What would your ideal E Scooter/ Motorcycle look like?

Motor: Axial gap BLDC >500 volt
Power: 50,000 + watts
Top Speed: 150 + mph
Range: 30-50 miles (realistic expectation w/NiMH)
Brakes: dual front disk, rear disk
Charge Time: <1 hr
Batteries: Lots of NiMH sub-C cells with BMS
Charger: dual 115v 15a input, or 240v input
Charging amperage: 3.45 @ 500v
Charge time: (see above)
Controller: 500v 150A constructed with IGBTs
Throttle: similar to vectrix. twisting in revers kicks in regen, and low-power reverse while stopped.
Dimensions: medium sized sport or street bike
Overall Length:
Overall Width:
Overall Height:
WheelBase:
Seat Height: 2
Max Wt Capacity: >800 lbs
Battery Weight: 173.25 lbs for 504v 9.9ah using 210 of these
Curb Weight: < 450
Frame Type: Aluminum
Running:
Front Wheel Size:
Rear Wheel Size:
Front Tire Size:
Rear Tire Size:
Front Brakes Type: dual disc
Rear Brakes Type: single disc
Front Suspension Type:
Rear Suspension Type:
Drive Train Type: belt drive to reduce noise
Instrumentation: Computer monitoring motor & battery diagnostics and displaying
Instrumentation: Very high sampling rate, comp with "AI" to learn and predict range for given route, it will be tied in with GPS, and you can give it projected route info
Instrumentation: Comp takes weather (wind, temp, ect) from wireless internet for entire rout, and road conditions to help predict range
Instrumentation: Computer learns your personal driving style, and can adjust range according to your current mood
Option: 200A Upgrade Controller
Option: 300A Upgrade controller with A123 battery pack & Upgrade motor with water cooling
Option: 400A Upgrade controller with nano-tech capacitors
Option: Energy "shield" for protection (why not?)
Option: Corbin seat & fairing
Option: w/matching riding gear
Option: Saddle bags
Option: Range extender pack with quick release
Option: Extra main pack with quick release
Option: 15 min charger with A123 batts
Option: Solar charging station
Option: Super compact fuel cell for unlimited range after the batteries are done
Option: Handlebar grip warmers
Option: Helmet with HUD including battery diagnostics and charge left

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Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here E.T.A. 1 mo

You list is way too long.

Basically I'd be happy with something as with the quality, durability and dealer support of a Vespa, and a bit more performance than my e-max is currently tweaked to - comparable to a 150 cc. Also, 60 mile range in normal city riding.

In other words something perfectly buildable with current technology, if someone would take the product seriously.

Sorry If I went too far out, but I took it as if you had all the resources and tech at your disposal, then what would your ideal bike turn out to be. I even considered future technology, since an energy shield of some sort would be really really nice to have.

If I was aiming for practicality, I think something similar to what PJD posted would be in about the perfect price range for balance between performance and range.

My "practical" setup:
Motor: Permanent magnet in-wheel, or axial gap design similar to etek but about 3/4 size to reduce cost
Power: 4k watt to maintain 45-50 mph
Top Speed: 50 mph
Range: 15 with lead-acid, 30 with D-cell NiMH setup, or hybrid pack with both
Brakes: Rear drum, front disc
Charge Time: 1 hr with lead-acid, 2-3 with NiMH (to prolong battery life)
Batteries: lead-acid, or D-cell NiMH to keep cost low, or hybrid pack with both
Charger:
Charging amperage: 15a
Controller: Mosfet design
Throttle: throttle pot mounted on handlebar
Dimensions: Small street bike or large scooter, possibly based on GPR frame
Overall Length:
Overall Width:
Overall Height:
WheelBase:
Seat Height:
Max Wt Capacity: 600
Battery Weight: 160-200# for lead-acid, 60# for NiMH
Curb Weight: <300 for NiMH setup, 400 for lead-acid, 300-400 for hybrid pack
Frame Type: large scooter, or similar to GPR
Running:
Front Wheel Size:
Rear Wheel Size:
Front Tire Size:
Rear Tire Size:
Front Brakes Type:
Rear Brakes Type:
Front Suspension Type:
Rear Suspension Type:
Drive Train Type: In-wheel, or belt if possible
Other: LED headlight, tail, signal lighting standard
Other: 3 sets of motor brush replacements standard
Other: Brake switch controller cutout standard
Other: Under-seat fire extinguisher standard
Other: Smoke detector charger cutout
Other: Motor/controller thermal cutout
Other: Full battery diagnostics, identifies defective batteries
Other: Clutch lever cable disconnect
Other:

