I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might be interesting...

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clagros
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I appologize for the long history, but here it is: I bought the VX in February 2009, it made only 7000 kmts till July 2010.
At the beginning of July 09, after a full charge from cold state, the bike loss all its power after 2 minutes riding.
The problem was that after that it was unable to recharge: when plugged, it started the charging cycle and stopped it automatically after a few minutes.
I repeated the process about ten times in order to get 2-3 battery bars.
The bike (still under warranty - 24 months) went to the workshop, and returned 'fixed' after a week.
After the very first ride (full charged and cold), dead again after 20 kmts.
That happened more than two and half months ago, July 13th, 2010 to be exact.
The bike went back to the workshop again, and since then... radio silence.

I tryed to call the local dealer countless times, e-mail, etc, but nothing. (I even sent a mail to Vectix England, ignored).
Last week I consulted my lawyer and he adviced to go to the police declaring the bike as stolen.
Then I contacted a person from the company, and yesterday I went to the warehouse and found the bike, partially dissasembled.
They told me that they are doing their best, since they cannot get any support from Vectrix.

I can understand the problem, but bottom line is that:
1- I have not my bike
2- It is not fixed yet
3- They cannot make an assessment about the problem or when it will be fixed
4- The warranty time is running out

From my point of view, I don't care about Vectrix or technical issues: I payed very good money USD 13000 but the dealer is not able to manage the problem.
After a 'friendship' meeting with one of the company's representative, he agreed to extend the warranty by the time the bike will be under reparations, and he also promised to provide other electrical bike (not VX) in the meantime.
Funny thing, they are also developing electrical bikes by themselves, and even I saw a demo VX with other type of batteries they are trying.
Not to say that I suspect they are using my own bike for exprimenting.

Conclussion:
Don't know where the local dealer or Vectrix responsibility starts or ends. For me, none of them are able to stand after the vehicle.
I'd expect immediate answers, technical explanations beyond the trail an error, or a full VX replacement.
When I bought the VX I knew I'm bettig, but I expected the dealer or Vectrix will be able to support the clients and expected failures.
Three monts (may be more) is unacceptable.
I still don't know what I'll get, when and it what condition.
What's going to happen after the warranty period?

The good news are that - hopefully - they will be able to provide (sell) a new set of batteries, probalby better.

I'm hungry to hear the forum's opinions, beside those telling that I'm a totally fool.

Thanks, and sorry again for stealing your time.

Claudio

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AndY1
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Since they build electric bikes themselves and they don't get any support from Vectrix, they may be reverse engineering your bike, so that they can build a new battery pack by themselves.
Maybe they're doing what some forum members here are already doing by themselves, because they can't help you otherwise, but they are obliged to repair under warranty?

Charlie91
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Clargos, where are you from?

clagros
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Hi, I'm from Israel...

clagros
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

That's exactly the picture I get: in one side, they need to cover the warranty, in the other side, they do not get sufficient (or any) suppport from VX, In the third side, they probably have the technical capabilities... anyway, I'd expect they to be frank with me offering that solution.
Most probably I'll accept it, since I have no any other alternative, and that could give some confidence about the maintenance of the bike afterwards...

Anyway, the electric bikes they tell they build (I suspect they come from China), are much smaller than the VX... and who know what kind of support they will give (like VX?)

plug&drive

They told me they will call me today... still waiting...
In any case, it could be a good thing if they can replace the batteries, the question is at what cost and when, since VX claimed after 80000 kmt or 6 years... and all this is happening barely after 1.5 year...

AndY1
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

I think your NiMH battery pack died because of the hot climate you live in.

I believe, that they have experience with best battery chemistry for your climate and will integrate it in your bike - at no cost IMO. If they offered you a replacement electric bike, I believe they have a motivation to help you as best as they can.

Aircon
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...
R
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Clargos, If I were you, I'd try to contact Vectrix USA.
Aircon, this motorbike is ready available in catalunya as a goelix: http://www.goelix.com/elektron/

Aircon
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

R wrote:

Clargos, If I were you, I'd try to contact Vectrix USA.
Aircon, this motorbike is ready available in catalunya as a goelix: http://www.goelix.com/elektron/

well Vectrix will certainly have to lift their game if they ever want to sell another scooter then!!

is it as good as the blurb says?

R
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

is it as good as the blurb says?

6kw
Lithium BMS.
I test ride a preproduction unit and it and was fine. It does the job.

clagros
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

It could be right, but it seems mine is the only one out fo 35 sold here...

just_looking
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

R

The elektron looks like a much better bike, is it made by vectrix or has another company up graded the V.

Has it been tested by anyone other than the company for range, as this seems more like the bike i could feel is more promissing.

Bigger motor better battery and perhaps better electronics.

R
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

The elektron looks like a much better bike, is it made by vectrix or has another company up graded the V.

