Tired old Anti EV arguments...

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jdh2550_1
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The following is a (tongue-in-cheek) public service announcement...

It seems that every now and then a die-hard dinosaur* will start posting in threads about why EV's will never work. They then throw out the same old tired old arguments. What do they expect? That the readers of this forum will slap themselves on the forehead and say "Gosh, s/he's right. EV's are a complete waste of time!".

Dinosaurs I'll save you some time. It ain't ever going to happen. We are very, very, very likely to have heard your argument many, many, many times before. We think we've got an answer to your proposed issue. We might be right or we might be wrong. Chances are that we'll all just have to agree to differ. Be warned though that if you're obnoxious**** with how you choose to communicate that argument then the feisty ones amongst us will likely pour gas onto the argument before we agree to differ.

But for cryin' out loud. We've heard most of it before. If you want to offer a counter-point that's great. I've hung around these forums for 3 or more years. Most of the folks are happy to debate and discuss. Just don't expect to win many converts*** Also, be respectful of threads contents.

* Err, when I say "dinosaur" I mean well meaning folks with a contrary** point of view.

** Err, when I say "contrary" I don't mean "contrary to the universe" - I mean "contrary to a forum called V is for Voltage".

*** Perhaps you'd feel more at home on the "O is for Oil-burners" forum?

**** You likely know who you are - and if you don't then go read "Miss Manners" or something.

----

Here's a handy list of tired old arguments we've heard before.
- Electricity is dirty too so why bother with EVs?
- EV's are too expensive no one will buy them.
- EV's are so expensive you'll never get a return on investment.
- Oil won't run out any time soon so why bother with EVs?
- Global warming isn't a problem so why bother with EVs?
- EV's don't go far enough (for me) so why should anyone bother with EVs?
- Gas scooters are cheap and don't use much gas just buy one of them instead of an EV
- EV's are a fad. When the public moves on so will the manufacturers.

These are just off the top of my head. I have reasonably cogent answers for all of them. Other posters to this forum likely have different answers - some of them a lot better than mine.

If you have others that I've missed post them here. If one of 'em calls your name and you want to discuss it then do so here. If you want to call me a pompous a$$ then do so here.

However, don't bog down threads with general "EV's suck" propaganda. Go post that on "O is for Oil-Burners"...

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

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marylandbob
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Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

EVs SUCK amps, and they BLOW fuses! Not only that, they are often looking for a "HOOKUP", insist on CHARGING and their motors often WHINE! In addition to that, you might find it SHOCKING or get BURNED if you carelessly try to work on one! (It can be an ELECTRIFYING EXPERIENCE!)---Bob Curry (Owner of 3 EVs )

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Robert M. Curry

Dauntless
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Points: 220
Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

What? Do you want to strip gears, or strip wires? If you think only of positive and negative, you'll have a hard time alternating your current. (And that's the great metaphor here.)

So this old episode of 'Taxi' had Tony Danza complaining to a coworker about the apples in the vending machine being rotten in the time it took for them to work from the back to the front, wondering if they bought all the rotten apples now if that would mean they'd be fresh from now on. The coworker answered that the people stocking the machine might decide he liked rotten apples and only put those in. When Tony Danza then asked, sad faced, how he'd get fresh apples from the machine, the coworker was equally sad faced when he responded, "You won't."

But when I'm asked how you're going to get people to submit to your totalitarian will and post only what YOU want said about EV's, I'm not sad faced at all when I answer "You won't." When the woman from Plugin America came to my group of (Builders, makers, insert label here) to talk about electrics, she was so enthusiaxtic about them she wouldn't bother to come out back and see one we had in progess. Boy, did she shout at this group of people who (Were building, had built, insert activity here) EV's, which she had never done, when she was corrected again and again as she preached her little delusions about EV's. It's simply wrong for that group to allow people like this to invoke their name when they act as disinformation trolls. But then that whole group is. She won't be allowed back. Because the REAL EV people are DISCUSSING these problems, not attacking people who bring them up. The real EV people don't think it's kewl to lie about EV's just because you're lying in their favor.

And the real EV people are remembering the advice of Orson Welles, who would sell no wine before its' time. When my friend got excited about riding this electric bike I'd fixed to college twice a week (In the rain?) and saving $100 on year 'round parking passes and hundreds more on gas, I nixed it because his 20 mile commute would become an hour each way, 4 hours a week or more if he wants to meet with a teacher, etc. He works fulltime. While this unknown make Chinese scooter was 1,500 watts and probably good for the trip in a half hour, it's too big and heavy to carry upstairs to his apartment to charge. He's not ready for an electric. We will sell no wine before its' time.

