30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

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milleym
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hey Gus -

RE: gray wires

Okay, so the gray wires aren't doing anything. (Don't shoot the messenger...) I'm guessing maybe that's what these wires are for on other models, and maybe the XB-600 doesn't have a limiter. The dash on this bike looks like it's pretty standard on all these little chinese scooters, so maybe on other models that X-Treme sells, the grey wires actually do limit the speed; I don't think X-Treme tech support would just pull this concept out of thin air. Out of curiousity, did you follow those gray wires to see where they go when they leave the console? I wonder if they are connected to anything or not. I didn't see any gray wires going into the controller when I was installing the shunt, and you figure that's where they'd have to go, so unless the color changes as some point, or if the gray wires are doing something to the throttle circuitry... hmm... curiousier and curiousier

RE: gas free fun

So I went to lunch with one of my client's today, who's a hard-line, SUV-drivin', kill-the-earth-who-cares kinda right-winger, and I was telling him about my mod and the fun I was having with the bike. So he asked me what I paid for it, and what my commute was. I told him I was about 8 miles from home and (including the mod) I've probably invested about 900 bucks into the bike. He did some quick figuring, and came up with the fact that I'm only saving about 2 dollars a day, and that it would take me 450 days to achieve a return on my investment (ROI), basically trying to laugh at my assumption that that I'm saving anything at all.

Meanwhile, this guy drives about the same distance every day in his gas-guzzling Land Rover. I'm thinking to myself: wait what's the ROI on your vehicle? Oh, wait, there isn't any. Yeeeah. (Further, his calcuation is assuming gas prices don't increase even more, which they inevitably will)

So I've decided to proudly write on the whiteboard in my office the amount of money left before ROI. (Yeah, yeah, I know, passive aggressive and all that.)

Anyway if I subtract the days I've already used the bike I'm down to about $886 or so, and falling every day!

So, ArcticFox: if you're selling to someone who seems cynical, and they take the view that their purchase is going to take 3 years to start putting money back in their pocket book, just ask them what their ROI is on their CURRENT vehicle.

Cheers,

-Mark

ArcticFox
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

LOL! That's a good point.

Fortunately I haven't had to convince anyone that these types of vehicles are a whole lot better than any gas vehicle they have now. So many people do want one (or one of the other EVs I sell), unfortunately everyone is trying hard to hold on to what money they do have "just in case".

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gushar
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Some quick thoughts here...

Milleym...those gray wires as I explained in a previous post are wire tied to the left side of the handlebar...where the plugs are connected and it is just a "loop" back into a bundle of wires that's covered by a piece of rubber covering that is wired tied on each side to hold the cover over the wires and whatever is inside. Those other wires come up into that area separately. And nothing gray comes out the other side of that bundle...just the wires that are coming into it other than the gray wires. And it's all right there under the gauge cluster.

I'm still wondering why Zerogas didn't have the battery drain experience you've had. I mean he's stated that he's ridden 6-8? miles picking up his daughter (two people) along the way...and hasn't had that problem...at least to that extent. Although I'd like to know exactly what range he can get with the mod...even approximately. Maybe it is that wire you used....and yes I thought about a "switch" regardless. I mean why not be able to switch on the extra power when you really need it? But then once you've "tasted" speed it's hard to give it up!!! :-)

And regarding your client's attitude....well also alot of people seem to disregard even if it cost more money...which in most cases it saves...it might be a good idea to stop spewing all these emissions into the air!!!!! I mean does everything have to be a money thing. What does money mean when you can't breathe...or you destroy the climate balance, etc.???? Just ignorance in my opinion... Where are priorities at?