Nope, the elektron is build in a mega chinese factory, and it is imported by different companies around the world. In barcelona, Goelix imports and puts the brand on that EV.
As I said, it does the job, but there's no passion in driving it. In my opinion, apart from the battery, it needs 3-4 years of improvements to achieve the quality of a bike like Vectrix. I've tested all electric motorbikes hanging around in barcelona. I'm afraid there's nothing better than a Vectrix.

antiscab
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

just_looking wrote:

Bigger motor better battery and perhaps better electronics.

I wouldn't go that far.
The bike is being hyped:

The motor is this:
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_62&products_id=389

max continuous power of that hub motor is 6kw (heat limited).
I put 14kw through my V continuously at 110kmh.

acceleration has more to do with how powerful the controller is.
a 600A controller would give it the same acceleration as the V (IE 26kw)
kelly make lotsa controllers around that power level, but still US$1500 a piece

If the bike is the same physical size as the V, quoted range is just as wildly optimistic.

my bike, with a 140v 60Ah pack (7kwh usable) gets between 55km (32miles) @ 110kmh and 120km (70 miles) @ 70kmh.
pretending for a moment that a 72v 100Ah pack can give you 7kwh usable, there is no way it could get above 70 miles of range at any usable speed.

top speed is limited by rpm on the V (meaning I have 26kw (35hp) available to get up hills and fight winds at top speed).

top speed on that hub motor setup is limited by voltage.
meaning at 120kmh (77mph) you have just enough power to maintain that speed on the flat.
you slow down with wind or hills.
at 110kmh (68mph) you would still have full power though, just no reserve for overtaking if you try to go any faster.

If you would like to be able to go faster than a V is capable of, I suggest making your own.
enertrac make a 10kw continuous hub motor that can be spoked into just about any rim.
combine with a 144v battery and controller and you can have high power and decent top speed.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Folks- As one of you already said- there are 2 sides to this.

Vectrix Poland signed a contract w their importer whihc they are NOT honoring.
US is starting to produce but do you think they care about Europe customers they already delegated to Poland?
No- because noone at Vectrix cares about the brand name which unfortunately has been so mismanaged by the feuding Poland and US (especially Poland) that its not salvageable.

I mean how else can you explain:
- Cancelling contratcs
- Not producing the spare parts an importer or dealer needs to fix local customers bikes (sounds like they are still trying)
- Giving people like HESKETH who sells bikes without paying for them (anyone need proof- mail me)

Why would Poland mismanage this so badly? My guess is because they are tryign to make a uick buck with the left over batteries (OLD!!) before they all run to Costa Rica or something.

This thing cost them a lot more to produce than it does selling it- this is not a business and these are NOT business people

I think the importers who is not gettign supported should sue them..

clagros
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

21/09/10 Update.
No news from the bike. Even we agreed friendly with the local distributor that he will call me the next day with an fix forecast and to arrange an alternative bike in the meantime, he didn't. No bike, no news, no calls no alternative bike. Three months!
Yesterday I've contacted Mr Brian Buccella, VP Sales and Marketing USA. Even I know there is not much he can do, at least he responded my mail, asking for the local distributor details.
In the meantime, I exchanged a couple of SMS with the local agent, which is ignoring all we agreed two days ago.
Since we have a whole holidays week here, I guess I won't hear from him till the next week.
I allow that period of time for a formal Vectrix response, afterwards, if no bike, answer or compensation is provided, I'm going to sue them.
Can't see other way.

R
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

No- because noone at Vectrix cares about the brand name which unfortunately has been so mismanaged by the feuding Poland and US (especially Poland) that its not salvageable.

Please, can you explain a little further?

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Sure-

When Vectrix went bankrupt, Poland continued to function on its own (as you know)
In the last year before Vectrix went bankrupt, Poland had started to liquidate its production through the back door at a loss- they used Chris HArris and an associate out of UK to do this selling in Europe. These folks had been fired from the Vectrix organisation and knew all the dealers in Europe. So they quickly went to markets with old dealers- these were dealers who were fired by Vectrix because of legal issues or no payment. And they started wheeling and dealing to them.. At the expense of importers with exclusivity in those markets (such as France and Germany). Let me give you two examples:

- Chris Harris sold to Electrixx- in Germany - that market belongs to Vectrix Germany, an investor. You can go to their web site and see what they say
- He also sold to Defendis- who owed a half mil to Vectrix - this market belonged to ESCINI at the time.

By the way- Poland was also competing with true Vectrix dealers- such as the importer in Israel our friend is havig issues with.

Hope it helps
Check it out.

Hesketh was another accomplishment frmo this period. These happened under Poland regime.

The US group has to produce because they cannot trust Poland - they are two separate companies

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

try that plugindrivetech.com one.
It has a smart controller and takes hills very powerfully. There are some importers listed on the web site

mikemitbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

MAbike wrote:

try that plugindrivetech.com one.
It has a smart controller and takes hills very powerfully. There are some importers listed on the web site

Hi,
in Austria and Germany it is called "Fury 100" available at some places: Fury 100 stores

I did not manage to testride it yet.