Option: NiMH backpack range extender pack +10 miles
Option: NiMH saddlebag range extender pack +15 miles
Option: Extra controller
Option: Matching riding gear
Option: Li-ion range extender pack +10 miles per $1k
Option: Off-board extra fast charger, 1/2 hr to 80%
Option: Upgrade SAFT NiMH from standard Chinese
Option: Instrumentation: motor temp, battery temp, controller temp, motor voltage, motor current
Option: Regen controller
Option: Solar charging station with prefabricated solar mount. Meant for 1 charge daily.
Option: Flooded lead-acid for reduced cost and performance. Enclosed in leak-proof housing.
Option: 55 mph gearing for light riders
Option: Heated grips
Option:

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Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here

Since modifying my e-max, is has become apparent that it the manufacturer never seriously tried to configure the scooter for the performance it was fully capable of - even with the cheap off-the shelf parts components, never determined the level of performance to make it a practical for real daily transportation, and they probably never performed a single km of real world testing before being release.

It's OT, but I don't agree with the assessment of the e-max. I think they did tune it to exactly the performance the batteries were capable of, to make them last. Which in turn did leave a lot of margin on the other components. The more I understand about the e-max, especially the controller and motor, it makes me more convinced that every little bit has been tuned to get the maximum out of the batteries. That was the one limiting factor. The other components are certainly capable of higher speed and acceleration.

The controller is controlling the INPUT current more or less only. Why? Not to save the motor, only to save the batteries. The economy/turbo function is there to make it easier to save Ah. It certainly doesn't protect the motor or controller, because turbo can be active almost continueously. And the motor is wound for max speed around 50-60 km/h, which is about the maximum power the batteries can give in the long run (with regards to range and charge cycles). At that speed efficiency will be highest, since motor voltage is high and current low. Actually, the high effiency of the controller and motor combination, and how they can get the maximum out of the batteries is the key to the performance of the e-max - not the batteries. It sure would have taken some field testing to figure this out. (It's a pity though that the field testing didn't catch other flaws.)

I am convinced that with other batteries, the e-max would have been configured differently. For example like the new series of e-max models that have been announced. They too seem tuned to the performance of their batteries.

And as far as I know, the e-max still remains the best performing electric scooter ever made in larger numbers.

To get back on topic, this is my answer to the question. The ideal scooter would have a BLDC hub motor with or without planetary gearing (like the Vectrix) - I haven't made up my mind yet. Batteries would have to be Li-ion. The whole concept should be tuned to the capacity of the batteries. A range of 100 km at 100 km/h speed should be within reach, yet keeping the weight below 200 kg. Total cost per km needs to be lower than for a car, but can be higher than for an ICE scooter.

Rolf,

I understand what you are explaining, but since increasing the amperage limit on my e-max it has slightly increased the range per charge on both of my scooters, including one that still has the old batteries.

In my case there were long hills, that, prior to the modification, 70 amps, would yield a steady-state speed of about 30 kph (and lots of frustration if traffic was behind me). But at 90 amps/48 volts it reaches a steady state speed of 50 kph. So, for a 22% increase in power, I get to the top of the hill 40% faster. The reason this works is that (from top speed measurements and drag estimates at various hill slopes) I know that the e-max motor's power curve peaks at a little less 50 kph (560 rpm). Recall that discounting air drag, and considering that rolling friction is constant, it takes the same amount of energy to climb a given hill, regardless of the speed. Of course, there is more air drag at 50 kph, but at low speed the motor power curve slopes more steeply than the air drag power requirement.

This is no different than driving a car for optimum fuel economy - driving the car too slow can hurt the fuel economy more than driving it too fast.

My modifications to this point have involved no trade-offs, performance is better all around, and I'm a complete amateur aside from tinkering with cars and a civil engineering degree. So, I suspect that e-max put very little engineering into the scooter.

Mountain suggested we add Torque or climbing ability and battery type.

Torque: don't care
Climbing ability: don't care
Battery type: what ever is most practical.

Tire size: too small looks wimpy, at least 16 inch wheels.
Motor: On both front and rear wheels please.
Top Speed: 65 mph, people drive fast on AZ roads.
Range: Don't care much. Live 3 miles from work.
Brakes: How much does regenerative braking cost?
Charge Time: Don't care.
Batteries: Can there be an option for more batteries?
Dimensions: Something big is preferable over small.
Option: Can you sell a trailer? Can the trailer have extra batteries?
Option: Maybe someday we can have a honda generator on the trailer for long trips.
Option: Windshield please.
Option: Motorcycle style is slightly preferable to scooter style. In other words lots of storage space rather than step through frame.