Articfox....saw your quest for pics. Hey, maybe you could get some cool looking "electric" decals (have some made) and for those of us that provide some photos/comments...that would obviously help you sell some scoots...you could send us some for free! ;-) You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours sort of thing :-)
But hey, then would our positive comments and photos be an "unbiased" thing if we got something for sending them??? Mine would!:-)

Gushar

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zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Mark,
I've got a question... If you wired into the black wire on the charger plug, how did you know the black wire was the one accepting the negative from the last battery. You might take the cover off of your pack to verify this. Also, make sure you have that wire's out going to the positive on your 5th battery. It sounds silly, but batteries can be hooked up reversed which will quickly create a discharge (reverse charging) situation. I've seen it happen with a bad battery charger. Also, my experience when wiring into the charger plug was a very low voltage on the voltage gauge. It seemed like I only had 12v for some reason. I don't think this way works to well for some reason.(maybe because it has to add voltage after the plug) Also, if you still haven't topped off the charge on your batteries, a weak battery will quickly weaken the pack. Just some things to rule out ;) I agree with Gus though, I think it's the wire in the shunt. Take it out and use the coathanger. Copper wire is very conductive, so it may not be resisting enough. This would make your motor draw all the amps it wanted, LOL. I can ride 16 miles easily without running out of juice, so something is amiss with your setup.

To do list:

1. CHARGE YOUR BATTERIES FULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. check connections (including connections inside battery pack)
3. Try wiring into the pack ( it's easier than it sounds and you can still remove the pack)
4. If these don't help, change shunt to coathanger 1.5" long.

This should get you going.
-Warren

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zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Also,
You could take your chargers to work with you. I take mine and charge at work too, because I read that batteries will last longer if you keep them fully charged and never go below 50% discharge.

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zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

It just dawned on me... What if the gray plugs you guys are talking about go to the red button on the right grip? You know the one with the lightning bolt on it that is the shifter on the xm 2000. I bet if you unplug the right side leads that go to the horn they would plug into those gray wires and lead to a hidden plug under the seat that would go to a bigger motor :) hmmmmmmmmmm. Now, I'm getting curious again. Will Zerogas install a 3000 watt motor on his xb 600? Stay tuned....

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ArcticFox
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

You mean 6000 watts.

;-)

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zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

LOL,
I looked. The gray wires are just jumper wires. I did however, notice that the right horn button could be used as the "shifter" for the xm3000 motor :D. I'm getting more and more ideas! Any news on a motor AF? I've looked everywhere and all I can find is the EVT motor and they want almost 800 bucks for it. That would double my investment. Rather than do that, I would sell my xb 600 and buy an xm 3000 or possibly the xm3500Li :). I'd like to get it anyway, hehehehehee.

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bocabikeguy
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Quote:

A possible problem could be the shunt that I used is actually too conductive. using a coathanger somehow didn't seem right, so I used an inch of 16 gauge copper wire.

Your problem is definitely the shunt. What you have done with the 16 gauge copper wire is short circuit the shunt, rather than reducing the resistance of the shunt a bit like the 1.5" length of coat hanger did in the example. By short circuiting the shunt like you did, you got more power - basically limited only by the wiring in your motor, the wiring on your bike, and the components in your controller. You might have turned your 600w bike into a 6000w bike, which is why you now have no problem keeping up with traffic. Of course your speed is still limited because the motor will only run at a maximum speed based on the 60v you are putting into it no matter how many watts of power you supply.

Not only are you draining your batteries VERY quickly by doing this, you are gonna blow something (hopefully) or cause a fire. If you can't purchase shunt wire of a known resistance and calculate maximum current based on the controller circuit, AT LEAST use a coat hanger with a minimum length of 1.5", as was used in the eMax thread. Putting a switch across the shunt would not help, because you still would be shorting the shunt and allowing more current than is safe for your scooter.

Until you fix this, you should go VERY EASY on the throttle. Better yet, fix it before you use the scoot again.

zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Makes sense. You still need to keep your batteries fully charged though. ;)

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zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hmm,
This is interesting.
Chinese suppliers for hub motors
:)

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solarcharger
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hi Guys! Another Newbie here! Just bought an XB600 about 3 weeks ago and have been reading the posts here about the Shunt Modifications with great interest. I just finished the Mod and followed the instructions almost to the letter. I did do one thing different; Instead of soldering the other end of the coat hanger wire to the opposite side of the circuit board, instead I attached it to a length of wire that runs out the end of the controller housing along with all the rest of the wiring. It runs to an on/off switch and from that switch another length of wire runs back into the controller and is soldered to the opposite side of the board, completing the circuit. After re-assembling the whole thing and giving it a test run, I have to say that I can't tell any appreciable difference in performance of the bike. It is still wired only for 48 volts, but even at that, I would assume that I should see better acceleration and better hill speed even though I know I'll never reach 30 mph without the extra battery. Any ideas? Perhaps the wire runs are losing enough current to dissapate any gains in the new shunt wire. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance.....Terry

bocabikeguy
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

solarcharger, there are three possibilities.