Greetings Mike

antiscab
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

MAbike wrote:

try that plugindrivetech.com one.
It has a smart controller and takes hills very powerfully. There are some importers listed on the web site

Yep, thats identical to the bike I have in the workshop.

Its ability to power up hills is definately dependant upon the controller used.
My customers one arrived with a 120A controller, and it was gutless.

I put a 400A kelly into it, and it *really* moves.
puts down 20kw between 30kmh and 70kmh.
then it kinda gets lethargic and tops out between 90 and 100kmh, depending upon conditions.
great hill climber below 90kmh.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Hi-

You know the same plastic is used on all of these bikes.
This German one looks good but I dont see that they have a good drive train. I see a lot of these all through Europe. It seems this may be an analog controller such as the Kelly controller (or its copy). What you really need is a smart controller and more importantly it needs to be integrated..

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Hi-

You know the same plastic is used on all of these bikes.
This German one looks good but I dont see that they have a good drive train. I see a lot of these all through Europe. It seems this may be an analog controller such as the Kelly controller (or its copy). What you really need is a smart controller and more importantly it needs to be integrated..

MAbike
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Points: 51
Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Hi-

You know the same plastic is used on all of these bikes.
This German one looks good but I dont see that they have a good drive train. I see a lot of these all through Europe. It seems this may be an analog controller such as the Kelly controller (or its copy). What you really need is a smart controller and more importantly it needs to be integrated..

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

naa- different controller w Sin/Cosine functionality
5 regen modes according to the owners manual

antiscab
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

MAbike wrote:

It seems this may be an analog controller such as the Kelly controller (or its copy). What you really need is a smart controller and more importantly it needs to be integrated..

The controller used in the original Mountain Chen bike is a sealed unit, just a bit undersized for the job.
Individual customers (as in importers) can order the bike with whatever controller they want.

The kelly *is* a digital controller.
Many features can be adjusted with a computer (regen current, current limits, voltage limits, speed limits, throttle inputs).
the 400A unit is also too small.

the problem I'm seeing on the one I have is the motor doesn't have enough inductance, so the motorside current limit in software isn't quite fast enough meaning the backup hardware current limit is shutting down the drivers and latching them till the next cycle at low speed. hence you don't get much power till 30kmh.
a bigger controller actually gives more control.

by "smart", what features are you referring too?
The controller I have has a CAN bus port, but I haven't made use of it, since Nothing else on the bike is CAN compatible.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

antiscab
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Points: 1600
Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

MAbike wrote:

naa- different controller w Sin/Cosine functionality

Ah, that would require a different motor aswell.

a sine controller needs a very accurate idea of rotor position.
3 x hall sensors unfortunately isn't nearly good enough.
an encoder is usually needed, but not easy to fit after market to a hub motor.

Those hub motors also have increased 3rd and 5th harmonics to improve efficiency while running on square wave. unfortunately that also reduces efficiency while running on sine wave.

a bigger problem is heat management, as the motors hottest part (the coils) are on the stator internally, where theres little cooling.

changing the design so the windings are on the outer part of the motor drastically increases continuous power density. using a single ratio gear is the easiest way to get the power to the ground.
eventually you just end up with the same drivetrain as the Vectrix, but none of the economy of scale and available parts you have with the simple hub motor design.

I actually prefer BLDC to sine wave motor/controller setups as BLDC is cheaper, simpler, more reliable and more replaceable.

the other way to make a more powerful hub motor is to just make the motor bigger.

that makes the motor heavier, but if you put it in a heavier bike, the sprung/unsprung mass issue isn't as much of an issue.

a heavier bike doesn't need much more energy than a lighter one (unless you go less than 70kmh *all* the time) as most of your energy is going to pushing air out of the way.

Matt

__________________

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst replacement TC Charger
conversion
Spent so far: $5800 + $7000 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost to do it again: $2500 + $5600 + $1720 + $960 + $320 + $720 + $140 + $600
Cost for a Petrol bike:$6000 + + $1440 + $6000 + $800 + $1400 + $3200 servicing
Total spent: $17260
Total to do again: $12560
Total to have used a petrol bike: $18840
Total distance travelled so far: 79'120km

MAbike
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Points: 51
Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Matt- Thank you! This is very helpful
Which bike(s) do you have? You must have worked on them yourself?

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

Matt- Thank you! This is very helpful
Which bike(s) do you have? You must have worked on them yourself?

R
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

The US group has to produce because they cannot trust Poland - they are two separate companies

This is really confusing. How can a company like vectrix be splitted in two companies?
If the US company develops lithium, Europe won't have it? this is senseless!

MAbike
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Re: I just wanted to share this will all of you... it might ...

GP Bought the company (both operations report to GP) and they supply batteries right? So its possible both have Li. Dont know for a fact but that's a best guess

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