiPo batteries, but the club rule was you MUST have a low voltage cut-off otherwise it could catch on fire. I did see one LiPo catch on fire because he wasn't using a low voltage cut-off, but because the race pack LiPo batteries are encased in a hard enclosure, the flame was no bigger than a ciggarette lighter, about 1cm and lasted a few seconds.

The whole point of this is, if they can make LiPo safe for RC cars, then I am VERY sure Tesla can make them safe for normal cars.

I would much rather sit on 200Kg of lithium batteries in my Nissan Leaf, than 80 litres of a highly combustable fuel in my old car.

With all your negativity towards Lithium batteries, why do you keep posting? 5 years time there may be a new battery with 10 times the power density of LiPo, will you hate that too? NiMh is like the first generation of low resolution Plasma TV's. Time to move on.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 464
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

inventpeace wrote:

BUT I still say wait till 2014 when NIMh LF patent runs out and the prisoner is freed from the Oil monsters

Hooray for that!!

NiMh or Lithium, as long as it works! Maybe NiMh can be used to make cheaper EV's? Lets see.

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

pcarlson1979
pcarlson1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/20/2011
Points: 464
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

inventpeace wrote:

Goodbye to lithium-ion batteries?
http://machinedesign.com/article/goodbye-to-lithium-ion-batteries-0322

Exactly what I mean! New technology and ideas. At least research into batteries seems to be happening now. 1060wh/kg sounds fantastic!

__________________

------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller

24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS - 13 October 2012

"Scrappy" - Custom 48v Electric Dirtbike Conversion
20 Feb 2012: Bought 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM Motorcross Bike for $100
Motor: MARS ME0708
Controller: Alltrax AXE4844 400A controller
Battery: 16xCHL 50Ah LiFePo4 = 48v

inventpeace
inventpeace's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/17/2011
Points: 32
Re: Is Tesla a Failure? Romney thinks so.. but it really ...

Yes the research by non oil types is continuing and will eventually win out... it probably will written up in history as a saga of the perservering environmetalists over the self serving greed of the selfish few. Good thinking: don't burn bridges keep all options open and may the best battery win ! !
Best Regards !
P.S. Yeah Romney was trying to already start a war with Russia, thank god he lost or Israel may have already attacked Iran "possibly" triggering a war that
"could" escalate into a nuke winter, in turn "possibly" wiping out all life on earth? who knows for sure.

__________________

The Truth Sets You Free !

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

style="display:block"
data-ad-client="ca-pub-2401070691062219"
data-ad-slot="2079401426"
data-ad-format="auto">



Who's new

  • EllsworthHomeSe...
  • Biscayne Dental...
  • Tamiami Dental ...
  • MJSfoto1956
  • Honda CB

Customize This