I'm really holding my breath with this Nissan Leaf, this car could ruin everything. Noone who believed a Plugin America speaker who told them that an electric car charges in the time it takes you to have lunch, which I heard one say, is going to be happy when the car they bought doesn't. Emphasis on WHEN. Check this map of charging stations. http://www.evchargermaps.com/ Do you have any idea how many of those don't even work? (In my area, MOST of them.They've even built things to BLOCK a lot of them.) What few that do work even have a modern plug? (Modern in EV's is what? The last 2 years?) Then notice how most of America's chargers are in California. All these people blithely believing the hype as they buy a car near $40k that some will not be able to use as intended. Creating a whole new generation of EV detractors. This could be a disaster. It doesn't just have to work, it has to work AS INTENDED. And I'm really worrying about how many people will feel burned by their new electric car. Kudos for GM in warning people that the EV1 would have a lot of downsides, thus preventing 2,000+ leasors from being there to debunk Plugin America's little hatchet job. There would have been a lot of unhappy people STILL screaming about that awful EV1.

So as Rosanna Arquette used to say, "I'm with Toto." That big head can flash flames all it wants as it tells me to 'Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain,' I'm gonna go see what the dog saw. (And you all should read Malcolm Galdwell's 'What the Dog saw.') So you can bluster mindless emotion at me all you want, I'll always have the thinking response. And my batteries won't go dead nearly as fast as yours will. So back to the metaphors: Do you want to strip gears, or strip wires? If you think only of positive and negative, you'll have a hard time alternating your current. But if you want to bully and bluster and try to force people to say only what you want them to say, I'll tell you to go find 'F is for Failure.' I've put bullies twice my size in the cheap seats.

For those who didn't understand the last paragraph: Rosanna Arquette had a boyfriend in the band Toto, and he wrote the hit single 'Rosanna.' The band was seemingly named for the dog of Dorothy Gale, leader of The Gale Force in 'The Wizard of Oz.' In the 4th (And SO FAR the final) film version, the Wizard ceased to be a wizard at all, although he had been in the various books and the first 3 films. And it was the little dog that shattered the illusion. . . .

All of Malcolm Gladwells books come highly recommended, not just by me.
http://www.amazon.com/Malcolm-Gladwell/e/B000APOE98/ref=sr_tc_img_2_0?qid=1290495579&sr=8-2-ent

-DOUG-
Still the owner of 5 of the 12 dead EV's he resurrected, as well as averaging kudos twice as often.

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WHo dares, WINS!!!!

Dauntless
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Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

Oh, as long as we're talking about fairytales and disillusionment, the post modernist in me must point out the classic short film with the allstar cast:

Dysenchanted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2VeFQ5DHo0

If this one doesn't work, I've noticed it's on YouTube maybe a half dozen times. Some work as intended.

http://dysenchanted.com/

DysEnchanted - IMDB.com

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WHo dares, WINS!!!!

PJD
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Points: 1238
Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

John,

Some rambling (and unlike the previous posts, serious) thoughts.

The problem is, the national mood in the USA being what it is, an increasing number of USAns do believe that AGW is just a conspiracy of those "liberal" scientists to impose One World Socialist Government by the UN on us all!

Similarly, they seem to be in denial about peak oil, and believe increasing fuel prices are just because of socialistic environmental regulations.

I wish this was hyperbole, but USAns really think this way. And, we are not going to change their minds; we are far, far outgunned by the commercial corporate media that spreads this idiocy.

Are you planning to sell your scooters outside of the US? Do you have them Transport Canada certified, so you can sell them in Canada yet? I think you will have a much bigger market over there. Scooters are fairly popular in Toronto, in spite of good (but expensive) public transit and winter weather. I did see some low-powered 40 kph type electric scooters which are regulated similar to motorized bicycles in many US states, but no higher powered ones.

But, it seems that many Canadians (particularly Toronto suburbanites and everyone in Alberta) are hopping on the "global warming is a communist plot" bandwagon too.

My own argument against EV's comes from an entirely different direction. With good public transportation and the renewal of traditional walkable urban design, EV's become redundant, and the environmental and quality-of-life benefits are are even greater than merely transforming a city full of IC vehicles to electric ones. I myself only became interested in EVs (and 2 wheeled ones were the only ones I could afford) when my job moved from downtown Pittsburgh to an outer suburb - and I then moved to a suburb myself to be closer to the work site. Before then I lived in a walkable city neighborhood with frequent public transit (soon to be dismantled by our new Republican state government) and I never gave a thought about needing any other sort of intra-city transportation. In the winter, getting on a warm bus or "T" was eminently more convenient than all the digging and scraping needed to take a car anywhere.