1. You picked a coathanger with too much resistance. Are all metal coathangers made the same?

2. The place you soldered the coathanger wire to is not the same as drilling a hole and soldering to the board as are in the instructions.

3. Your solder joints themselves have too much resistance.

If I were to do this modification, I would measure the resistance across the shunt with a digital voltmeter before soldering the extra shunt wire, and then measure the resistance across the shunt after adding the extra shunt wire. That way, even if I don't know the circuit and can't do the math, I will have an idea of how much I am changing the shunt resistance and can use that as a reference in case I need to make changes. My guess is that had you measured the shunt resistance before and after you added the extra shunt wire, for some reason, the shunt resistance did not change much - which is why the performance of your scooter did not change much.

milleym
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hi Terry -

It sounds like you didn't understand the purpose of the shunt. You can't just go soldering stuff anywhere you'd like and expect results.

In your controller, you should see two or more thin strips or bars of metal bridging two areas of the circuit board. They are bare; they don't look like traditional wires at all, and they are small; mine bridged a gap that was only about 1.25". These pieces of metal have resistance, and serve to slowly increase the amps/volts going to the motor, so that even if you open the "throttle" all they way, the amps/volts aren't going to suddenly surge as if you flicked a light switch.

The point of the shunt is to add an additional path between these two points, allowing greater "throughput" of juice.

You should notice a difference after you do it; the bike will definately be more responsive and be able to actually accelerate up hills.

It sounds like what you did was to allow more power to run along a part of the circuit that was already running at full capacity, thus, you didn't change anything.

So, look for the little bars, drill as close as you can, and run an arch of coathanger between them. Let us know how it goes!

Good Luck,

-Mark

milleym
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Quote:

Until you fix this, you should go VERY EASY on the throttle. Better yet, fix it before you use the scoot again.

Well, that was a pretty dire warning.

Actually, things have still been running very well. I don't open the throttle all the way, because often, there is no sense; I'm sending more amps to a motor that isn't going to go faster than 28mph (at this voltage, anyway).

I'm still having a radius problem that's definately related to the 12ah battery's limited capacity. Round trip, my ride to work and back is a total of 17 miles. Even with a full charge, around mile 15 or so, the 12ah battery dies.

The experience is like this: you're cruising along, clipping at about 25-28 mph, and then within a span of about 2-4 minutes, your bike is suddenly running at 48v again, and you're only going at 20mph. Worse, the dead 12ah battery now presents a new load on the system, so your acceleration is suddenly worse than the pre-shunt days; so much so that the voltage meter drops lower the more you try to accelerate. Eventually, this dead 12ah battery drains the other batteries even faster as it tries to balance itself. It's all bad, really.

I'm definately swapping out the 12ah battery for a 20ah when I get a chance. I would strongly reccommend that anyone doing this mod, particularly if you've got a long distance to travel, get the 20ah battery as well so that the batteries remain in balance.

Cheers,

-Mark

bocabikeguy
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Mark, I didn't mean to sounds so dramatic. With the shunt effectively shorted out by the copper wire, I am concerned about blowing the FET's in the controller, and concerned about the wires between the controller and the motor heating up. The copper wire shorting out the shunt could be getting very hot, depending on where in the circuit the shunt measures current, which itself is a waste of battery power.

milleym
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Quote:

With the shunt effectively shorted out by the copper wire, I am concerned about blowing the FET's in the controller, and concerned about the wires between the controller and the motor heating up.

Okay, okay, if you're that concerned I'll swap it out when I get the new parts to fix my other power problem. I'm hoping that this doesn't take away the great acceleration I have now. :-/

milleym
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Quote:

I'm definately swapping out the 12ah battery for a 20ah when I get a chance. I would strongly reccommend that anyone doing this mod, particularly if you've got a long distance to travel, get the 20ah battery as well so that the batteries remain in balance.

