Zapino scooter at Zapworld.com

I'm still not a fan of the Silicone batteries. Anecdotal evidence suggests they don't hold up well. The ones in my Emax lasted for less than a year and a half of disciplined and relatively light use -- way less than the advertised 400-cycles. It also bothers me that there is still no after-market source for these. The Emax owners that I know replaced them with lead-acid and generally got better performance. I've looked around for the chemistry behind them. As nearly as I can tell they use a silicate compound to replace the sulfuric acid. There is still a big block of lead in there making the entire battery about as environmentally friendly as, well, lead.

I couldn't help but notice this:

Optional Upgrade: Replace with 60v40AH Lithium battery for a range of up to 87 miles

I wonder what this does to the price?
--
Full time ebiker
BionX and Wilderness Energy

We just bought a Zapino a few days ago and we really like it! My blog has more information about our tests of its range (31.2 miles), charging time (6 hours) charging efficiency (85%), etc:

http://blog.maxdunn.com/articles/category/electric-vehicles

I also started a wiki page that has some general information about scooters:

http://ev.maxwiki.com/Scooters

Max,

I'm glad you like your Zapino. I'm also glad you set up a wiki - however, after creating an account I was expecting to be able to edit the Extreme page - but I can't find how to. I'd like to post my real world findings regarding the XM-2000.

Thanks,
John H.
Blue XM-2000
Ann Arbor, MI

` ;)
Well I'm just glad they are finally being truthful, I already knew it wasn't a 3000 Watt as they initially said, but a 2500 Watt with 3000 watt max per Mountain. When I question him about what he said was a new 3000 watt I asked him again what was the Zapino and he explained it to me. So it's bascially the same as E Runner and several others being sold here already. 2500 watt Cowboys. The new 3000 watt is 4000 watt max he said.
I had a lot of respect for Zap and they really let me down.

quote]

Motor: 3000W Super efficent brushless hub motor[/quote]

The Zapino Has Arrived?

Peace Out,
Gman

What is your vision for the future our growing community?

I had several conversations over the phone with Zap's customer service rep about 6 weeks ago.
I have never seen a Zapino in person, but the sales rep told me the following:

1) The controller has a speed governor to restrict it to 30 mph. He said it is not modifiable and any references to other speeds are incorrect (I doubted this to be true, however that is what he told me multiple times).

2) The Zapino has a 2500 Watt brushless motor (I assume it is the same one that is on the e-runner 220)

3) The lithium-ion battery pack option will not be available for at least 6 months and they don't have any idea what the pricing will look like.

I asked the rep if this was the same bike as the E-Cruiser 220 that GreenEMotors.com sells. He told me he would check into it. On the follow-up phone calls he refused to answer or comment on that question. So, who knows...

Vinnie
Broomfield, CO

`maxdunn
Welcome to our V is for Voltage Community, and thanks for sharing the update.
Your also welcome to start a Max's Blog here if you like, just do a simple copy and paste.
We attemp to provide our members and guest with all the current information on all aviable models and I'm sure your Zapino information will be appreciated by everyone.

Stleride
Moderator Team Captain

Moderators are dedicated volunteer V Team members who help keep your V Forums running smoothly and provide Forum Support.

With Max's permission I updated the X-treme page at: http://ev.maxwiki.com/Extreme

John H.
Blue XM-2000
Ann Arbor, MI

It's totally frustrating to me that there isn't a decent electric scooter out there where the sales and distribution is properly controlled by an exclusive U.S. distributor. (Vectrix and possibly Lepton--if they still have a distributor--excluded.) I had been hoping that the Zapino would be an exception. Zap appears to be a relatively good company. Again, though it appears that they've been hoodwinked by Chinese manufacturers who will sell to anyone who can buy in volume.

I don't see much point in paying the $1,000 premium on this bike when Zap doesn't really understand it or appear to stand by it. Their website is completely flimsy with info and technical specs on the Zapino. I appears to be a toy to them and not a real transportation vehicle. (They seem stuck between marketing it as an electric bike and a proper scooter that needs to comply with motorcycle rules.)

It sucks for the small local dealer who might try to sell this bike when there are cheaper alternatives on the internet. The Chinese marketing strategy is a race to the bottom and it's no way to build a real vital new market for electric vehicles.

If electric scooters are ever going to succeed in the mass market they need to be higher quality and marketed through dealers, who have incentive through proper margins to support their customers. Blah! The Zapino's price is clearly set up to support this approach but Zap is totally undercut buy those who can sell the same product but aren't constrained by the same rules/marketing scheme.

Zap themselves need to step up and provide better information on this product on their website. They need to embrace this bike as a proper scooter and not try to capitalize on the ambiguity of it possibly fitting into moped or electric bike laws. I for one want an electric scooter that can go 40 to 45 mph robustly. I would sacrifice a significant amount of range to achieve this speed. I have the sense that the Zapino can do this or at least can come close, but Zap has chosen to keep the scooter restricted so they can sell to wide audience. In Europe the point of a scooter is than it is nimble and easy to ride. It can out accelerate most traffic. As an urban vehicle it doesn't need to go that far. Constraining the Zapino with moped-like performance, in the long run, is short sited.