Then again, the motor scooter was invented, and is most popular in Italian cities - and they are well transit-served and eminently walkable. So at least i think that you are in the right niche of the EV market.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

Dauntless wrote:

... a lot of hot air about a bad experience with Plug In America ...

Errr - and your point is that you had a bad experience with a PR person from Plug-in America? Wow, that's unusual - I've never ever had a salesperson over sell their position. I mean are you suggesting that only ever happens with EV's?

And you are pointing this out in response to what exactly? My point is not that you should only say nice things about EVs - my point is that you might want to try a little harder to bring well thought out discussion points and arguments with a fresh look at the problems than the tired old arguments dressed up with a bunch of hot air about PRSM and the like. Otherwise you're simply adding to the noise just like that PIA lady. You're as bad as you believe her to be. Two wrongs don't make a right (three lefts do).

Pick one of those questions and bring your best arguments to bear. Not rhetoric or cute/annoying pieces about of the people's republic. Stick to some facts. Otherwise STFU. Yeah, that's not very friendly (but it's hardly totalitarian and anyway it's my thread) - but hey, I really do want to hear the basis of your arguments not your "post-modernist-I'm-smarter-than-you" musings. You seem intelligent so surely you have something to back up your position. C'mon do you actually have a coherent argument about why EV's are too expensive? Or why the infrastructure is not there? Or do you really just want to piss and moan?

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

PJD wrote:

John,

Some rambling (and unlike the previous posts, serious) thoughts.

This is the place for them. Ramble away...

Quote:

The problem is, the national mood in the USA being what it is, an increasing number of USAns do believe that AGW is just a conspiracy of those "liberal" scientists to impose One World Socialist Government by the UN on us all!

Similarly, they seem to be in denial about peak oil, and believe increasing fuel prices are just because of socialistic environmental regulations.

I wish this was hyperbole, but USAns really think this way. And, we are not going to change their minds; we are far, far outgunned by the commercial corporate media that spreads this idiocy.

I agree with some of this - but not all. I do agree that we're not going to change their minds with a well thought out and carefully researched argument. However, we will change their minds when we show through our actions that EV's are simply a better solution for a large portion of personal transportation scenarios. We will also change their minds when we do this with affordable and practical products. And then we add sex appeal.

We're actually in a much better position to enact this change because society as a whole is much more used to a higher rate of change these days. Cell phones. Digital Cameras. Email. And about a hundred other technologies that people take for granted that have become the dominant players in other well-funded and entrenched market places.

So why not EVs?

The lowly iPod saved Apple from extinction (remember when Microsoft bought stock to save them?) Now Apple made $40B in the last quarter.

Quote:

Are you planning to sell your scooters outside of the US? Do you have them Transport Canada certified, so you can sell them in Canada yet? I think you will have a much bigger market over there. Scooters are fairly popular in Toronto, in spite of good (but expensive) public transit and winter weather. I did see some low-powered 40 kph type electric scooters which are regulated similar to motorized bicycles in many US states, but no higher powered ones.

But, it seems that many Canadians (particularly Toronto suburbanites and everyone in Alberta) are hopping on the "global warming is a communist plot" bandwagon too.

Yes, we do plan on selling outside the US. But not for a year or so yet. We'll push into the Americas - but also to Europe. The European market is 10 times the size of the US with the heaviest concentration in Spain and Italy.

Quote:

My own argument against EV's comes from an entirely different direction. With good public transportation and the renewal of traditional walkable urban design, EV's become redundant, and the environmental and quality-of-life benefits are are even greater than merely transforming a city full of IC vehicles to electric ones. I myself only became interested in EVs (and 2 wheeled ones were the only ones I could afford) when my job moved from downtown Pittsburgh to an outer suburb - and I then moved to a suburb myself to be closer to the work site. Before then I lived in a walkable city neighborhood with frequent public transit (soon to be dismantled by our new Republican state government) and I never gave a thought about needing any other sort of intra-city transportation. In the winter, getting on a warm bus or "T" was eminently more convenient than all the digging and scraping needed to take a car anywhere.

Then again, the motor scooter was invented, and is most popular in Italian cities - and they are well transit-served and eminently walkable. So at least i think that you are in the right niche of the EV market.