And for those of you who are looking for a reasonably priced 20ah battery, I'd avise getting it direct from X-Treme; they have them for a steal at $59 w/free shipping. I bought my 12ah battery locally for more than that. >:-(

zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Terry and Mark,
Use the coathanger guys! The wire is probably gonna burn up your controller because it's too conductive. With the coathanger shunt you still have incredible acceleration(almost dangerous):) You can accelerate UP hills with the coathanger shunt, I think the reason to use coathanger is it kinda matches the resistance of the metal used in the shunts that are already there. As for Mark's 5th battery woes... I may not be experiencing this because I charge at work. Also, my round trip is 11-13 miles. I still think your wire shunt is allow too much amp draw though. Also, about not using full throttle.. I don't either! I've found the bike actually responds better and achieves a higher top speed if I only turn the throttle to the notch before the last one. FOR THE WIN.... I HAVEN'T BOUGHT ANY GAS (AT ALL) IN ALMOST 3 WEEKS!!!!!!!!!! I love this scooter!(so does everyone that rides it) :D So, do the shunt mod as described, then add a 5th battery and blow the 50cc gas scooters off the road!

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zerogas
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

By the way, I'm still looking for a 1500 - 2000 watt 3 phase brushless hub motor capable of handling 72 volts if anyone knows where I can order one without having to buy 100 of them. :)

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bocabikeguy
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

zerogas, you tried the crystalyte controller on your xb 600 at 72 volts, and you felt shudder from the motor at startup and did not improve the top speed? Can you elaborate on this some? Are you still using the x-lyte controller at 60v? The reason I ask is because it seems to me that the xb 600 motor should be able to work fine at 72 volts or more, as long as you don't also increase the current at the same time. That SHOULD give you a lot more power and more speed. I'd sure be tempted to try an eCrazyman controller before buying a new motor.

audiophil2
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hi Guys,
I just bought an xb-600 last week and am loving it so far. I stopped using my 12mpg Jeep as my commuter. I have been following these threads as I am looking for a way to get more top end and better hill climbing ability. I am not sure if anyone has confirmed thier top speeds but I can say my speedometer is way optimistic. My speedometer shows 23-24mph vs. 17-18mph GPS.I can't get past 18mph,gps, on flat land. Going up a freeway overpass I slow down to a top speed of 10mph, gps and down the overpass I top out at 21mph.
I am 216lbs and don't carry anything other than the charger, tool set, and pedals in the seat storage.

Zerogas, is the stock controller able to run 60v safely or do I need to upgrade the controller/other parts? I want to do the shunt and 60v mods but not if it will damage the circuitry. Has anyone considered wiring in what the car audio world calls a "stiffening" capacitor? I'm not an engineer but I was thinking 2-4 farads or more of capacitance might prolong the life of the batteries from off-the-line-full-load starts. Comments?
Phil

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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

audiophil2, I always thought those 4 farad audio capacitors were more of a gimmick, but since you are an audiophile, you probably know better than I. It just seemed that a car starter would take more power than the audio gear, so I'm not sure the capacitors help the battery life. They might help to provide clean power for the audio components, however, and not so much to prolong battery life.

The big problem we have with lead batteries in our EV's is sulphation caused by discharging our batteries too deeply. Unless we use high-tech batteries like nickel and lithium, off-the-line-full-load starts tend to damage controllers and burn wiring more than it reduces battery life.

Where I use supercapacitors and 12v 4 farad audio capacitors is on the output of my DC-DC converter to provide startup power for HID headlamps. This keeps me from blowing a fuse or damaging the DC-DC converter.

As far as overvolting your scoot goes, if you don't want to risk damage to the components, run your scooter in the factory configuration. When you modify the controller's current measuring shunt to get more power, you are running the controller at a higher current that it was intended, there is a possibility you can damage FET's or other components in the controller. To avoid a possible interruption in the use of your scooter, you might want to purchase a replacement controller, which probably costs $60 or so. The other thing I've seen a lot is blown DC-DC converters. On a fresh charge with 5 SLA batteries, you might be getting dangerously close to exceeding the maximum input voltage your DC-DC converter can handle.