Also, I would pay a premium for a scooter that has proper marketing models for a distribution network. It's worth it to me to support a local dealer who can learn to service a real product.

Potentially to Zap's credit. The local Zapino dealer told me that Zap has a lithium battery set that can be traded into the Zapino (again sold by Zap) that supposedly would not void their warranty. This may have been dealer enthusiasm but it didn't seem like it.

borgbike,

I for one want an electric scooter that can go 40 to 45 mph robustly.

The XM-2000 can do this. What specific issues are you concerned about with regard to it's quality? Most everything on this bike can either be upgraded or tweaked to bring it up to you satisfaction. As a dealer I can have the bike delivered to me, I can do a pre-inspection and I can fit additional equipment if you want it and then re-ship it to you. Depending on what you want will determine the cost.

In Europe the point of a scooter is than it is nimble and easy to ride. It can out accelerate most traffic.

Are you in Europe? Have you ridden a European scooter? The XM2K, Zapino & Z20 are more like 50CC+ rather than a 150CC or higher. These size of scooters are nimble and easy to ride but they do not out accelerate most traffic.

If you're in the USA then what part of the country are you in? The only part of the package you want that I can't necessarily offer is local service. You seem concerned that no-one who sells these scooters understands them. I understand the mechanical aspects (I've ridden and serviced my own bikes for 20+ years), I understand the basic principals of EVs (through my own research) and I understand the XM-2000 from actually owning one and riding it almost everyday (how many people at Zap or your local Zap dealership can say that?). If I don't know an answer relating to the service or maintenance of this bike then I am 100% confident I can find an answer or a solution within 24 to 48 hours. The one area that is out of my control - and that is out of the control of all electric moped dealers - is the registration question because things change so much from state to state. Bear in mind that any dealer of any electric scooter should be telling you all this - it's clearly stated on most all XM2K websites.

I'm considering offering a buy back option for bikes that I sell that the end user has made a good faith effort to register but can't. I'd buy the bike back from the customer at a reduced price and the customer has to cover the return shipping cost. This might not sound very generous (and it's certainly not a money back guarantee) but as you know I'm a small drop ship operation and I can only afford to share the risk with you - I cannot fully assume the risk. Again, this is more to do with the vagaries of State law than anything to do with the quality of the product.

Finally - as I stated elsewhere (but no one picked up on) - I believe that the issue is not one of price vs. quality (for this class of bike) but it is one of price vs. service. For $2000 plus $100 shipping you can have an XM2000 by the end of next week - for this price you assume all your own service needs (including following up with the distributor for new parts). For a higher price I can pre-inspect your bike, fit additional equipment and warranty my work - the price will depend on the services you request. In essence this is the same decision you make if you go to Home Depot and buy a new bathroom sink to install yourself vs. going to the yellow pages and asking a custom construction firm to do the same thing.

As far as Lithium batteries go - at the moment I can't find a source for LiFePO4 batteries that will cost less than $2500. At this price it doesn't seem like a realistic option (for the XM or the Zap). If you disagree and want LiFePO4 batteries in your XM then I can work with you on a solution. Depending on availability of parts (from US distributors) I would expect to be able to have you a workable system in place in 2 to 3 months. However, because I don't think there's a general market for this at this price I would ask for a 50% deposit upfront.

I'd be happy to do business with you. Feel free to send me a private message on this forum.

John H.
Blue XM-2000
Ann Arbor, MI

In 2004 ZAP announced they bought partial ownership in a lithium-ion battery producer in China. This gave them a portable power product. I'm sure they also used that as entree to the lithium battery industry in China. When I talked with them in 2004 (November 2004, San Francisco Autoshow) they admitted a plan to deliver EV's with lithium battery packs. If you don't want to read my rants about the temple of gas-burning that is an auto show, skip down to The singular, the prouder, the Electric though my discussion of the Ford Escape is worth reading. My point is that ZAP has had long interest in lithium battery technology among other advanced technology.

The first time I saw a fuel cell was at a ZAP shareholders meeting in maybe 2000. I've, off and on, been a shareholder of ZAP several times (currently hold 0 shares). At that meeting one of the companies developing PEM fuel cells was there demonstrating how a fuel cell could power an electric bicycle. His demo setup was a toy train set running totally from the fuel cell. It was cool, but it never went anywhere, and the guy doing the fuel cell demo was not making as broad a set of claims as Gary Starr was. Gary made it sound like ZAP was making a deal to distribute fuel cell based bicycles, whereas the guy said he was just there showing the technology.

- David Herron, http://davidherron.com/

reikiman,
Nice article, I'm holding on to all my shares and riding them out.

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Hi John,

You are all set now and can edit the wiki at http://ev.maxwiki.com. In order to avoid spam, we have the wiki setup so that people have to be approved after they signup. But we welcome everyone that would like to contribute!

--Max

Thanks Max - and your changes (to place my commentary under Testimonials) was the right thing to do. In the interests of fairness do you want to make the same changes to the Zap page? (i.e. change your comment to a testimonial) Not a big deal either way.

John H.
Blue XM-2000
Ann Arbor, MI

We are E motorcycle maker Please take a look www.lukas-two.com