I think it's a question of what importance you put on convenience and the sense of freedom that personal transportation brings. Even when there's good public transportation I'm probably going to want to have personal transportation because my life doesn't fit well with a bus schedule. I work at odd hours. I run lots of little errands. If I were more disciplined I could use more public transport - but I'm not. I think it's easier to solve some of our sustainability issues with EV's than with mass transit. However, other scenarios are best served by mass transit. I'm a big fan of rail...

__________________

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

PJD
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Joined: 11/22/2006
Points: 1238
Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

I think it's a question of what importance you put on convenience and the sense of freedom that personal transportation brings. Even when there's good public transportation I'm probably going to want to have personal transportation because my life doesn't fit well with a bus schedule.

I think we need to divide the problem of personal transportation into two parts - Inter-city and countryside transportation and intra-city transportation.

I certainly enjoy the freedom my truck gives me to go on hang-gliding and hiking outings out in the countryside - there is no practical replacement to the car for this transportation need on the horizon.

But, the perception of a car providing convenience in an intra-city setting is largely a relic of the suburban model of urban development - a model that was deliberately designed to create reliance on cars, and the appalling state of public transit in the US - especially up there in the "motor state" of Michigan. When I lived in a inner Pittsburgh neighborhood, and recently in Toronto, transit was the more convenient and "free" option even when parking was free - the streetcars or buses in Toronto run one behind the other pretty much 24/7. You didn't need to check a schedule because you could usually be on one in about the same time it took to fetch a car from the parking space or garage - not including the scraping or sweeping and warming-up in winter. I got a free pass from my employer in Pittsburgh, but in Toronto the fares were high high though ($3.00) and I think this was the main motivation for scooters in the warm season.

As a thought experiment, stand on any principal thoroughfare and count the time for 50 (usually single-occupant) cars to pass. Imagine an electric streetcar or bus replacing those 50 cars - one every couple minutes at most - on every through street. Would the car still be more convenient? Which would be a far more efficient use of resources?

Now, as far as EV's, they are never going to be able to replace long-haul rural and inter-city personal transportation - only intra-city transportation. However, in this situation, I believe that there are better comprehensive solutions than EV's, particularly full-size electric cars, although scooters can still fill a niche.

And, as the public sector (except warmaking) being rapidly dismantled, it seems that no one can make money off comprehensive urban design and public transportation solutions so "free markets' are not going to come to the rescue. Considerable "deliberate inefficiencies" and externalization of environmental and social costs are needed to keep business in business. The economy depends on it.

marcopolo
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Points: 837
Re: Tired old Anti EV arguments...

John, before contributing to your interesting thread, is it just me, or everyone being annoyed by the AMISHA spam?

Anyway, IMHO, anti-EV arguments and anti-EV advocates seem to fall into two categories.

The first is the leftist-type, Grampus Enviro-pest; This malevolent little creature of goblin appearance (but Troll mannerisms), co-habits with his more nerdy companion Anorak-man. Together, these fauna specialise in siting around, whinging, criticising and sneering, in a lather of sanctimonious,self-righteous 'greener than thou' attitude. Best known for pontificating how any useful or practical EV development,is doomed,fake or immoral. This species of Grampus loves conspiracy theories, and wattles bright red at the efforts of any large, particularly US corporation, to successfully develop new technology.

On the other side of the cracker barrel, sits the rightist,(Grampus Dino): Noted for loud, red neck, pig ignorant, barking mad, commentary on, climate change disbelief, Obama's a commie, the obvious solution to the automotive fuel problem is to add a faux landau roof to the SUV, (and an extra gun rack), petrol will always be available cheaply,FOR EVER!

This creature, also known as Grampus Ostrich, co-exists with weird Utopians,complete with quixotic impractical dreams of post-apocalyptic glory.(some of these are found in the leftist camp as well) These creatures seem to favour the woody ground between the two camps, and often congregate in a tree house with a mysterious tribe of visiting and disappearing RMCs.

Intermixed are various sub-species, each with some pathetic little distraction, reflective of their inadequate personalities.

Gliding through the herd,culling out the more gullible, is Grampus Scamus. This handsome shiny creature, can be disguised by his sleek, oily appearance and gleaming teeth. the origins of this species are lost in time, but can be found feeding in both camps with an innocent and puzzled expression as to the origin of their victims injuries. Even more surprising is the large number of the victims herd who seem eager to defend the predator in their midst.

I may have missed some, but this seems to cover most of the major species.

With any luck, these totally negative creative creatures may all wander into the most toxic centre of the gulf oil spill and become extinct.

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marcopolo

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