Hi Dan,

Your ideal bike sounds interesting! I'm not sure I understand this last Option:

Option: Motorcycle style is slightly preferable to scooter style. In other words lots of storage space rather than step through frame.

How does a motorcycle style provide lots of storage space? Just curious.

Thanks,
John H.
Blue XM-2000
Ann Arbor, MI

My ideal bike:

Acceleration: 0-40mph in 5 seconds (to allow for in town commuting and not holding up traffic)
Top speed: 75mph (to allow for freeway use)
Torque and Power: Sufficient for two up riding and hill climbing
Size: Maxi-scooter design (something like a Vectrix, a Bergman, a Reflex or a Silverwing)
Range: 50+ miles at 55mph.
Options: better batteries to increase range (I also like Dan's idea of a trailer with either batteries or a generator)

All other questions relate to providing the above specs (I think).

I think the Vectrix gets close to all of that - however, it's too expensive for me. I'd like a bike in the $6,000 to $8,000 price range.

John H.
Blue XM-2000
Ann Arbor, MI

Well..,-
"What would your ideal E Scooter/ Motorcycle look like?"

Motorcycle style is preferable to scooter style. In other words lots of storage space rather than step through frame.
I'd rather throw my leg over a storage area than look like a "never rode a horse" type, myself. That being said, what I'd like would also look more like something "TRON" would ride!
Driven from both hubs and 20"+ wheel size,shocks able to handle a curb straight on!
A trailer hook up would give a lot of options
PV cells on all side panels and hinged at the top to be able to swing up for catching the rays when parked.
My
$0.02
:)

How does a motorcycle style provide lots of storage space? Just curious.

I was thinking you take a scooter such as the xm-2000 and put a box for storage where you currently put your legs. Then your legs will hang on the outside of the bike, like a motorcycle. Alternatively you can add extra batteries there. Does that make sense? Of course you would have to add foot stands for your feet on the outside of the scooter.

O.K. here is some more imagination: Instead of storage where you put your feet in a scooter, could someone fit a generator in there for longer trips? For short trips you have a scooter, for longer trips you have a series hybrid motorcycle, and when camping you have a generator to power your laptop. :-) Anyways, not to different then the trailer option.

Thanks for commenting.

the storage idea is something new If you'd seen what I've seen on the streets of India, well, necessity is the mother of invention, right? Often "the family car" is a vespa-style scooter -- they aren't vespa's, but instead one or more companies like Bajaj licensed the vespa design just after WWII and built their own local versions. You'll see all sorts of combinations of usage on these things.. the most alarming I saw was Dad driving, 6 yr old boy standing on the deck holding on, 4-5 yr old sister on the back seat, holding 1-2 yr old baby in her lap, none of them wearing helmets.

And on my last trip I saw the funniest arrangement ever... another of these vespa style scooters, with a cargo of leafy branches so huge the driver was hanging off the back of the bike sorta holding the branches in place with his body. I wish I'd been fast enough to get a picture because it was so strange looking.

So, yeah, storage is a good idea.... and if you were in India you wouldn't need a box on the floorboard for storage, you just pile stuff there and prop it into place as best as you can. :)

In terms of creating storage .. howzabout a frankenstein marraige between this:-

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Motorcycle_Designs/defiant.html

and this:-

http://www.xtracycle.com

- David Herron, http://davidherron.com/

Storage is a issue with us also, because we normally do lot of our shopping when we are just riding around for pleasure.
We'd also like to see a bigger trunk for starters.

Universal Deluxe Trunk with Lights
.

And it also comes in Red.

Universal X-Large Super Sized Trunk, front or top loading.

Torque is more of a concern to us than speed, there are normally a lot of hills and two lane roads were we ride with gravel shoulders.
Also some type of hazard warning lights front and rear, and mirrors that show whats behind you rather than always seeing your shoulders.
Speakers you could plug a Ipod into, rather than use those headphones.
Regenerative breaking is a must.
We'll add more latter when we complete our questionnaire, we very seldom get asked, What we want" it's normally "Take it or leave it".
Even if nothing productive actually happens with the information, it's fun dreaming. Wish more members would join in so this thread gets indexed higher and get the attention of other Vendors like Mountain Chen.