I overvolt my bikes, and I blow components every once-in-a-while. More often, I get component failure because these are cheaply made Chinese parts than because I abuse the components. But things fail and I fix it. If this bothered me, I'd ride a Honda.

audiophil2
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

milleym wrote:
Quote:

I'm definately swapping out the 12ah battery for a 20ah when I get a chance. I would strongly reccommend that anyone doing this mod, particularly if you've got a long distance to travel, get the 20ah battery as well so that the batteries remain in balance.

And for those of you who are looking for a reasonably priced 20ah battery, I'd avise getting it direct from X-Treme; they have them for a steal at $59 w/free shipping. I bought my 12ah battery locally for more than that. >:-(

I found 12v 20ah batts for $38 shipped here for anyone interested:
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/ba-ty-12-20.htm

audiophil2
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

bocabikeguy,
Thanks for the reply. I suppose the caps won't do much for scooters since they work for extremely short current surges (milli-seconds). I still want to perform the mods so what parts should I replace as preventive maintenance and what parts should I have on hand as a repair?

solarcharger
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hi Guys! Thanks for the quick replies. First, I don't think I made myself very clear on what I did. I HAVE installed the 1.5" coat hanger wire; I drilled two 2mm holes in the circuit board at the proper places alongside the existing shunt wires. BUT only ONE end of my coat hanger wire is soldered to the board itself. The other end runs to a switch which, in turn, goes back to the OTHER side of the circuit board thus completing the circuit. The idea here being that by turning on the switch and closing the circuit on the NEW shut wire, I lower the resistance and therefore increase motor power. By turning the switch back to the off position, I go back to the original resistance created by the two original shunt wires only. Does this make sense? But in test running the bike with both the hanger wire cut on and cut off, I see no difference in power output of the motor or acceleration. I used to be a service technician for Minolta Copiers and am completely comfortable with soldering techniques. BTW, it might be worthy of note for those who do not solder much, to be SURE to use only Resin Core solder. Still looking for feedback. Thanks again!...Terry

solarcharger
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Also, as with all these new bikes, mine came with a 30 amp replacement fuse. But I still have not yet located the fuse holder. Where is it located? In case I blow it, I would like to know just where to go to replace it....Thanks again.......Terry

bocabikeguy
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

solarcharger, what is the resistance across your shunt with the switch on, and what is the resistance with the switch off?

bocabikeguy
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Is the Tysonic really a replacement for the battery that X-treme sells? I don't know Tysonic, but I do know there is a big difference between different brands of batteries, and between different battery model numbers within the brand. Some batteries are designed for deep cycle use, and others will die very quickly if used in a deep cycle application like a scooter.

I would assume that X-treme are using deep-cycle scooter batteries or else we would have heard about it by now in these forums. Does anyone here have experience with Tysonic?

audiophil2, here is my suggestion, but there are other options also. I suggest keeping a spare controller on hand if you overcurrent and overvolt. It is $60, and might keep you on the road in case it blows and the controller is out of stock.

IMHO, the most important spare parts are replacement innertubes and fuses.

I would also wire the extra battery a bit differently. I would wire it so that the controller runs at 60v, but the DC-DC converter and battery meter are only connected to the original 48v batteries. This requires running a wire from the original 48v battery lead to behind where the keyswitch is, and adding a relay:

XB600-60v-3.jpg

The relay I picked was from Mouser and costs $6. There are lots of other relays you could use.

I would also either charge the 5th battery seperately, or use a BattEq equalizing system.

solarcharger
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Re: 30 Mph x-treme xb 600 60v modification instructions

Hi Bocabikeguy! I've got the bike all back together and am running at what appears to be stock speeds (22mph). I won't have another day off to work on it until next Monday when I'll try to take the controller box apart again and get my ohm meter after it to try to get you some readings. I spent the whole evening replacing the rear tire tube! Have had 2 flats in the past 3 weeks and have just taken it over city streets with no apparant materials in the streets that whould cause flats! (altho I did run over a thorn about a week back which induced me to order a spare inner tube!) The spare is now on the bike. Thanks for trying to help with my problem!.......Terry

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